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Odd blower problems, Scirocco.



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 9th 05, 06:58 AM
Bill Leary
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Default Odd blower problems, Scirocco.

I'm debugging a problem with the fan in my "new" (got it a couple weeks back)
1987 16V Scirocco.

Two problems.

1. The blower only operates in low. If the switch is on 0, no blower. In
positions 1 to 4, it's the same as my other 16V Scirocco gives in 1.

I reviewed Bentley on this, and it claims that if the resistor pack is zapped,
you'll only get high speed. I'm only getting low. Besides, I'm assuming from
the diagrams that the reason you only get high is because it's a direct connect,
bypassing the resistor pack entirely.

2. The blower only works in the three A/C position or the defrost heat position.
In the other two heat positions, it stops.

I didn't see anything directly on this one. I suspect the switches associated
with the lever, but I haven't had a chance to work on it yet.

I figured I'd ask for ideas before I start pulling things apart.

- Bill


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  #2  
Old July 9th 05, 10:03 AM
Harry
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"Bill Leary" > wrote ...

> I'm debugging a problem with the fan in my "new" (got it a couple weeks
> back)
> 1987 16V Scirocco.


. . hmmmmmmm . . others may have a more definitive answer but I
wonder if the blower motor is faulty. You may want to jump the motor
directly to see if the motor blows up to full RPM. You would probably have
to remove the glove compartment (easy) and drop the lower tray to get
access. You might be able to get to the harness by just dropping the lower
tray.

The other possibility (sounds odd) is that the switch was replaced and
someone put the wrong terminals on the replacement switch or removed it and
put the wire terminals on wrong.

Among my other cars I have an 88 Golf that I replaced the blower motor
recently. The original was all metal and had a short rubber cooling hose to
the motor. It replaced perfectly with a newer year (I think I got it off a
92 or 91 Jetta)
(10 bucks at the pull-it-yourself) that was plastic that had a plastic
form that went over where the hole was in the duct where the rubber hose
came out to the motor. Different but a perfect fit.

Harry




  #3  
Old July 9th 05, 11:11 AM
Joseph Meehan
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Default

Bill Leary wrote:
> I'm debugging a problem with the fan in my "new" (got it a couple
> weeks back) 1987 16V Scirocco.
>


I am with Harry with this. I suggest you start by testing the blower
motor by supplying it directly with 12V. I suspect it is dying and the
bearings are going. That is often the case when the resistor pack goes, the
increased draw due to the bad bearings starts blowing out resistors. The
high speed problem could be a wining problem at or in the switch or resistor
pack (some times they are combined.


> Two problems.
>
> 1. The blower only operates in low. If the switch is on 0, no
> blower. In positions 1 to 4, it's the same as my other 16V Scirocco
> gives in 1.
>
> I reviewed Bentley on this, and it claims that if the resistor pack
> is zapped, you'll only get high speed. I'm only getting low.
> Besides, I'm assuming from the diagrams that the reason you only get
> high is because it's a direct connect, bypassing the resistor pack
> entirely.
>
> 2. The blower only works in the three A/C position or the defrost
> heat position. In the other two heat positions, it stops.
>
> I didn't see anything directly on this one. I suspect the switches
> associated with the lever, but I haven't had a chance to work on it
> yet.
>
> I figured I'd ask for ideas before I start pulling things apart.
>
> - Bill


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


  #4  
Old July 9th 05, 02:40 PM
Bill Leary
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"Harry" > wrote in message
...
> . . hmmmmmmm . . others may have a more definitive answer but I
> wonder if the blower motor is faulty. You may want to jump the motor
> directly to see if the motor blows up to full RPM.


I agree. I'd planned on that as a first step. I've already tried replacing the
relays and switch from my other car.

> You would probably have
> to remove the glove compartment (easy) and drop the lower tray to get
> access. You might be able to get to the harness by just dropping the lower
> tray.


Bentley tells me the resistor pack is accessed from the engine compartment. I'd
planned to go there and tag the output side.

> The other possibility (sounds odd) is that the switch was replaced and
> someone put the wrong terminals on the replacement switch or removed it and
> put the wire terminals on wrong.


I would have to be the harness itself. Something like all four outputs shorted
to the low side input. From the diagrams, it appears I can continuity test that
theory with the resistor pack exposed and the switch pulled.

> Among my other cars I have an 88 Golf that I replaced the blower motor
> recently. The original was all metal and had a short rubber cooling hose to
> the motor. It replaced perfectly with a newer year (I think I got it off a
> 92 or 91 Jetta) (10 bucks at the pull-it-yourself) that was plastic that had
> a plastic form that went over where the hole was in the duct where the
> rubber hose came out to the motor. Different but a perfect fit.


Encouraging. There's a decent yard nearby.

"Joseph Meehan" > wrote in message
...
> I am with Harry with this. I suggest you start by testing the blower
> motor by supplying it directly with 12V. I suspect it is dying and the
> bearings are going. That is often the case when the resistor pack goes, the
> increased draw due to the bad bearings starts blowing out resistors.


Makes sense.

> The
> high speed problem could be a wining problem at or in the switch or resistor
> pack (some times they are combined.


Be quite a coincidence. But then, from what I've heard, the car was maintained
by "numerous incompetent mechanics" before it came to me. The inventiveness of
the incompetent is always amazing.

Thanks both of you for some ideas and also for confirming my planned first step.

- Bill


  #5  
Old July 9th 05, 08:37 PM
Harry
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"Bill Leary" > wrote

>> Among my other cars I have an 88 Golf that I replaced the blower motor
>> recently. The original was all metal and had a short rubber cooling hose
>> to
>> the motor. It replaced perfectly with a newer year (I think I got it off
>> a
>> 92 or 91 Jetta) (10 bucks at the pull-it-yourself) that was plastic that
>> had
>> a plastic form that went over where the hole was in the duct where the
>> rubber hose came out to the motor. Different but a perfect fit.

>
> Encouraging. There's a decent yard nearby.


If it is the blower motor and you find the newer plastic housing blower
motor with the plastic molder duct instead of the rubber hose at a yard, the
wiring harness plug is different. On the older blower motors there is about
6 inches or so wire before the plug to the harness. On the newer ones the
wiring is longer, so the easy thing to do in the pull-it-yourself is to snip
the harness with wire cutter the same length as the one you took off. What I
did was to snip of the harness connector from the *bad* motor and soldered
the old connector to the snipped wires from the donor car blower the same
length with shrink tubing over the soldered connectors. (this is only if you
pull a newer plastic housed blower moter). The wires only match in one
color, brown when using a newer blower instead of the older metal
blower/with rubber hose. Matching brown to brown is correct in polarity -
ignoring the other color mismatch. (using newer blower in older car with
older blower design)

You also may want to take your multimeter to the yard and check to make sure
there is NOT full continutiy on the blower motor terminals before you pull
it out - my bad blower had full continuity on it's terminal

To pull out the blower, I found I had to pull out the lower dash or bend
out. This was very easy buy removing only two screws. One on the end of the
dash, head facing the door and another next to the center console. With
these two screws out you can bend the lower dash out for the blower motor to
clear so it can be removed. Not sure if this is as easy with the Scirocco.

Harry




  #6  
Old July 9th 05, 09:09 PM
Harry
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"Bill Leary" > wrote

>> The other possibility (sounds odd) is that the switch was replaced and
>> someone put the wrong terminals on the replacement switch or removed it
>> and
>> put the wire terminals on wrong.

>
> I would have to be the harness itself. Something like all four outputs
> shorted
> to the low side input. From the diagrams, it appears I can continuity
> test that
> theory with the resistor pack exposed and the switch pulled.


What I mean though perhaps a long shot is that there are 'push on' terminal
connectors on the back of the switch and someone may have pulled the switch,
forgot where the terminals needed to be pushed on correctly and that is why
it is operating erratically. I would trace the wire colors to the switch,
perhaps testing the switch with a continuity tester so you know what is on
and off if the switch pattern is confusing and make sure the correct wire
terminals are pressed on to the flat males. Usually if it is the resister
pack only the high works. Also, if you pull a blower motor and the resister
pack matches, that it probably should, you may want to pull an extra
resister pack - they don't know the value most of the time for VW parts and
will probably charge you 2 or 3 dollars or something, if so, test that too
at the yard with a multitestor. Probably need to pry it off carefully with a
screwdriver after removing the fastener as they are sealed on sometimes. I
pulled an extra resister pack when I pulled my blower motor from the yard.
They are known to blow.

Harry








  #7  
Old July 10th 05, 12:05 AM
Harry
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> What I mean though perhaps a long shot is that there are 'push on'
> terminal connectors on the back of the switch and someone may have pulled
> the switch, forgot where the terminals needed to be pushed on


How dumb of me. It just occurred to me, I am alright - that is a single
multi-terminal plug that goes on the back of the blower switch and
impossible to mix paths as it fits only one way - sorry about that.

Harry


  #8  
Old July 10th 05, 12:53 AM
Bill Leary
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"Harry" > wrote in message
...
> "Bill Leary" > wrote
> > I would have to be the harness itself. Something like all four outputs
> > shorted to the low side input. From the diagrams, it appears I can
> > continuity test that theory with the resistor pack exposed and the
> > switch pulled.

>
> What I mean though perhaps a long shot is that there are 'push on' terminal
> connectors on the back of the switch and someone may have pulled the switch,
> forgot where the terminals needed to be pushed on correctly and that is why
> it is operating erratically.


If I see what you mean, that's not possible on these cars. The wires are routed
into a round, keyed connector. It only goes on one way. Well, unless you're
prepared to break something.

> I would trace the wire colors to the switch,
> ((..omitted..))
> Usually if it is the resister
> pack only the high works.


That's what I'd expected. And that's what Bentley says too. Which is why this
was more than a bit of a surprise.

> Also, if you pull a blower motor and the resister
> pack matches, that it probably should, you may want to pull an extra
> resister pack -


I was considering doing that. When I go to get replacement electrical parts, I
usually try to get two of whatever it is.

> they don't know the value most of the time for VW parts


The resistor pack and wiring harness it's build into is $135, at VW. Which is
why I decided to make SURE it was busted before I replaced it. And will
probably go pull one before I pay this much.

> and will probably charge you 2 or 3 dollars or something, if so,


Right. I got a switch which VW wanted $45 for for "Oh, gimme a buck" the last
time.

> test that too
> at the yard with a multitestor. Probably need to pry it off carefully with a
> screwdriver after removing the fastener as they are sealed on sometimes.


Well, as it happens I have another Scirocco here, sans motor and trans, which
I'm going to try to get the pack out of first.

> I
> pulled an extra resister pack when I pulled my blower motor from the yard.
> They are known to blow.


That's what I'd heard. and if I only had HIGH I'd assume that's what was. This
"only low" business makes my wonder what the hell the last guy who worked on it
did. I'm wondering if he didn't get a motor from a non A/C VW and just left off
the high speed connection AND fouled up the connections for the other three
speeds. I'll know once I get it open, I hope.

- Bill


  #9  
Old July 10th 05, 12:55 AM
Bill Leary
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"Harry" > wrote in message
...
> > What I mean though perhaps a long shot is that there are 'push on'
> > terminal connectors on the back of the switch and someone may have pulled
> > the switch, forgot where the terminals needed to be pushed on

>
> How dumb of me. It just occurred to me, I am alright - that is a single
> multi-terminal plug that goes on the back of the blower switch and
> impossible to mix paths as it fits only one way - sorry about that.


No problem. I was assuming that some car you'd worked on used a different
approach.

- Bill


  #10  
Old July 11th 05, 10:44 AM
Bill Leary
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Update on the problem. *

Turns out I was flat out mistaken about the blower working in low. It, in fact,
doesn't work at all. I was lead astray by the radiator fan coming on, thus
giving me the noise of a fan running faintly somewhere up front of the car. I'd
marked up the inability to feel a breeze from the blower to a vacuum failure in
the various flappers, since I did almost all of this testing with the engine
off.

So, what actually happens is this:

The double pole / single throw (radiator fan / A/C activator) part of the A/C
relay drops in (and thus turns the radiator fan on to low) when the blower
switch is in any position other than off AND the A/C - Heat lever is in any of
the three A/C positions OR the defrost heat position. I've VOM'd it, and that's
really what it's doing. That bit about it coming on in the defrost position I
was assuming was wrong, but then I remembered that some cars use the A/C in the
defogging position to dehumidify the air. Does anyone know if this is the case
for the '87 Scirocco A/C? I'll check that on my other '87 16V when I get a
chance, but my son's got it right now.

The single pole / single throw (high speed blower) position of the A/C relay
drops in when the fan switch in in position 4, just as it's supposed to. The
blower does not come on. I checked that +12 was going into the switch part of
the relay, and it is. I jumped the switch directly (thus simulating a closed
relay) and the blower did not come on.

After tracing circuits (on paper, I ran out of time on the car) it appears there
are only two places the fan can be killed completely.

1. Ground connector under the fuse/relay panel.
2. Five point connector under the dashboard.
3. The fan itself is dead.

I normally wouldn't much suspect 1 and 2, except that I had an ancient alarm
system removed shortly after I got the car and it was wired in the the
fuse/relay panel and had wires running around under the dashboard as well.
Perhaps something got knocked of or pulled out. And from all indications, those
two are going to be a lot easier to check than the fan motor itself, so they get
first look.

Any other ideas before I get back to it would be welcome.

- Bill

__________
Background: 1987 16V Scirocco. (I thought) Blower works only in low and only in
the three A/C and highest heat positions.




 




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