Will switching from Synthetic to Dyno oil harm my engine?

In article >, Steve > wrote:
>And in fact it DID test well in that LS-1 long-term test (I belive its
>linked somewhere from bobistheoilguy.com). But, in the long haul it
>didn't hold up quite as well as Mobil 1 (excessive viscosity increase,
>and lost its TBN much faster despite starting at a HIGHER TBN number
>than Mobil 1).

The one at http://neptune.spacebears.com ?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Philip wrote:
>
>> Huw wrote:
>
>>>
>>>They may do but only in their combined diesel rating, which marks
>>>them out as being superior. For instance, I use a mutifleet oil that
>>>combines API SL with API CH4 heavy duty diesel long drain
>>>specification. This is a much better oil than plain SL but SL is the
>>>only quoted petrol engine standard on the [rather large] can.
>>
>>
>> That is my point (from a couple of lines up). Anyone shopping the
>> automotive retail shelves in America will find mostly API SL with no
>> diesel approvals at all.
>
> Oh fercryinoutloud! Its quite easy to find diesel-approved oil anywhrere
> in the US. Both synthetic and conventional.
>
> My entry into this discussion came about because a picture of a sludged-up
> GASOLINE engine was used to imply that the "reality" as opposed to the
> "theory" of extended drain intervals would inevitably lead to that kind of
> thing. It does not.
>
>>
>> Agreed. I wish alternative "above the API minimum" approvals were the
>> norm here. As is, the only clues you have are the infrequent diesel
>> designation
>
> Or you can read the oil analysis web pages. The fact that US-marketed oils
> are not MARKED above the API standard does not in any way imply that many
> oils sold in the US do not indeed exceed those standards by a wide margin.
>

I agree. Most standards met by an oil are not printed on the can and can
only be found in more detailed literature and their product data sheets. It
should be noted however that there seems to be greater detail readily
available in Europe where ISTM there is a greater appreciation generally of
oil gradation as opposed to most Americans [on Usenet at any rate] who seem
to appreciate only a crude difference between mineral and synthetic, while
not appreciating that for specific applications a particular mineral oil
could be more suitable than a particular synthetic depending on the
standards met by them. All I tend to hear is the question 'is synthetic
better than mineral?' not 'is GM long life spec oil better or broadly
compatible to BMW long life spec oil and how do these compare with VW506
01?' or similar question, as should be the case in a sophisticated
discussion.

The only American that I have ever observed to wish to know anything above a
basic level about oil is Philip. Obviously there must be a huge knowledge
base within the oil industry over there but if Usenet is representative then
most opinions here on Usenet are nearly baseless, or based on conjecture or
tradition or with an exaggerated importance given to base oil type with
little regard to the *standards* met by the end user product. Indeed, I feel
that most Americans think that I am from another planet when I post about
15000 to 20,000 mile oil change intervals being commonplace. Maybe they
think that I must mean 1500 to 2000 miles. Others seem to draw the
conclusion that I am trying to get them to change their Toyota Camry's [for
instance] oil at those intervals, whereas in fact I advocate changing at the
manufacturers recommended intervals while pointing out that they could use a
better oil to achieve this with an added safety margin or that an interval
might well be specified for an easy life in a geographical area.*** This
might not even mean changing to a synthetic oil or even changing at all if
their present oil is more than adequate.
Another gripe, while I am about it, is that 'more than adequate' is often
taken to mean that there could be some gain from using 'something better'.
In most cases there is just no advantage from using an oil that is just so
much better than needed or specified by the engine manufacturer.

***It would surely lead to an easier and less controversial life for
European manufacturers if, in the American market, they followed local
tradition and had an initial oil change at 500 miles and a regular change
every 3000 miles thereafter. No one would comment on this one way or
another. Instead they choose not to compromise and use appropriate monitored
intervals as used in Europe. They invite, in a way, the occasional sheep who
has a strong opinion, to find pictures of an engine overwhelmed with sludge,
regardless of the true story behind the picture, to rubbish the superior
technology and reaffirm the 3000/5000 mile status quo as they see it.
Perverse human nature in action.


Huw

Steve wrote:
> Philip wrote:
>
>> Huw wrote:
>
>>>
>>> They may do but only in their combined diesel rating, which marks
>>> them out as being superior. For instance, I use a mutifleet oil that
>>> combines API SL with API CH4 heavy duty diesel long drain
>>> specification. This is a much better oil than plain SL but SL is the
>>> only quoted petrol engine standard on the [rather large] can.
>>
>>
>> That is my point (from a couple of lines up). Anyone shopping the
>> automotive retail shelves in America will find mostly API SL with no
>> diesel approvals at all.
>
> Oh fercryinoutloud! Its quite easy to find diesel-approved oil
> anywhrere in the US. Both synthetic and conventional.

Steve. This thread has evolved a bit higher than you can appreciate right
now. Sit back and learn the nuances of API oils having no diesel
designation, fleet oils, and European ratings.

> My entry into this discussion came about because a picture of a
> sludged-up GASOLINE engine was used to imply that the "reality" as
> opposed to the "theory" of extended drain intervals would inevitably
> lead to that kind of thing. It does not.

It does lead to sludged engines. The 'extension' is by degree. Is 25k
miles "extended"? How about 15k miles? Maybe 40k miles? Use determines
the interval ... not your abitrary choice.

>> Agreed. I wish alternative "above the API minimum" approvals were
>> the norm here. As is, the only clues you have are the infrequent
>> diesel designation
>
> Or you can read the oil analysis web pages. The fact that US-marketed
> oils are not MARKED above the API standard does not in any way imply
> that many oils sold in the US do not indeed exceed those standards by
> a wide margin.

You are woefully ignorant of (for example) Mercedes Benz oil rating system
and how various API SL rated oils measure up when tested above API minumums.
Sit back and shut up while Huw educates you ... if possible. I'll let you
have the last word.
--

- Philip

Timothy J. Lee wrote:
> In article et>,
> Philip > wrote:
>> Rotella T, Delo-400, Mobil Delvac ... those are your MAINSTREAM
>> diesel oils. Just visit any truck stop to see for yourself.
>> Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 is very rare in truck stops as is Delvac
>> 1300.
>
> Wal Mart has carried Shell Rotella T Synthetic for a few years now
> (alongside the non-synthetic Rotella, Delo 400, and Delvac 1300).
> It may also carry Mobil 1 "Truck and SUV" that is widely believed to
> be rebottled Mobil Delvac 1 (spec sheets look very similar, and the
> Mobil 1 "Truck and SUV" does have the API CI-4 rating).

I stand corrected. Mobil Delvac 1 is the synthetic whereas, Mobil Delvac
1300 is a conventional oil.

The Mobil Delvac 1 is very rare in truck stops as is Shell Rotella
synthetic.
--

- Philip

"Philip" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Steve wrote:
>> Philip wrote:
>>
>>> Huw wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> They may do but only in their combined diesel rating, which marks
>>>> them out as being superior. For instance, I use a mutifleet oil that
>>>> combines API SL with API CH4 heavy duty diesel long drain
>>>> specification. This is a much better oil than plain SL but SL is the
>>>> only quoted petrol engine standard on the [rather large] can.
>>>
>>>
>>> That is my point (from a couple of lines up). Anyone shopping the
>>> automotive retail shelves in America will find mostly API SL with no
>>> diesel approvals at all.
>>
>> Oh fercryinoutloud! Its quite easy to find diesel-approved oil
>> anywhrere in the US. Both synthetic and conventional.
>
> Steve. This thread has evolved a bit higher than you can appreciate right
> now. Sit back and learn the nuances of API oils having no diesel
> designation, fleet oils, and European ratings



>
>> My entry into this discussion came about because a picture of a
>> sludged-up GASOLINE engine was used to imply that the "reality" as
>> opposed to the "theory" of extended drain intervals would inevitably
>> lead to that kind of thing. It does not.
>
> It does lead to sludged engines. The 'extension' is by degree. Is 25k
> miles "extended"? How about 15k miles? Maybe 40k miles? Use determines
> the interval ... not your abitrary choice.

Any of these may be 'extended' intervals if they exceed the manufacturers
recommendation. It follows that if they are within the recommendation then
they are not extended interval, only possibly longer intervals than have
been traditional within your father's and your lifetime thus far.





>
>>> Agreed. I wish alternative "above the API minimum" approvals were
>>> the norm here. As is, the only clues you have are the infrequent
>>> diesel designation
>>
>> Or you can read the oil analysis web pages. The fact that US-marketed
>> oils are not MARKED above the API standard does not in any way imply
>> that many oils sold in the US do not indeed exceed those standards by
>> a wide margin.
>
> You are woefully ignorant of (for example) Mercedes Benz oil rating system
> and how various API SL rated oils measure up when tested above API
> minumums. Sit back and shut up while Huw educates you ... if possible.
> I'll let you have the last word.

Not me. I have a life to lead. A fairly hectic and stressed life with much
more to it than oil. My wife is a teacher and she takes no ****!

Huw

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, JP wrote:
>
>> > I will not stop calling them "Scamsoil" until their hordes of
>> > pyramid-crazed, True-Believer salesdroids disappear.
>>
>> If it were pyramid, it would be illegal.
>
> Riiiiiight, *nudge nudge* it's not pyramidal *wink wink* it's "multi-level
> marketing".

Like all other retail sales, unless you buy directly from the producer.

Huw wrote:
> "Philip" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>> Steve wrote:
>>> My entry into this discussion came about because a picture of a
>>> sludged-up GASOLINE engine was used to imply that the "reality" as
>>> opposed to the "theory" of extended drain intervals would inevitably
>>> lead to that kind of thing. It does not.
>>
>> It does lead to sludged engines. The 'extension' is by degree. Is
>> 25k miles "extended"? How about 15k miles? Maybe 40k miles? Use
>> determines the interval ... not your abitrary choice.
>
> Any of these may be 'extended' intervals if they exceed the
> manufacturers recommendation. It follows that if they are within the
> recommendation then they are not extended interval, only possibly
> longer intervals than have been traditional within your father's and
> your lifetime thus far.

In a legalistic vein, oil services performed WITHIN a manufacturers
recommendation (which we all know is very broad) are by definition ... not
.... extended. But of course, an engine may be operated under conditions
where "extended" is wholely inappropriate.

>>> Or you can read the oil analysis web pages. The fact that
>>> US-marketed oils are not MARKED above the API standard does not in
>>> any way imply that many oils sold in the US do not indeed exceed
>>> those standards by a wide margin.
>>
>> You are woefully ignorant of (for example) Mercedes Benz oil rating
>> system and how various API SL rated oils measure up when tested
>> above API minumums. Sit back and shut up while Huw educates you ...
>> if possible. I'll let you have the last word.
>
> Not me. I have a life to lead. A fairly hectic and stressed life with
> much more to it than oil. My wife is a teacher and she takes no ****!
>
> Huw

Oh come on Huw! LOL

BTW, I ran across this blurb on the Mobil website:

-> Features & Benefits
Modern high output, *low* emission diesel engines generate *higher* levels
of soot and run at higher temperatures than older, naturally aspirated
engines, which significantly increases the demands on engine lubricants.
Current engine designs reduce oil consumption, resulting in less fresh oil
makeup to replenish depleted additives. Top piston rings are located higher
on the piston bringing the oil film closer to the combustion chamber where
higher temperatures increase thermal stress on the lubricant. Higher fuel
injector pressure and retarded timing improve exhaust emission control, but
also increase engine temperatures and increase soot loads, including those
engines operating with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR).
->

Well, the ol Nissan SD22 has an EGR (that I disconnected), is naturally
aspirated, and has the injection timing back up at 18 degrees (instead of
the 7 degrees BTDC when I got the truck). It's also running current
formulation Delo 400 ... not the stuff that was available back in 1982. So
with these soot contributors corrected, should not the oil take more miles
to get fouled than without these "corrections?" HA! Could have fooled me!
--

- Philip

"Philip" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Huw wrote:
>> "Philip" > wrote in message
>> link.net...
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>> My entry into this discussion came about because a picture of a
>>>> sludged-up GASOLINE engine was used to imply that the "reality" as
>>>> opposed to the "theory" of extended drain intervals would inevitably
>>>> lead to that kind of thing. It does not.
>>>
>>> It does lead to sludged engines. The 'extension' is by degree. Is
>>> 25k miles "extended"? How about 15k miles? Maybe 40k miles? Use
>>> determines the interval ... not your abitrary choice.
>>
>> Any of these may be 'extended' intervals if they exceed the
>> manufacturers recommendation. It follows that if they are within the
>> recommendation then they are not extended interval, only possibly
>> longer intervals than have been traditional within your father's and
>> your lifetime thus far.
>
> In a legalistic vein, oil services performed WITHIN a manufacturers
> recommendation (which we all know is very broad) are by definition ... not
> ... extended. But of course, an engine may be operated under conditions
> where "extended" is wholely inappropriate.
>
>>>> Or you can read the oil analysis web pages. The fact that
>>>> US-marketed oils are not MARKED above the API standard does not in
>>>> any way imply that many oils sold in the US do not indeed exceed
>>>> those standards by a wide margin.
>>>
>>> You are woefully ignorant of (for example) Mercedes Benz oil rating
>>> system and how various API SL rated oils measure up when tested
>>> above API minumums. Sit back and shut up while Huw educates you ...
>>> if possible. I'll let you have the last word.
>>
>> Not me. I have a life to lead. A fairly hectic and stressed life with
>> much more to it than oil. My wife is a teacher and she takes no ****!
>>
>> Huw
>
> Oh come on Huw! LOL

I need to wind down after a hectic and rewarding period of work. I really do
feel a bit burnt out and a week or so off my main job will do me good.
However, my wife is also off work so will ensure I stay away from the 'puter
as much as possible.

>
> BTW, I ran across this blurb on the Mobil website:
>
> -> Features & Benefits
> Modern high output, *low* emission diesel engines generate *higher* levels
> of soot and run at higher temperatures than older, naturally aspirated
> engines, which significantly increases the demands on engine lubricants.

Higher temperatures, yes. You and I both know that they actually produce
less soot by far, especially compared with indirect injection engines,
although they may deposit slightly more in the oil than stage 11 standard
engines due to timing issues primarily.



> Current engine designs reduce oil consumption, resulting in less fresh oil
> makeup to replenish depleted additives.

Most of my many engines require very little, if any, oil between service
intervals. This has been true back to the 1970's although I have had the
occassional engine which needs a quart every thousand miles or so.



Top piston rings are located higher
> on the piston bringing the oil film closer to the combustion chamber where
> higher temperatures increase thermal stress on the lubricant.

True


Higher fuel
> injector pressure and retarded timing improve exhaust emission control,
> but also increase engine temperatures and increase soot loads, including
> those engines operating with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR).

Also true and combined with significantly improved output per litre
displacement as a result.



> ->
>
> Well, the ol Nissan SD22 has an EGR (that I disconnected), is naturally
> aspirated, and has the injection timing back up at 18 degrees (instead of
> the 7 degrees BTDC when I got the truck). It's also running current
> formulation Delo 400 ... not the stuff that was available back in 1982.
> So with these soot contributors corrected, should not the oil take more
> miles to get fouled than without these "corrections?" HA! Could have
> fooled me!

This engine is a somewhat cleaner example than my Land Rover 67hp 2.5 litre.
In fact I know your engine family very well having a 2.5 litre version
[TD25] naturally aspirated fitted to a skid steer loader, a Nissan Dodich,
and still having one of three 2.7 litre turbo versions of the family working
daily [TD27T] in a Nissan Terrano.
In fact these have 6000 mile service intervals here using high detergent
oil. As you know, I use API CH4 oil which is an SHPD specification heavy
duty long drain specification. With this oil I can be confident that even if
I drive a few weeks over the recommended interval, the oil can stand it and
no harm will be done. In the Land Rover however, 5000 miles is religiously
followed due to the soot deposits which tended to overwhelm lesser oils at
5000 miles and threatened to turn it into a thick sludge. It is fairly
spectacular to observe the difference between SHPD oil and API CE in this
application at 5000 miles. The lesser oils actually start to clump with a
thick lumpiness.



I have another heavy duty engine which can break down the viscosity of CE
oil well within 200 hours to the consistency of water but which has no
problem with SHPD oil. This engine runs so hot that when a piston oil spray
nozzle failed last Summer the piston melted into small alloy beads and the
cylinder burst and also broke the head. There were no deposits and no
noticeable wear of any other components in this engine and all cylinders
were stripped just in case. Luckily it has individually replaceable pots and
heads.

Huw

Steve wrote:

> I have observed the same with my 1969 Dodge 440 and my 1973
> Plymouth 318 as well,

Oh man, am I jealous. I just loved my Mopars from those days. Bodies
rusted away and I dumped the cars - made me very sad.

Frank

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Steve Bigelow wrote:

>>>> Scamsoil's pyramid-crazed, True-Believer salesdroids

>>> If it were pyramid, it would be illegal.

>> Riiiiiight, *nudge nudge* it's not pyramidal *wink wink* it's "multi-level
>> marketing".
>
> Like all other retail sales, unless you buy directly from the producer.

Er...no. Not like any other retail sales at all, actually.

If I were dumb/ignorant/brainwashed/gullible enough to buy five quarts of
Scamsoil, and didn't happen to be near any of the few parts stores
Scamsoil has conned into shelfstocking their products, I'd have to meet up
with the "dealer" in a parking lot somewhere, or at his home, or at a
booth at the weekend flea market. He'd give me the total for the five
quarts of Scamsoil, and then would come The Pitch. "Of course, if you join
my LubeClub, I can take fifteen percent off that price. To become a
LubeClub member, you just have to buy ten quarts and two oil filters. But
the better deal is if I set you up as a dealer...here, take a look...",
etc. etc. BS BS BS.

When I buy five quarts of Mobil-1, the cashier rings them up, tells me the
total, I pay and leave. That's it. The cashier doesn't pressure me to join
any clubs or become a Mobil-1 dealer or any other such crapola.

How do I know? Easy: I used to be ignorant enough to buy Scamsoil. The
thing about ignorance, though, is that it's curable. Education is the
cure.