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What the . . . ? Fattie adjusting screws!



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 8th 04, 03:13 AM
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
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Default What the . . . ? Fattie adjusting screws!

Several months ago I bought a Gene Berg swivel screw ("elephant foot")
valve adjuster kit for the Wonderbus. Didn't install the kit because
that engine blew up. I purchased a replacement 1600 DP engine in Mexico
and put it in the Wonderbus and it has been peachy ever since. Today I
got around to pulling the rocker assemblies off the new engine with an
eye toward installing the swivel foots and discovered that the newer
rocker arms take M10 adjusting screws. But the GB kit is set up for
rockers with M8 thread.

I stared and harrumphed for a while, then disconsolately put the rocker
assembly back onto the engine with the factory adjusting screws. They
are already becoming faceted so I want to sort out this little issue out
promptly.

Berg's website makes no mention of the swivel set coming with anything
other than M8 adjusters, so I reckon I need to install rockers with M8
threads (I have e-mailed them requesting advice). The old engine's
rockers have a lot of fretting where the rocker bears against the rocker
axle, so I don't want to use them.

So, sign me,

"Seeking a set of good-quality factory stock-ratio rocker arms that take
the M8 adjusting screw that are either new or in wonderful condition."

This is a bus -- don't need ratio or fancy billet valve train bits.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

Actual Test Answers Music Teachers Have Received, #19:
Question: What are kettle drums called? Answer: Kettle drums.
------------------------------------
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  #2  
Old December 8th 04, 10:10 AM
Jan
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Posts: n/a
Default



"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" wrote:


> The old engine's rockers have a lot of fretting where the rocker bears against the rocker
> axle, so I don't want to use them.



Turn the axle shafts "upside down" to get the rocker to ride against a
smooth, non-worn side of it.
Note that you may need to drill the stud holes a little bigger (not all
the way through!) to allow room for the thicker base of ths stud. Study
the other end of the hole, you'll see a step cut.

Or just buy new shafts or whole assemblies and eliminate all your
problems

Jan
  #3  
Old December 8th 04, 12:50 PM
Bill Spiliotopoulos
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Posts: n/a
Default

For a stock application, stock rockers and adjusting screws are fine. It is
normal for the adjusting screws to become faceted.
Anyway, either with the Berg adjusting screws you would have to check valve
clearances on every oil change, to motitor exhaust valve stretching. In case
you decide to install them, keep in mind that you should keep the stock
valve geometry, and to do this you will have to grind the rocker arms. Do
not put spacers under the rocker towers.

Bill,
'67 Bug.


"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et> wrote in message
...
> Several months ago I bought a Gene Berg swivel screw ("elephant foot")
> valve adjuster kit for the Wonderbus. Didn't install the kit because that
> engine blew up. I purchased a replacement 1600 DP engine in Mexico and put
> it in the Wonderbus and it has been peachy ever since. Today I got around
> to pulling the rocker assemblies off the new engine with an eye toward
> installing the swivel foots and discovered that the newer rocker arms take
> M10 adjusting screws. But the GB kit is set up for rockers with M8 thread.
>
> I stared and harrumphed for a while, then disconsolately put the rocker
> assembly back onto the engine with the factory adjusting screws. They are
> already becoming faceted so I want to sort out this little issue out
> promptly.
>
> Berg's website makes no mention of the swivel set coming with anything
> other than M8 adjusters, so I reckon I need to install rockers with M8
> threads (I have e-mailed them requesting advice). The old engine's rockers
> have a lot of fretting where the rocker bears against the rocker axle, so
> I don't want to use them.
>
> So, sign me,
>
> "Seeking a set of good-quality factory stock-ratio rocker arms that take
> the M8 adjusting screw that are either new or in wonderful condition."
>
> This is a bus -- don't need ratio or fancy billet valve train bits.
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
> KG6RCR
> ------------------------------------
> Today's Deep Thought:
>
> Actual Test Answers Music Teachers Have Received, #19:
> Question: What are kettle drums called? Answer: Kettle drums.
> ------------------------------------



  #4  
Old December 8th 04, 05:35 PM
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 12/8/2004 1:10 AM Jan stood on a soap-box and preached to the
unwashed masses:

>
> "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" wrote:
>
>
>
>>The old engine's rockers have a lot of fretting where the rocker bears against the rocker
>>axle, so I don't want to use them.

>
>
>
> Turn the axle shafts "upside down" to get the rocker to ride against a
> smooth, non-worn side of it.
> Note that you may need to drill the stud holes a little bigger (not all
> the way through!) to allow room for the thicker base of ths stud. Study
> the other end of the hole, you'll see a step cut.
>
> Or just buy new shafts or whole assemblies and eliminate all your
> problems


These /are/ new shafts/assemblies on the new engine and are in tip-top
condition. I want to stick on the Berg swivel feet but they are set up
for M8 threads, whereas these new rockers are threaded for M10. So how
would buying new assemblies help? I may be overlooking something.

--
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated but not be able to say it.
------------------------------------
  #5  
Old December 8th 04, 05:40 PM
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 12/8/2004 3:50 AM Bill Spiliotopoulos stood on a soap-box and
preached to the unwashed masses:

> For a stock application, stock rockers and adjusting screws are fine. It is
> normal for the adjusting screws to become faceted.
> Anyway, either with the Berg adjusting screws you would have to check valve
> clearances on every oil change, to motitor exhaust valve stretching. In case
> you decide to install them, keep in mind that you should keep the stock
> valve geometry, and to do this you will have to grind the rocker arms. Do
> not put spacers under the rocker towers.
>


The advantage to the swivels is that the ends of the adjusting screws do
not get faceted. As I understand it, once the tip is faceted, accurate
valve adjustment is very hard to accomplish. So I'm either replacing
adjusting screws (M10 ones? are they easily available?) or living with
sloppy valve adjustment.

So the Berg setup -- shims under the towers -- is bogus? I know that the
valve geometry must get disturbed by the shims, but this is a 1600DP on
a bus with standard valves and non-ratio rockers, etc. I don't think
that this slight change to the geometry will affect my performance.

Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

Sevareid's Rule: "The chief cause of problems is solutions."
------------------------------------
  #6  
Old December 8th 04, 06:22 PM
Hal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"The advantage to the swivels is that the ends of the adjusting screws
do
not get faceted. As I understand it, once the tip is faceted, accurate
valve adjustment is very hard to accomplish."

Agreed. Once the tip of the screw starts to flatten out a bit, you do
the obvious..turn it in to reduce the clearance. But that also presents
a new 'unworn' portion of the screw, so your lash adjustment becomes
tedious. The clearance goes away very quickly; the new surface on the
screw is higher than the worn spot, and the screw is moving towards the
valve stem at the same time.

"So the Berg setup -- shims under the towers -- is bogus? "

No. I've used the berg shims. You don't want to use washers because
that can cause the rocker tower to fracture, but using a berg shim
which covers the entire surface is not a problem in my opinion. I don't
like the fact that the berg shims are a press-fit on the studs, Berg
says they need to be like that..I disagree. I usually drill them out
just a tad so they slip on easily. I visually check to make sure they
remain lined up as I tighten down the rocker shaft.

"Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?"

No idea. Have you confirmed that berg does not offer the swivel
adjusters in the larger thread? If you haven't run the M8 sized ones
yet maybe they will exchange them for you?

Chris

  #7  
Old December 8th 04, 08:16 PM
Jan Andersson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" wrote:
>
> On 12/8/2004 1:10 AM Jan stood on a soap-box and preached to the
> unwashed masses:
>
> >
> > "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>The old engine's rockers have a lot of fretting where the rocker bears against the rocker
> >>axle, so I don't want to use them.

> >
> >
> >
> > Turn the axle shafts "upside down" to get the rocker to ride against a
> > smooth, non-worn side of it.
> > Note that you may need to drill the stud holes a little bigger (not all
> > the way through!) to allow room for the thicker base of ths stud. Study
> > the other end of the hole, you'll see a step cut.
> >
> > Or just buy new shafts or whole assemblies and eliminate all your
> > problems

>
> These /are/ new shafts/assemblies on the new engine and are in tip-top
> condition. I want to stick on the Berg swivel feet but they are set up
> for M8 threads, whereas these new rockers are threaded for M10. So how
> would buying new assemblies help? I may be overlooking something.
>
> --


OOps, I need to take a few reading comprehension classes myself.
Disregard anything and everything I said

Jan
  #8  
Old December 8th 04, 08:51 PM
Bill Spiliotopoulos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> The advantage to the swivels is that the ends of the adjusting screws do
> not get faceted. As I understand it, once the tip is faceted, accurate
> valve adjustment is very hard to accomplish.


Not very hard, just a bit less accurate, but nothing to worry about. You
can replace or resurface the adjusting screws by wiping on sandpaper every
3-4 oil changes if you want.

You can adjust just a bit tighter (so that the feeler gauge slides tightly)
to compensate for the wearing in in the new position. Anyway, don't worry
so much about extra accurate settings, even the feeler gauges don't have
100% accurate thicknesses. They usually are 10-20% off their nominal
thickness. Try to measure one with a micrometer and you'll see. Try not to
have less than about 0.15mm valve lash the engine will be happy. With more
valve lash the valve noise increases and if exesive you might lose a bit of
power.

>
> So the Berg setup -- shims under the towers -- is bogus? I know that the
> valve geometry must get disturbed by the shims, but this is a 1600DP on a
> bus with standard valves and non-ratio rockers, etc. I don't think that
> this slight change to the geometry will affect my performance.


It doesn't have to do as much with performance, as with valve guide wear.
Maybe sims or spacers don't alter the geometry too much, but why go worse
than stock? The idea is to do modifications the right way in order to
improve things.
If you find that spacers are needed, the entire valve geometry must be
rechecked. Otherwise, it is better to stay with the stock adjusters.


Bill,
'67 Bug.


  #9  
Old December 8th 04, 08:57 PM
Bill Spiliotopoulos
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Posts: n/a
Default

> Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
> condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?


I don't know where you can find, I live in Greece so I won't be able to help
on this one.
But I believe that most probably you wouldn't have a problem using your old
rockers on the new shafts. It is normal for the rockers to get polished at
the load side (bottom) but this is not to worry, expept if they are really
really worn and they have noticeable sideways when fited on the shafts.

Bill,
'67 Bug.

>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
> KG6RCR
> ------------------------------------
> Today's Deep Thought:
>
> Sevareid's Rule: "The chief cause of problems is solutions."
> ------------------------------------



  #10  
Old December 8th 04, 10:34 PM
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 12/8/2004 9:22 AM Hal stood on a soap-box and preached to the
unwashed masses:

>
> "Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
> condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?"
>
> No idea. Have you confirmed that berg does not offer the swivel
> adjusters in the larger thread? If you haven't run the M8 sized ones
> yet maybe they will exchange them for you?


They don't list anything but the M8 on their site, and they've not yet
responded to my e-mailed inquiry of yesterday. We await patiently.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
 




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