Electric Spark noise from under dash when turning ignition key

2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.

Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay under
the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?

I took it to the dealership today and they told me (without hearing, just
based on description) that that is normal and all hondas do that.

If this is normal - does it cause premature relay contacts wear out from all
this sparking?

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:

> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>
> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
> under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?



Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light
comes on and goes off?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote in message
...
>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>>
>> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some relay
>> under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than normal?
>
>
>
> Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine light
> comes on and goes off?

No, "check engine" light stays solid on when sparking can be heard.

It seems to me that this is not fully engaged starter relay.

When I am moving the key slowly to the start position first I hear
one subtle relay click which blanks off the radio panel, when I do
continue slowly turning the key I hear second subtle relay click
which turns off the blower motor and then, when I continue to
turn the key slowly I hear the fountain of electric sparks sounds
and then the starter engages and the motor starts with no problem.

Is there a starter motor relay under my dash on the left side of
the steering column? Is it possible that this is what I hear?

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:

> "Tegger" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> 2004 Accord 2 door EX-L.
>>>
>>> Is it normal that I hear some heavy electric sparking from some
>>> relay under the dashboard when I turn the ignition key slower than
>>> normal?
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you hear the "sparking" at the very same time as the Check Engine
>> light comes on and goes off?
>
> No, "check engine" light stays solid on when sparking can be heard.
>
> It seems to me that this is not fully engaged starter relay.
>
> When I am moving the key slowly to the start position first I hear
> one subtle relay click which blanks off the radio panel, when I do
> continue slowly turning the key I hear second subtle relay click
> which turns off the blower motor and then, when I continue to
> turn the key slowly I hear the fountain of electric sparks sounds
> and then the starter engages and the motor starts with no problem.
>
> Is there a starter motor relay under my dash on the left side of
> the steering column? Is it possible that this is what I hear?
>
>



Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.

I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz.

The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the
switch to each position fairly quickly.

What happens if you
1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?

Any "sparking" noise now? Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light
comes on and goes off?

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote in message
...
> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
>
> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to buzz.

Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place?
It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition
contacts!

Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent current
flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger current and now
much more audible buzzing sound.

This arcing over time would cause relays to burn...

> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn the
> switch to each position fairly quickly.

Hm...

I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in my
other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or
sparks... At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue starting.

Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...

Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?

> What happens if you
> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>
> Any "sparking" noise now?
> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?

No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
*quickly*.
Just starter engages and the engine starts.

Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be there
when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms instead of
500ms).
Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature failure...

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:

> "Tegger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
>>
>> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to
>> buzz.
>
> Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place?



Because you're forcing the relay's contacts to just barely make contact
for too long. It's possible to do this with ANY relay if you do things
"just so".



> It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition
> contacts!




No, you're simply turning the key too slowly.

Why are you doing this? Are you /trying/ to find trouble where there is
none?



>
> Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent
> current flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger
> current and now much more audible buzzing sound.
>
> This arcing over time would cause relays to burn...




Well sure, if you insist on being silly about it.

In normal use most drivers simply twist the ignition switch right around
from "0" to "III" without any pauses at all. (That in itself is bad, but
for different reasons.)



>
>> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
>> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn
>> the switch to each position fairly quickly.
>
> Hm...
>
> I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in
> my other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or
> sparks...



Different setup. Toyota only engages the fuel pump once the engine is
turning, so no current will flow until the engine cranks.





> At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
> about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
> the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue
> starting.



Of course. At some point you will complete the circuit to the starter
solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to
find problems where none exist.



>
> Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
> the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...




You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world.
Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what
you do.




>
> Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?



In the days when Honda combined two relays into one, yes. But that was
due to the sheer mass of that combination, which mass caused the famous
Honda PGM-FI Main Relay problems for so many years. That problem and its
solution remains one of the most popular pages on my site.

But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like
everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good.



>
>> What happens if you
>> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
>> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
>> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>>
>> Any "sparking" noise now?
>> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?
>
> No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
> *quickly*.
> Just starter engages and the engine starts.



Then everything's just dandy.

Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do
you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you
want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming?



>
> Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
> The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be
> there when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms
> instead of 500ms).
> Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature
> failure...
>


It doesn't work that way, sorry.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Tegger" > wrote in message
...
> "Pszemol" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "Tegger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Your Main Relay/s is/are in fact in that location.
>>>
>>> I think you may be turning the key TOO slowly, causing the relay to
>>> buzz.
>>
>> Why is it buzzing instead of staying on in place?
>
>
>
> Because you're forcing the relay's contacts to just barely make contact
> for too long. It's possible to do this with ANY relay if you do things
> "just so".
>
>
>
>> It looks to me that too much current is flowing through the ignition
>> contacts!
>
>
>
>
> No, you're simply turning the key too slowly.
>
> Why are you doing this? Are you /trying/ to find trouble where there is
> none?
>
>
>
>>
>> Too much current causes sparks and arcing intermittent/nonexistent
>> current flow through the starter relay, which controls much bigger
>> current and now much more audible buzzing sound.
>>
>> This arcing over time would cause relays to burn...
>
>
>
>
> Well sure, if you insist on being silly about it.
>
> In normal use most drivers simply twist the ignition switch right around
> from "0" to "III" without any pauses at all. (That in itself is bad, but
> for different reasons.)
>
>
>
>>
>>> The ignition switch is not meant to be between positions for extended
>>> lengths of time except during troubleshooting. You are meant to turn
>>> the switch to each position fairly quickly.
>>
>> Hm...
>>
>> I just checked - no matter how slow I try to turn the ignition key in
>> my other car (toyota camry) I am UNABLE to cause any buzzing noise or
>> sparks...
>
>
>
> Different setup. Toyota only engages the fuel pump once the engine is
> turning, so no current will flow until the engine cranks.


Well, not sure if this is the fuel pump problem... it does not consume
so much current as the starter motor does. I suspect this to be the 'starter
cut relay' which is buzzing in my car.

In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram
which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which
is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also
the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the
starter switch into the ON position.

When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota
camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point
of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered
from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing
power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery
and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing
through the ignition switch in toyota.

>> At some moment the starter engages and I cannot do anything
>> about it other than just release the pressure on the key and disengage
>> the starter or just keep pressing the ignition key and continue
>> starting.
>
>
>
> Of course. At some point you will complete the circuit to the starter
> solenoid and the starter will engage. You must /really/ be trying to
> find problems where none exist.

I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat
the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact
and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and
it is turning.

But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key
the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak
ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay coil
AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS!
This should not happen!

I wonder how this wiring diagram looks like in the newer models.
Tegger, do you have any newer Accord service manual? 2008 maybe?
Would you mind scanning this one manual page for me, please?

>> Something is definitelly worse in the honda design if they rely on
>> the driver speed of turning this key to prevent relay arcing...
>
>
>
>
> You'd think, except that this does not translate into the real world.
> Nobody other than people trying to find non-existent problems do what
> you do.


If the problem was non existent than I could not find it...
I would not find it with my toyota - because there is no problem there.


>> Is honda known for more problems with relays than toyota?
>
>
>
> In the days when Honda combined two relays into one, yes. But that was
> due to the sheer mass of that combination, which mass caused the famous
> Honda PGM-FI Main Relay problems for so many years. That problem and its
> solution remains one of the most popular pages on my site.
>
> But since ~2005, Honda has split the Main Relay into two parts like
> everybody else, so the old problems are probably gone for good.


My car is registered April 2004.
It must have been made earlier than that...


>>> What happens if you
>>> 1) turn the key quickly to "I", then wait a bit, then
>>> 2) turn it quickly to "II", waiting AT LEAST TWO SECONDS, then
>>> 3) turn it quickly to "III" until the engine starts?
>>>
>>> Any "sparking" noise now?
>>> Or just heavy clicks as the Check Engine light comes on and goes off?
>>
>> No noticable arcing when I turn ignition key into the position III
>> *quickly*.
>> Just starter engages and the engine starts.
>
>
>
> Then everything's just dandy.

:-)) I wish it was just dandy.

It would be dandy if I could not hear this arcing...

> Maybe you should stop trying to find problems where they don't exist. Do
> you want to maintain a good relationship with your dealer, or do you
> want to make them hide under their desks when they see you coming?


Well, my "relationship" with the dealer is not really my big concern


>> Just because I am not noticing it does not mean it does not happen.
>> The arcing, if it is noticable when turning the key slowly it will be
>> there when turning key quickly, only will last shorter (i.e 50-100ms
>> instead of 500ms).
>> Even short arcing times the number of engine starts = premature
>> failure...
>
>
> It doesn't work that way, sorry.

:-)) and yet honda has the famous relay problems but toyota does not...
What a concidinky ;-)

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram
> which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which
> is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also
> the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the
> starter switch into the ON position.
>
> When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota
> camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point
> of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered
> from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing
> power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery
> and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing
> through the ignition switch in toyota.

Here is the illustration, may be a helpful aid to the text above:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3755875...7617280874226/

I am still interested if this part of the wiring diagram changed in 2008.

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In the car service manual, on page 4-5, there is a wiring diagram
>> which surprises me - there is the ignition switch pictured there, which
>> is powering the starter cut relay coil AND at the same moment also
>> the starter solenoid, consuming a lot of current used to move the
>> starter switch into the ON position.
>>
>> When I compare the same part of the wiring diagram in my toyota
>> camry I see there totally different picture... from the electrical point
>> of view, of course. In toyota, the starter relay coil only is powered
>> from the ignition switch. The starter relay contacts, the ones providing
>> power to the actual starter solenoid, are powered straight from battery
>> and the current flowing through the starter solenoid is NOT flowing
>> through the ignition switch in toyota.
>
> Here is the illustration, may be a helpful aid to the text above:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/3755875...7617280874226/
>
> I am still interested if this part of the wiring diagram changed in 2008.

Similar circuit in an old generation toyota camry (pages ST-3, ST-24):
http://www.turboninjas.com/camry/st.pdf

"Pszemol" > wrote in
:


>
> I am not sure if you read this carefully - I am UNABLE to repeat
> the same in toyota. The key at some point makes the contact
> and this is it: no buzzing, no arcing - the starter is engaged and
> it is turning.
>
> But it does not happen with honda - at some angle of the turned key
> the starter relay is just buzzing, not making the contact... The weak
> ignition switch is strugling to close the circuit of the starter relay
> coil AND at the same point RELAY'S OWN POWER CONTACTS!
> This should not happen!



If you're so concerned, why don't you just sell this car and buy another
Toyota?

There are no TSBs or other known issues with your model's ignition system,
so whatever you're seeing isn't the problem you think it is. Maybe that's
why the dealership told you nothing was wrong.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/