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Taxing Drivers By The Mile: Part II



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 6th 05, 03:59 PM
Ed Stasiak
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Default Taxing Drivers By The Mile: Part II

BBC News
Sunday, 5 June, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm

'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan

New charges could be used to tackle road congestion
Drivers could pay up to =A31.34 a mile in "pay-as-you go"
road charges under new government plans.

The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting
congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty.

Alistair Darling said change was needed if the UK was to
avoid the possibility of "LA-style gridlock" within 20
years.

Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite
system to track their journey, with prices starting from
as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.

Mr Darling has outlined his proposals to the BBC - previewing
a speech he will give to the Social Market Foundation on
Thursday.

"The advantage is that you would free up capacity on the
roads, you would reduce the congestion that we would otherwise
face and you would avoid the gridlock that you see in many
American cities today," he said.

"This is a prize well worth going for. We've got to ask
ourselves: would it work. Could it bring the benefits that
I believe it could bring, because it would make a real change
to the way we drive in this country."

A satellite tracking system would be used to enforce the
toll, with prices varying from 2p per mile for driving on
a quiet road out of the rush hour to =A31.34 for motorways
at peak times.

The Department of Transport says the scheme would be fairer
because those who travel greater distances would pay the most.

"We have got to do everything we can during the course of
this parliament to decide whether or not we go with road
pricing," Mr Darling said.

If public reaction is favourable, a pilot scheme planned
for the Leeds area could be rolled out nationwide within
the next 10 years.

It is more likely to make people think about the cost of
a journey before undertaking it

The Environment Agency's Nick Rijke warned that shifting
money away from fuel duty would take away the incentive for
people to use green vehicles.

And AA Motoring Trust director Bert Morris said there were
a number of issues which needed to be addressed.

"Tourism is car-based in this country. Would we have empty
hotels on summer days on the coast if people couldn't afford
to drive?"

It was also important to ensure that drivers with less money
were not penalised, Mr Morris added.

RAC Foundation spokeswoman Sue Nicholson said the plan
could help counter a projected 45% growth in congestion
problems by 2030.

"Providing this tax was substitutional to fuel tax and road
tax and provided we had some other guarantees then I think,
for a lot of people, this would be a tempting option," she
said.

Environmental group Friends of the Earth broadly welcomed
road charging but warned the transport crisis could only be
tackled if money raised was invested in improving alternatives
to car travel.

Professor Garel Rhys, director of the Centre for Automotive
Industry Research at Cardiff university's business school,
believed road pricing would have to be introduced in the UK.

But he warned: "The key is trying to introduce those tolls
without affecting the flow of traffic, ie. not having to
stop and pay at a booth which caused congestion itself.

"Governments will upset at their peril society's wish to do
what it wants to do and that is to move around."

Ads
  #2  
Old June 6th 05, 04:07 PM
Ted B.
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"Ed Stasiak" > wrote in message
oups.com...
BBC News
Sunday, 5 June, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm

'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan

New charges could be used to tackle road congestion
Drivers could pay up to £1.34 a mile in "pay-as-you go"
road charges under new government plans.

The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting
congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty.

Alistair Darling said change was needed if the UK was to
avoid the possibility of "LA-style gridlock" within 20
years.

Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite
system to track their journey, with prices starting from
as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.

Mr Darling has outlined his proposals to the BBC - previewing
a speech he will give to the Social Market Foundation on
Thursday.

"The advantage is that you would free up capacity on the
roads, you would reduce the congestion that we would otherwise
face and you would avoid the gridlock that you see in many
American cities today," he said.

"This is a prize well worth going for. We've got to ask
ourselves: would it work. Could it bring the benefits that
I believe it could bring, because it would make a real change
to the way we drive in this country."

A satellite tracking system would be used to enforce the
toll, with prices varying from 2p per mile for driving on
a quiet road out of the rush hour to £1.34 for motorways
at peak times.

The Department of Transport says the scheme would be fairer
because those who travel greater distances would pay the most.


(snip)

In other words, another tax that favors the rich. I don't know how it is in
England, but a similar road use taxing scheme in the U.S. would hit the poor
and middle-class HARD, while the rich would hardly pay anything at all.

In the U.S., most people can't afford to LIVE anywhere near where they WORK.
That's because the employers are in areas where housing prices are sky-high.
The rich will have condos or houses near enough to work that they can walk
or ride a bicycle. Everbody else (the middle class and down) have to
commute to work, most driving a half hour or longer one way.

Result: Almost all road maintenance paid by the poor and middle class, and
almost NOTHING paid by the rich for maintaining the roads. Great
ystem. -Dave


  #3  
Old June 6th 05, 04:31 PM
Rothman
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Posts: n/a
Default

[snip]

> In other words, another tax that favors the rich. I don't know how it is
> in England, but a similar road use taxing scheme in the U.S. would hit the
> poor and middle-class HARD, while the rich would hardly pay anything at
> all.
>
> In the U.S., most people can't afford to LIVE anywhere near where they
> WORK. That's because the employers are in areas where housing prices are
> sky-high. The rich will have condos or houses near enough to work that
> they can walk or ride a bicycle. Everbody else (the middle class and
> down) have to commute to work, most driving a half hour or longer one way.
>
> Result: Almost all road maintenance paid by the poor and middle class,
> and almost NOTHING paid by the rich for maintaining the roads. Great
> ystem. -Dave

I don't know if I agree with you; I don't think that it's that clear-cut.
Depends on the metro area. Take Holyoke, MA, where most of the poor lives
right near the center of the city and take other forms of transportation
than cars to work (not necessarily public), but at least a significant
percentage of them do own cars; the rich live up the hill from the downtown,
and it's doubtful they actually work in Holyoke. What about Albany, NY,
where you can pick up a studio apartment for around $400 right by the
capital buildings, and the rich actually live out in Loudonville and other
surrounding areas mostly? Of course, with Boston and New York, you do have
concentrations of the rich near the center. Still, I'm not convinced that
the situation is as black and white as you make it, given modern, irrational
transportation patterns (i.e. instead of simply commuting in and out of a
central city, people head in all sorts of directions from their homes,
wherever they may be). I wouldn't be surprised if there was a study out
there that supports what you've said; it's just that such a study would
provide more data than what you've offered to support the assertion that a
tax would fall more heavily on the rich.


  #4  
Old June 6th 05, 05:25 PM
Jon Enslin
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Posts: n/a
Default



Ed Stasiak wrote:
> BBC News
> Sunday, 5 June, 2005
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm
>
> 'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan
>
> New charges could be used to tackle road congestion
> Drivers could pay up to =A31.34 a mile in "pay-as-you go"
> road charges under new government plans.
>
> The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting
> congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty.
>
> Alistair Darling said change was needed if the UK was to
> avoid the possibility of "LA-style gridlock" within 20
> years.
>
> Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite
> system to track their journey, with prices starting from
> as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.



What I don't understand about this is that a basic gas tax already
taxes those who use the roads more right? So this plan would tax those
that use certain road even more. Is that worth the costs associated
with setting up and monitoring this program? Just so you can shift
revenue from those travelling in the country to those travelling in the
city?

Jon

  #5  
Old June 6th 05, 05:28 PM
John S.
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Result: Almost all road maintenance paid by the poor and middle
class, and
almost NOTHING paid by the rich for maintaining the roads."

JS> I don't undertstand how the rich pay almost nothing but the poor
pay more under that scheme. The fees are based on where you are
driving from and not on what you make (or own). If a rich man and a
poor man each commute 30 miles to the city center they pay the same
amount to use the roadway. I do not understand your math.

If you are saying that as a group the rich pay less in total than the
middle and lower class, well yes that's true. The sheer numbers of
people in the middle and lower classes account for that and not some
undefined rightwing conspiracy. The driving toll is a user fee, just
like bus fare and bridge tolls.

The potential downside of such a tax is that it could redirect so many
people to public transportation that more and trains and train
right-of-way will have to be acquired. And revenues for road
maintenance may decline to a point that other taxes will have to be
imposed. Unintended consequences....

  #6  
Old June 6th 05, 06:46 PM
JohnH
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Default

> 'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan

The morons who think toll booths are a great idea ought to be creaming thier
pants over this one.


  #7  
Old June 6th 05, 07:04 PM
Dick Boyd
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Posts: n/a
Default



Jon Enslin wrote:
> Ed Stasiak wrote:
> > BBC News
> > Sunday, 5 June, 2005
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm
> >
> > 'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan
> >
> > New charges could be used to tackle road congestion
> > Drivers could pay up to =A31.34 a mile in "pay-as-you go"
> > road charges under new government plans.
> >
> > The transport secretary said the charges, aimed at cutting
> > congestion, would replace road tax and petrol duty.
> >
> > Alistair Darling said change was needed if the UK was to
> > avoid the possibility of "LA-style gridlock" within 20
> > years.
> >
> > Every vehicle would have a black box to allow a satellite
> > system to track their journey, with prices starting from
> > as little as 2p per mile in rural areas.

>
>
> What I don't understand about this is that a basic gas tax already
> taxes those who use the roads more right? So this plan would tax those
> that use certain road even more. Is that worth the costs associated
> with setting up and monitoring this program? Just so you can shift
> revenue from those travelling in the country to those travelling in the
> city?
>
> Jon


Yes, there is a fuels tax. Presently, governments collect between
$0.0111 to $0.061 per mile of travel from each fuel burning vehicle.
That is enough to pay for a road with lane mile costs in the $5 million
to $10 million range with low peaking and high average daily use. A
peaking lane might run $35 million per lane mile and generate only $1
million in gasoline taxes.

Key words in this comparison of prices is the cost per mile. Yes, if
someone drives more miles, he/she pays more total fuel taxes, but the
taxes per mile is the same.

And that is my two cents (per mile) on the issue. Not complaining that
two cents is too much, but that the two cents goes to buy the wrong
thing.

Congestion pricing is aimed to get people to drive off peak or find
alternate transportation.

How much is your time worth? Ten dollars an hour? Would you pay three
dollars toll to save twenty minutes travel time? What values of time
and pricing balance out to make the road free flowing?

  #8  
Old June 6th 05, 07:31 PM
Ted B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John S." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> "Result: Almost all road maintenance paid by the poor and middle
> class, and
> almost NOTHING paid by the rich for maintaining the roads."
>
> JS> I don't undertstand how the rich pay almost nothing but the poor
> pay more under that scheme. The fees are based on where you are
> driving from and not on what you make (or own). If a rich man and a
> poor man each commute 30 miles to the city center they pay the same
> amount to use the roadway. I do not understand your math.
>


Simple: The rich can afford to live close to where they work, IF they
ork. -Dave


  #9  
Old June 6th 05, 08:33 PM
John S.
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Default

"Simple: The rich can afford to live close to where they work, IF they

ork. -Dave"

JS> In that case if the rich man is only driving 2 miles to work why
should he pay for 28 more miles of use that he never inflicted on the
road. Or said another way why should he subsidize the driving habits
of someone else.

In many cities the opposite is true. The rich live well away from the
inner city and thus would be impacted heavily by a milage-based tax.

  #10  
Old June 6th 05, 11:58 PM
Dave Head
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:07:55 -0400, "Ted B." > wrote:

>
>"Ed Stasiak" > wrote in message
roups.com...
>BBC News
>Sunday, 5 June, 2005
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4610755.stm
>
>'Pay-as-you-go' road charge plan
>(snip)
>
>In other words, another tax that favors the rich. I don't know how it is in
>England, but a similar road use taxing scheme in the U.S. would hit the poor
>and middle-class HARD, while the rich would hardly pay anything at all.


Yep. There's not nearly as many rich people, and they can only drive 1 car at
a time, just like anyone else, so they, as a group, wouldn't be paying much at
all.

>In the U.S., most people can't afford to LIVE anywhere near where they WORK.
>That's because the employers are in areas where housing prices are sky-high.


Housing prices are high because they are near the employment!

>The rich will have condos or houses near enough to work that they can walk
>or ride a bicycle.


That too.

> Everbody else (the middle class and down) have to
>commute to work, most driving a half hour or longer one way.


Yep.

>Result: Almost all road maintenance paid by the poor and middle class, and
>almost NOTHING paid by the rich for maintaining the roads. Great
>ystem. -Dave


Sure enough. The rich will take their private planes cross country, too, and
escape the road tax that way. OTOH, if they get a tax plan so simple that it
is just a matter of collecting the money by reading GPS information from
passing cars, they'll have travel taxed at $1 a mile or more overnight, no
matter what road you're using. If you have a long driveway, it might cost you
$1.00 for the round trip just to get the mail! It'll cost $6000 - $9000 for a
driving vacation like you might have taken as a kid - and you'll be the last
one out there, 'cuz no one else, except the rich will be able to afford it,
and they'll be flying anyway...

Dave Head
>


 




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