Detroit Rescue Plans Revealed

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:39:23 -0800 (PST), Lloyd cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:


>
> The problems:
>
> 1. Reliability for GM and Chrysler is still subpar, on average. Only
> Ford seems to be in a league with Honda and Toyota.

Not according to the Toyota recall statistics.

>
> 2. Dependence on archaic 4-speed automatics, which saps power and fuel
> economy.
>

Correction. Better stated as dependence on engines that build torque so
that they do not need 6 speed transmissions and rev at 10,000 rpm's. If
these cars sap so much power, then why do more GM cars achieve over 30mpg
than any other brand of car? If you're going to rag on a company, at least
come up with something fresh, that has just a hint of truth to it.

> 3. Skimping on the details, like too many hard surfaces in the
> interior. And just cheap interiors, especially Chrysler mid-size and
> small cars and SUVs.

I don't see those interiors as so different from the competition. I don't
think they are anywhere as nice as they used to be, but they fit in with
everyone else these days.

>
> 4. Engines which aren't as smooth or as quiet as those from Honda and
> Toyota. Or as powerful. Come on, Chrysler, Nissan gets 305 hp from a
> 3.5 L V6; you get 250. Honda gets 190 hp from a 2.4 L 4; you get 178
> hp from a 2.7 L V6.

They don't need to get all the horsepower because of the availability of
torque throughout the rpm range. Why do those cars you mention need 6
speed transmission, and downshift for any knoll they encounter?


--

-Mike-

On 2008-12-05, Nate Nagel > wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-04, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>
>>> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
>>> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.
>>
>> While some models see it sooner than others, that's pretty much
>> everyone's cars with plastic lenses. It's a function of the plastics
>> best suited for the job. The UV/hard coat quality varies, but ultimately
>> all the plastic lenses will cloud if the car is outside in the sun and
>> driven or the headlamps are used. Even mercedes plastic headlamps will
>> cloud over.
>>
>> The only way to avoid it at present that I know of is to use glass.
>>
>
> you can't blame the mfgrs. for that. IIRC it is written into the MVSS
> that addresses headlamps that any non-sealed-beam headlamp will have a
> one piece lens/reflector assembly and that the lenses will be plastic.

When was that done? the torqueless wonder car didn't have sealed beam
headlamps. First year of aero headlamps for the 626. It had glass
lenses.

On 2008-12-05, Bill Putney > wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-04, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>
>>> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
>>> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.
>>
>> While some models see it sooner than others, that's pretty much
>> everyone's cars with plastic lenses. It's a function of the plastics
>> best suited for the job. The UV/hard coat quality varies, but ultimately
>> all the plastic lenses will cloud if the car is outside in the sun and
>> driven or the headlamps are used. Even mercedes plastic headlamps will
>> cloud over.
>>
>> The only way to avoid it at present that I know of is to use glass.
>
> I don't see it evenly spread among the various makes, Brent.

I think I covered that.

> I have a
> '99 Concorde, my wife has a '99 Buick Century. They both are in the
> same driveway, not garaged. The Buick's headlights show no
> discoloration. That Concorde gets driven a lot more than the Buick, but
> it is the same with my other Concorde - a '98 that only gets used
> occasionally on family trips, so it does not appear to be attributable
> to amount that it is driven.

It would only be if it was in a garage when not driven.

> It (headlight lens
> replacement/restoration) is a constant topic of discussion on the LH car
> forums. I realize my observations are over a limited sampling and that
> you could be right, but I could see some manufacturers using better UV
> coatings on the lenses than others for any number of reasons. My
> suspicion is that that is indeed the case (I could be wrong).

I've see it in a lot of vehicles. Usually proportional to the number of
them on the road and their likelyhood of spending their life outside.

On 2008-12-05, Mike Hunter <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:
> That is BS! If lenses cloud over it is a preventive maintained problem.
> It one applies a polymer polish like NuFinish to the lenses on occasion they
> will never get cloudy

I see you've changed your 'from' to cut through filters again.

Anyway, while you try to be argumentive, you've agreed with me. What do
you think a "polish" does? It removes the haze! Duh.

Before I replaced the headlamps on my mustang I polished them on
occasion to keep them clear.

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Bill Putney wrote:
>> Brent wrote:
>>> On 2008-12-04, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>>
>>>> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
>>>> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.
>>>
>>> While some models see it sooner than others, that's pretty much
>>> everyone's cars with plastic lenses. It's a function of the plastics
>>> best suited for the job. The UV/hard coat quality varies, but ultimately
>>> all the plastic lenses will cloud if the car is outside in the sun and
>>> driven or the headlamps are used. Even mercedes plastic headlamps will
>>> cloud over.
>>> The only way to avoid it at present that I know of is to use glass.
>>
>> I don't see it evenly spread among the various makes, Brent. I have a
>> '99 Concorde, my wife has a '99 Buick Century. They both are in the
>> same driveway, not garaged. The Buick's headlights show no
>> discoloration. That Concorde gets driven a lot more than the Buick,
>> but it is the same with my other Concorde - a '98 that only gets used
>> occasionally on family trips, so it does not appear to be attributable
>> to amount that it is driven. It (headlight lens
>> replacement/restoration) is a constant topic of discussion on the LH
>> car forums. I realize my observations are over a limited sampling and
>> that you could be right, but I could see some manufacturers using
>> better UV coatings on the lenses than others for any number of
>> reasons. My suspicion is that that is indeed the case (I could be
>> wrong).
>>
>
> I think the angle of the headlights may have a lot to do with it. A
> century, IIRC, has a "ships prow" kind of front end while a Concorde
> takes a lot more direct sunlight on the headlight lenses. They'll all
> cloud up, eventually.
>
> nate

What you say about their angle is certainly true.

--
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Mike Hunter wrote:
> That is BS! If lenses cloud over it is a preventive maintained problem.


Right... All 3rd-Generation Chrysco minivan owners must be wrong.

"Bill Putney" > wrote in message
...

> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.

And you think this unique to Chrysler? My sister's Honda had that
problem. Her neighbor's Camry has that problem. The Accord of one of
my neighbors has that problem. Another neighbors Corolla has that
problem. Is there any manufacturer that hasn't built vehicles with
that problem? And don't tell me BMWs don't do it, because one car in
the parking lot is 3 series BMW and it has the problem too.

Ed

On 2008-12-05, C. E. White > wrote:
>
> "Bill Putney" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
>> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.
>
> And you think this unique to Chrysler? My sister's Honda had that
> problem. Her neighbor's Camry has that problem. The Accord of one of
> my neighbors has that problem. Another neighbors Corolla has that
> problem. Is there any manufacturer that hasn't built vehicles with
> that problem? And don't tell me BMWs don't do it, because one car in
> the parking lot is 3 series BMW and it has the problem too.

Every make will have the problem until someone making engineered
plastics comes up with a product that doesn't cloud over for a good
price. Then quickly no make will have the problem.

I think it may be better to just go back to glass lenses myself. but
that would kinda limit the industrial designers and they don't like
being limited.

Bill Putney wrote:
> Brent wrote:
>> On 2008-12-04, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>
>>> 5. Usage of incorrect or inferior materials in headlight lenses that
>>> cloud over on upper mid-line vehicles - like the LH cars.
>>
>> While some models see it sooner than others, that's pretty much
>> everyone's cars with plastic lenses. It's a function of the plastics
>> best suited for the job. The UV/hard coat quality varies, but ultimately
>> all the plastic lenses will cloud if the car is outside in the sun and
>> driven or the headlamps are used. Even mercedes plastic headlamps will
>> cloud over.
>> The only way to avoid it at present that I know of is to use glass.
>
> I don't see it evenly spread among the various makes, Brent. I have a
> '99 Concorde, my wife has a '99 Buick Century. They both are in the
> same driveway, not garaged. The Buick's headlights show no
> discoloration. That Concorde gets driven a lot more than the Buick, but
> it is the same with my other Concorde - a '98 that only gets used
> occasionally on family trips, so it does not appear to be attributable
> to amount that it is driven. It (headlight lens
> replacement/restoration) is a constant topic of discussion on the LH car
> forums. I realize my observations are over a limited sampling and that
> you could be right, but I could see some manufacturers using better UV
> coatings on the lenses than others for any number of reasons. My
> suspicion is that that is indeed the case (I could be wrong).
>


Where's Stern when you really need him? :-)

What he's told me in the past is that it varies a lot by HEADLAMP
builder, and how good their UV protectant really is. Chrysler LH cars
use Wagner headlamps (at least the first-gen ones did) and they seem to
cloud pretty badly. The PT Cruiser at the other extreme uses Hella
headlamps, and I see very few of them badly clouded. And now that my
wife is a PT Cruiser driver, I have to say that their beam pattern and
overall performance is easily on a par with the expensive E-code
headlamps that I've bought for other vehicles. Another complete contrast
from the LH cars....

Mike Hunter wrote:
> That is BS! If lenses cloud over it is a preventive maintained problem.
> It one applies a polymer polish like NuFinish to the lenses on occasion they
> will never get cloudy


Horse****. Cloudiness will eventually permeate the entire thickness of
the lens- you can't polish it out of the middle of the plastic! Its just
the nature of plastics, and how fast it happens depends on how good the
UV blockers used by the plastic maker actually are. In fact, polishing
headlights too often will prematurely strip away the UV protectant
layer, leaving the plastic lens even more vulnerable to UV damage.