R-134A

What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what is
the name and expected release date and expected price?

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim > wrote:

>What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
>Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what is
>the name and expected release date and expected price?
>

Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no one over there
makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large market for 134a
so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.

"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim > wrote:
>
> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what is
> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
> >
>
> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no one over there
> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large market for 134a
> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.

Ah, no. Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011 And
don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets jettisoned. One of the
biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak detect it
except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as that's present in
the air already, a leak detector can't tell the difference) And dye is
unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't going to put up
with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times after service
work just to tighten a few fittings.

It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a real problem
for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is going to be a
bitch
since your going to have to be buying it in pressure bottles like you
would buy welding gasses.

This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to see China and
India fool around with this sort of thing for many many years, if ever.
Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.

Here's a good link on this problem:

http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf

The reason there is a shortage is:

1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a fire) last year in one
of it's
major R134a production plants and
it shut down production for some time as a result.

2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously because China
and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in Europe now, most
vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most didn't come with
A/C from the factory.

3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the sudden spike in
demand
and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities coming online in
the
near future.

4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market (where the margins are
rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans, hairspray, etc.) where
the
margins are much bigger.

5) A number of factories that make R134a also can switchover to making
HFC125
and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a, they stop
producing R134a
and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down and R134a goes up.

HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative refrigerant for R22
systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12 systems. Right now
there is
a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C used in your home)
converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will be prohibited
from
making R22 systems.

6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market driven mainly by
the lack of information out there, also people are panicing and are hoarding
the stuff right now.

See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more info.

The high prices will likely continue until 2006.

Ted

hog wash
R134a was 7 bucks a can before summer and now its 14 bucks a
can
all do to the demand cuz of summer another ploy by the big guys!!!!!!

Great info Ted!!
"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim > wrote:
>>
>> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
>> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what is
>> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
>> >
>>
>> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no one over there
>> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large market for 134a
>> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.
>
> Ah, no. Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011 And
> don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets jettisoned. One of the
> biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak detect it
> except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as that's present in
> the air already, a leak detector can't tell the difference) And dye is
> unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't going to put up
> with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times after service
> work just to tighten a few fittings.
>
> It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a real problem
> for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is going to be a
> bitch
> since your going to have to be buying it in pressure bottles like you
> would buy welding gasses.
>
> This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to see China and
> India fool around with this sort of thing for many many years, if ever.
> Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.
>
> Here's a good link on this problem:
>
> http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf
>
> The reason there is a shortage is:
>
> 1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a fire) last year in
> one
> of it's
> major R134a production plants and
> it shut down production for some time as a result.
>
> 2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously because China
> and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in Europe now, most
> vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most didn't come
> with
> A/C from the factory.
>
> 3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the sudden spike in
> demand
> and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities coming online
> in
> the
> near future.
>
> 4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market (where the margins
> are
> rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans, hairspray, etc.) where
> the
> margins are much bigger.
>
> 5) A number of factories that make R134a also can switchover to making
> HFC125
> and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a, they stop
> producing R134a
> and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down and R134a goes up.
>
> HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative refrigerant for R22
> systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12 systems. Right now
> there is
> a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C used in your home)
> converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will be prohibited
> from
> making R22 systems.
>
> 6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market driven mainly
> by
> the lack of information out there, also people are panicing and are
> hoarding
> the stuff right now.
>
> See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more info.
>
> The high prices will likely continue until 2006.
>
> Ted
>
>



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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:46:08 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:

>
>"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim > wrote:
>>
>> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
>> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what is
>> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
>> >
>>
>> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no one over there
>> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large market for 134a
>> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.
>
>Ah, no.

My info was what was printed in Motor Magazine last month. They said
the euro factories stopped making 134 leaving only the US factories..
Supply and Demand. Same demand, less supply, higher price.


Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011 And
>don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets jettisoned. One of the
>biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak detect it
>except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as that's present in
>the air already, a leak detector can't tell the difference) And dye is
>unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't going to put up
>with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times after service
>work just to tighten a few fittings.
>
>It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a real problem
>for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is going to be a
>bitch
>since your going to have to be buying it in pressure bottles like you
>would buy welding gasses.
>
>This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to see China and
>India fool around with this sort of thing for many many years, if ever.
>Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.
>
>Here's a good link on this problem:
>
>http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf
>
>The reason there is a shortage is:
>
>1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a fire) last year in one
>of it's
>major R134a production plants and
>it shut down production for some time as a result.
>
>2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously because China
>and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in Europe now, most
>vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most didn't come with
>A/C from the factory.
>
>3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the sudden spike in
>demand
>and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities coming online in
>the
>near future.
>
>4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market (where the margins are
>rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans, hairspray, etc.) where
>the
>margins are much bigger.
>
>5) A number of factories that make R134a also can switchover to making
>HFC125
>and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a, they stop
>producing R134a
>and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down and R134a goes up.
>
>HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative refrigerant for R22
>systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12 systems. Right now
>there is
>a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C used in your home)
>converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will be prohibited
>from
>making R22 systems.
>
>6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market driven mainly by
>the lack of information out there, also people are panicing and are hoarding
>the stuff right now.
>
>See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more info.
>
>The high prices will likely continue until 2006.
>
>Ted
>

Thanks for the input.

Surely, the price will go down on r-134a when Dupont's
Corpus Christie unit comes back on line.

Meanwhile, prices on a 30 lb. jug of it are around $250.00!
Ridiculous.



On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:46:55 -0700, Ashton Crusher
> wrote:

"On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:46:08 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:
"
">
">"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
. ..
">> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim
> wrote:
">>
">> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
">> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what
is
">> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
">> >
">>
">> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no
one over there
">> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large
market for 134a
">> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.
">
">Ah, no.
"
"My info was what was printed in Motor Magazine last month.
They said
"the euro factories stopped making 134 leaving only the US
factories..
"Supply and Demand. Same demand, less supply, higher price.
"
"
" Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011
And
">don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets
jettisoned. One of the
">biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak
detect it
">except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as
that's present in
">the air already, a leak detector can't tell the
difference) And dye is
">unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't
going to put up
">with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times
after service
">work just to tighten a few fittings.
">
">It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a
real problem
">for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is
going to be a
">bitch
">since your going to have to be buying it in pressure
bottles like you
">would buy welding gasses.
">
">This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to
see China and
">India fool around with this sort of thing for many many
years, if ever.
">Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.
">
">Here's a good link on this problem:
">
">http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf
">
">The reason there is a shortage is:
">
">1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a
fire) last year in one
">of it's
">major R134a production plants and
">it shut down production for some time as a result.
">
">2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously
because China
">and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in
Europe now, most
">vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most
didn't come with
">A/C from the factory.
">
">3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the
sudden spike in
">demand
">and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities
coming online in
">the
">near future.
">
">4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market
(where the margins are
">rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans,
hairspray, etc.) where
">the
">margins are much bigger.
">
">5) A number of factories that make R134a also can
switchover to making
">HFC125
">and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a,
they stop
">producing R134a
">and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down
and R134a goes up.
">
">HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative
refrigerant for R22
">systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12
systems. Right now
">there is
">a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C
used in your home)
">converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will
be prohibited
">from
">making R22 systems.
">
">6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market
driven mainly by
">the lack of information out there, also people are
panicing and are hoarding
">the stuff right now.
">
">See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more
info.
">
">The high prices will likely continue until 2006.
">
">Ted
">

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:43:09 GMT, Jim > wrote:

>Thanks for the input.
>
>Surely, the price will go down on r-134a when Dupont's
>Corpus Christie unit comes back on line.
>
>Meanwhile, prices on a 30 lb. jug of it are around $250.00!
>Ridiculous.
>
>

Huh? That's only $8 a pound. That's about 50% higher then what it
was selling for 5 years ago (on a per can at AutoZone price) and
that's without accounting for inflation.


>
>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:46:55 -0700, Ashton Crusher
> wrote:
>
>"On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:46:08 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:
>"
>">
>">"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
...
>">> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim
> wrote:
>">>
>">> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
>">> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what
>is
>">> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
>">> >
>">>
>">> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no
>one over there
>">> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large
>market for 134a
>">> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.
>">
>">Ah, no.
>"
>"My info was what was printed in Motor Magazine last month.
>They said
>"the euro factories stopped making 134 leaving only the US
>factories..
>"Supply and Demand. Same demand, less supply, higher price.
>"
>"
>" Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011
>And
>">don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets
>jettisoned. One of the
>">biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak
>detect it
>">except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as
>that's present in
>">the air already, a leak detector can't tell the
>difference) And dye is
>">unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't
>going to put up
>">with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times
>after service
>">work just to tighten a few fittings.
>">
>">It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a
>real problem
>">for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is
>going to be a
>">bitch
>">since your going to have to be buying it in pressure
>bottles like you
>">would buy welding gasses.
>">
>">This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to
>see China and
>">India fool around with this sort of thing for many many
>years, if ever.
>">Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.
>">
>">Here's a good link on this problem:
>">
>">http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf
>">
>">The reason there is a shortage is:
>">
>">1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a
>fire) last year in one
>">of it's
>">major R134a production plants and
>">it shut down production for some time as a result.
>">
>">2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously
>because China
>">and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in
>Europe now, most
>">vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most
>didn't come with
>">A/C from the factory.
>">
>">3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the
>sudden spike in
>">demand
>">and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities
>coming online in
>">the
>">near future.
>">
>">4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market
>(where the margins are
>">rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans,
>hairspray, etc.) where
>">the
>">margins are much bigger.
>">
>">5) A number of factories that make R134a also can
>switchover to making
>">HFC125
>">and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a,
>they stop
>">producing R134a
>">and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down
>and R134a goes up.
>">
>">HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative
>refrigerant for R22
>">systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12
>systems. Right now
>">there is
>">a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C
>used in your home)
>">converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will
>be prohibited
>">from
>">making R22 systems.
>">
>">6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market
>driven mainly by
>">the lack of information out there, also people are
>panicing and are hoarding
>">the stuff right now.
>">
>">See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more
>info.
>">
>">The high prices will likely continue until 2006.
>">
>">Ted
>">

try 400 bucks a 30 pounder keg. KB



Ashton Crusher > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:43:09 GMT, Jim > wrote:
>
>>Thanks for the input.
>>
>>Surely, the price will go down on r-134a when Dupont's
>>Corpus Christie unit comes back on line.
>>
>>Meanwhile, prices on a 30 lb. jug of it are around $250.00!
>>Ridiculous.
>>
>>
>
> Huh? That's only $8 a pound. That's about 50% higher then what it
> was selling for 5 years ago (on a per can at AutoZone price) and
> that's without accounting for inflation.
>
>
>>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:46:55 -0700, Ashton Crusher
> wrote:
>>
>>"On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:46:08 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
> wrote:
>>"
>>">
>>">"Ashton Crusher" > wrote in message
m...
>>">> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:43:42 GMT, Jim
> wrote:
>>">>
>>">> >What has happened to the skyrocketing prices of R-134a?
>>">> >Is there an alternative on the horizon and if so, what
>>is
>>">> >the name and expected release date and expected price?
>>">> >
>>">>
>>">> Europe has switched to a different refrigerant and no
>>one over there
>>">> makes it anymore so the US is the only remaining large
>>market for 134a
>>">> so the supply has gone down and the price has gone up.
>>">
>>">Ah, no.
>>"
>>"My info was what was printed in Motor Magazine last month.
>>They said
>>"the euro factories stopped making 134 leaving only the US
>>factories..
>>"Supply and Demand. Same demand, less supply, higher price.
>>"
>>"
>>" Europe doesen't have to switch over to R744 until 2011
>>And
>>">don't be surprised if at the last minute that gets
>>jettisoned. One of the
>>">biggest problems with R744 is that there's no way to leak
>>detect it
>>">except for using dye. (R744 is basically CO2 and as
>>that's present in
>>">the air already, a leak detector can't tell the
>>difference) And dye is
>>">unacceptable for automotive servicing - people aren't
>>going to put up
>>">with being told to come back to the A/C shop 4-6 times
>>after service
>>">work just to tighten a few fittings.
>>">
>>">It also has to be run at thousands of PSI which makes it a
>>real problem
>>">for long term life of flexible lines. And charging it is
>>going to be a
>>">bitch
>>">since your going to have to be buying it in pressure
>>bottles like you
>>">would buy welding gasses.
>>">
>>">This is typical Europe tree-hugging. Your not going to
>>see China and
>>">India fool around with this sort of thing for many many
>>years, if ever.
>>">Hell they just barely stopped making stuff with R12 in it.
>>">
>>">Here's a good link on this problem:
>>">
>>">http://www.macsw.org/pdf/refrig.pdf
>>">
>>">The reason there is a shortage is:
>>">
>>">1) DuPont had a "production interruption" (rumor is a
>>fire) last year in one
>>">of it's
>>">major R134a production plants and
>>">it shut down production for some time as a result.
>>">
>>">2) The worldwide demand for R134a has jumped tremendously
>>because China
>>">and India are converting over to R134a from R12, also in
>>Europe now, most
>>">vehicles are being produced with A/C, a few years ago most
>>didn't come with
>>">A/C from the factory.
>>">
>>">3) The refrigerant gas manufacturers didn't project the
>>sudden spike in
>>">demand
>>">and as a result there's no new R134a production facilities
>>coming online in
>>">the
>>">near future.
>>">
>>">4) More R134a is being diverted from the auto market
>>(where the margins are
>>">rather thin) to the propellant markets (paint cans,
>>hairspray, etc.) where
>>">the
>>">margins are much bigger.
>>">
>>">5) A number of factories that make R134a also can
>>switchover to making
>>">HFC125
>>">and when the prices of those gasses is higher than R134a,
>>they stop
>>">producing R134a
>>">and produce HFC125 until the price of HFC125 comes down
>>and R134a goes up.
>>">
>>">HFC125 is used to make R407c, which is the alternative
>>refrigerant for R22
>>">systems, much like R134a is the alternative for R12
>>systems. Right now
>>">there is
>>">a big push for getting the large systems (like the A/C
>>used in your home)
>>">converted over to R407c because in 2010 manufacturers will
>>be prohibited
>>">from
>>">making R22 systems.
>>">
>>">6) There is significant price gouging in the retail market
>>driven mainly by
>>">the lack of information out there, also people are
>>panicing and are hoarding
>>">the stuff right now.
>>">
>>">See http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/index.html for more
>>info.
>>">
>>">The high prices will likely continue until 2006.
>>">
>>">Ted
>>">
>
>



--
ThunderSnake #9 Warn once, shoot twice
460 in the pkup, 460 on the stand for another pkup
and one in the shed for a fun project to yet be decided on

Kevin Bottorff wrote:

> try 400 bucks a 30 pounder keg. KB
>
>

My local Sam's Club has 30 lb cylinders of R-134a for $235, plus or minus,
or did have when I was there last weekend...

Now, R-12 goes for around $400/cylinder, maybe more...I haven't checked
eBay for a while...