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Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 5th 06, 10:47 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(

Mister Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:44:36 -0400, "Nikki"
wrote:


"Frank" wrote in message
groups.com...

Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that coming..............

Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


That is what I said......in most cases its not the stores fault, they are
running a business (by the way I was speaking of chain stores not little
community stores) and more about things like koi disease (the one they are
seeing a lot of, and the contagious-ulcer disease) things that take time to
show up, I was saying the breeders have them for sometime so could notice
something, then you have them and can notice things, but its unlikely the
store who has them for maybe a week.... along with hundreds of others at the
same time, I think petsmart has 100 tanks, and several fish in each, it
would be hard for them to notice diseases that you have to find from
watching behavior and things like that.
NIk


While we're doing a bit of bashing on certain stores and distributors
and suppliers and growers, I really believe that the vast majority of
people in this industry, like the population in general, are well
intentioned people trying to do what's good and right. Just like you
and me. That said, let's get back to bashing WalMart.



-- Mister Gardener


Just a word of caution before bashing individual stores...sometimes
these guys read these newsgroups and I do believe have sued successfully
in the past....
  #22  
Old April 5th 06, 11:06 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:44:36 -0400, "Nikki"
wrote:


"Frank" wrote in message
groups.com...
Nikki wrote,
within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that
coming..............

Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


That is what I said......in most cases its not the stores fault, they are
running a business (by the way I was speaking of chain stores not little
community stores) and more about things like koi disease (the one they
are
seeing a lot of, and the contagious-ulcer disease) things that take time
to
show up, I was saying the breeders have them for sometime so could notice
something, then you have them and can notice things, but its unlikely the
store who has them for maybe a week.... along with hundreds of others at
the
same time, I think petsmart has 100 tanks, and several fish in each, it
would be hard for them to notice diseases that you have to find from
watching behavior and things like that.
NIk

While we're doing a bit of bashing on certain stores and distributors
and suppliers and growers, I really believe that the vast majority of
people in this industry, like the population in general, are well
intentioned people trying to do what's good and right. Just like you
and me. .



-- Mister Gardener


That said, let's get back to bashing WalMart

Your funny, I dont know about your Local WM, but ours just got turned in to
a *Super* WM, the funny thing is .....I think before they changed and got
bigger their fish dept was much bigger (meaning fish in tanks not supplies)
I went the other day for the first time in at least 1-2 years and there was
only 12 tanks, 4 held different types goldfish, 1 tank had feeders, and
another some oscars, which they always have, i got mine there when i was
younger and he lived many of years, and they had some guppies, i was kind of
suprised if i remember right they used to have much more of a selection.
NIk


  #23  
Old April 5th 06, 11:08 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Mister Gardener wrote:
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:44:36 -0400, "Nikki"
wrote:


"Frank" wrote in message
egroups.com...

Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that
coming..............

Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


That is what I said......in most cases its not the stores fault, they are
running a business (by the way I was speaking of chain stores not little
community stores) and more about things like koi disease (the one they
are seeing a lot of, and the contagious-ulcer disease) things that take
time to show up, I was saying the breeders have them for sometime so
could notice something, then you have them and can notice things, but its
unlikely the store who has them for maybe a week.... along with hundreds
of others at the same time, I think petsmart has 100 tanks, and several
fish in each, it would be hard for them to notice diseases that you have
to find from watching behavior and things like that.
NIk


While we're doing a bit of bashing on certain stores and distributors
and suppliers and growers, I really believe that the vast majority of
people in this industry, like the population in general, are well
intentioned people trying to do what's good and right. Just like you
and me. That said, let's get back to bashing WalMart.



-- Mister Gardener


Just a word of caution before bashing individual stores...sometimes these
guys read these newsgroups and I do believe have sued successfully in the
past....



You would have to say something that was not true and for the purpose of
causing them damage, other wise you are just stating your opinion.....
Nik


  #24  
Old April 5th 06, 11:18 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(

Frank wrote:
Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that coming..............



Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


I've been considering my response to this most of the day....I didn't
want to launch into anything without proper consideration...

OK I might do this point by point....

1. Yes, I agree that inexperienced fish keepers may well kill their new
fish through not aclimatizing them, bad water quality or even Old Tank
Syndrome...however how do you answer for those of us with more
experience who test our water, maintain our tanks and spend hours
acclimatizing our fish still to get the deaths????

2. I visit the stores where I buy my fish at all sorts of odd times...at
the some of the low peak times I will see dead fish in the
tanks...weekends, the time that most people get to go, you will never,
ever see a dead fish...so it would be really easy for the store to tell
the majority of its customers that there are no issues with the fish in
the tank (why? because they've been round with the net) - I'm not saying
you ever did this, but I am saying that it happens....

3. Fish will not develop parasites or disease in a sterile
environment...if we are QTing are fish in such environments then the
disease/parasite has come in with the fish...it was not there to start
with...maybe you are talking about people putting their fish into their
existing tanks but even then it is hard to swallow that a fish gets ich
in a tank that has never, ever had this...and if it did it certainly
came in with a purchased fish...

4. It is true that fish are at their weakest when first purchased so
more susceptible to disease...they have been imported and then shipped
on again by the wholesaler, and then shipped on again by us the
purchasers...but this does not mean that the purchaser is at fault...in
fact, Pets at Home in the UK (and apart from goldfish many moons ago
I've not bought fish there) I was told that they guarentee their fish
for two weeks just because of the stress of the acclimatisation period
and that this is when most deaths occur. I don't know if they request
water samples or not....

5. The two places I shop will not sell their fish the minute they get
them but I have noticed this. They get the fish in and keep them off
sale for between 5-10 days. The fish go on sale...within days they are
taken off sale again. Now you can't tell me they don't do this because
customer's are not coming back reporting deaths or they are identifying
a problem that they have not seen before...if I bought the fish in the
period between them going on sale and going off again I would be
suffering losses or disease....that is not in the 99% of people who kill
their own new fish...but if I was slightly less savvy I might believe it
to be true.

6. I follow a policy of not buying fish until I know they have been in
stock with no issues for one month. The staff in the places I go give me
the nod whether to buy or not - probably down to the amount of money I
spend per month...this has taught me that building up a relationship
with the people that you buy your fish from is well worth the extra cost
(which in fact is neglible...

7. It can take weeks or months for an illness to become apparent. The
retailer, and possibly the wholesaler, cannot predict this. I had 7
tetras die from NTD (I think) - they had been in the shop for 4 weeks
plus and been in my tank for 4 weeks plus....it wasn't the fault of my
retailer or me...parasites in Clown Loaches can take months to come to
the fore....I have had my current batch of Clowns in QT for at least 3
months waiting for their new home to be ready - one dropped dead for no
reason last week....the only explanation is an internal parasite (no ich
or water quality issues) - seen it before...I can't hold the LFS
responsible and wouldn't but I'm not holding myself responsible either....

8. If it is down to acclimatization and water quality how come the
majority of fish acclimatized in the same way live and some die, when
bought at the same time and introduced to the tank in the same bag in
the same way? I recently added 3 Yoyo loaches to a tank...took very
great care to drip the water in....2 are living and very healthy and
active...the 3rd one died within 24 hours...if it was osmotic shock or
anything I did wrong I would expect all 3 to have died...or was it down
to a problem with the fish itself????

So, I challenge your assumption that 99% of "newly purchased" fish die
through bad fish keeping/management....some do, of course - but there is
an inherent problem in the fish trade and we would be in total denial to
say that it doesn't exist...we can blame the fishkeepers - that is easy
- most do little to research their finned friends or maintain their
tanks...but if those that do still see problems I believe we need to
look a little deeper than just making the remark that "Fact is, 99% of
the time, people kill their own fish.."

Oh dear, second night in a row on this thread that Gill has been on her
soap box....

Gill
  #25  
Old April 5th 06, 11:20 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(

Nikki wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

Mister Gardener wrote:

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:44:36 -0400, "Nikki"
wrote:



"Frank" wrote in message
legroups.com...


Nikki wrote,


within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that
coming..............

Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


That is what I said......in most cases its not the stores fault, they are
running a business (by the way I was speaking of chain stores not little
community stores) and more about things like koi disease (the one they
are seeing a lot of, and the contagious-ulcer disease) things that take
time to show up, I was saying the breeders have them for sometime so
could notice something, then you have them and can notice things, but its
unlikely the store who has them for maybe a week.... along with hundreds
of others at the same time, I think petsmart has 100 tanks, and several
fish in each, it would be hard for them to notice diseases that you have
to find from watching behavior and things like that.
NIk

While we're doing a bit of bashing on certain stores and distributors
and suppliers and growers, I really believe that the vast majority of
people in this industry, like the population in general, are well
intentioned people trying to do what's good and right. Just like you
and me. That said, let's get back to bashing WalMart.



-- Mister Gardener


Just a word of caution before bashing individual stores...sometimes these
guys read these newsgroups and I do believe have sued successfully in the
past....




You would have to say something that was not true and for the purpose of
causing them damage, other wise you are just stating your opinion.....
Nik



So maybe a few sprinklings of JMO, IME or YMMV wouldn't come a miss from
all of us from time to time...be it beating on a store or beating on one
another....

JMO

Gill
  #26  
Old April 6th 06, 12:02 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:18:21 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

Bottom Posted - I tried to clip but didn't dare.

Frank wrote:
Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that coming..............



Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


I've been considering my response to this most of the day....I didn't
want to launch into anything without proper consideration...

OK I might do this point by point....

1. Yes, I agree that inexperienced fish keepers may well kill their new
fish through not aclimatizing them, bad water quality or even Old Tank
Syndrome...however how do you answer for those of us with more
experience who test our water, maintain our tanks and spend hours
acclimatizing our fish still to get the deaths????

2. I visit the stores where I buy my fish at all sorts of odd times...at
the some of the low peak times I will see dead fish in the
tanks...weekends, the time that most people get to go, you will never,
ever see a dead fish...so it would be really easy for the store to tell
the majority of its customers that there are no issues with the fish in
the tank (why? because they've been round with the net) - I'm not saying
you ever did this, but I am saying that it happens....

3. Fish will not develop parasites or disease in a sterile
environment...if we are QTing are fish in such environments then the
disease/parasite has come in with the fish...it was not there to start
with...maybe you are talking about people putting their fish into their
existing tanks but even then it is hard to swallow that a fish gets ich
in a tank that has never, ever had this...and if it did it certainly
came in with a purchased fish...

4. It is true that fish are at their weakest when first purchased so
more susceptible to disease...they have been imported and then shipped
on again by the wholesaler, and then shipped on again by us the
purchasers...but this does not mean that the purchaser is at fault...in
fact, Pets at Home in the UK (and apart from goldfish many moons ago
I've not bought fish there) I was told that they guarentee their fish
for two weeks just because of the stress of the acclimatisation period
and that this is when most deaths occur. I don't know if they request
water samples or not....

5. The two places I shop will not sell their fish the minute they get
them but I have noticed this. They get the fish in and keep them off
sale for between 5-10 days. The fish go on sale...within days they are
taken off sale again. Now you can't tell me they don't do this because
customer's are not coming back reporting deaths or they are identifying
a problem that they have not seen before...if I bought the fish in the
period between them going on sale and going off again I would be
suffering losses or disease....that is not in the 99% of people who kill
their own new fish...but if I was slightly less savvy I might believe it
to be true.

6. I follow a policy of not buying fish until I know they have been in
stock with no issues for one month. The staff in the places I go give me
the nod whether to buy or not - probably down to the amount of money I
spend per month...this has taught me that building up a relationship
with the people that you buy your fish from is well worth the extra cost
(which in fact is neglible...

7. It can take weeks or months for an illness to become apparent. The
retailer, and possibly the wholesaler, cannot predict this. I had 7
tetras die from NTD (I think) - they had been in the shop for 4 weeks
plus and been in my tank for 4 weeks plus....it wasn't the fault of my
retailer or me...parasites in Clown Loaches can take months to come to
the fore....I have had my current batch of Clowns in QT for at least 3
months waiting for their new home to be ready - one dropped dead for no
reason last week....the only explanation is an internal parasite (no ich
or water quality issues) - seen it before...I can't hold the LFS
responsible and wouldn't but I'm not holding myself responsible either....

8. If it is down to acclimatization and water quality how come the
majority of fish acclimatized in the same way live and some die, when
bought at the same time and introduced to the tank in the same bag in
the same way? I recently added 3 Yoyo loaches to a tank...took very
great care to drip the water in....2 are living and very healthy and
active...the 3rd one died within 24 hours...if it was osmotic shock or
anything I did wrong I would expect all 3 to have died...or was it down
to a problem with the fish itself????

So, I challenge your assumption that 99% of "newly purchased" fish die
through bad fish keeping/management....some do, of course - but there is
an inherent problem in the fish trade and we would be in total denial to
say that it doesn't exist...we can blame the fishkeepers - that is easy
- most do little to research their finned friends or maintain their
tanks...but if those that do still see problems I believe we need to
look a little deeper than just making the remark that "Fact is, 99% of
the time, people kill their own fish.."

Oh dear, second night in a row on this thread that Gill has been on her
soap box....

Gill


This to Frank - How many and what kind of diseases or ailments of our
fish come from stuff that is present in our own atmosphere, skin,
equipment at all times. I think I read something that ich is one of
those things, a spore floating around in the air just waiting for a
host. Can this kind of phenomenon explain why diseases which we've
never seen in our tanks suddenly appear, and we want to blame someone
else for putting that disease in our tanks with purchased fish?

-- Mister Gardener
  #27  
Old April 6th 06, 01:36 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Frank wrote:
Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that coming..............



Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


I've been considering my response to this most of the day....I didn't want
to launch into anything without proper consideration...

OK I might do this point by point....

1. Yes, I agree that inexperienced fish keepers may well kill their new
fish through not aclimatizing them, bad water quality or even Old Tank
Syndrome...however how do you answer for those of us with more experience
who test our water, maintain our tanks and spend hours acclimatizing our
fish still to get the deaths????

2. I visit the stores where I buy my fish at all sorts of odd times...at
the some of the low peak times I will see dead fish in the
tanks...weekends, the time that most people get to go, you will never,
ever see a dead fish...so it would be really easy for the store to tell
the majority of its customers that there are no issues with the fish in
the tank (why? because they've been round with the net) - I'm not saying
you ever did this, but I am saying that it happens....

3. Fish will not develop parasites or disease in a sterile
environment...if we are QTing are fish in such environments then the
disease/parasite has come in with the fish...it was not there to start
with...maybe you are talking about people putting their fish into their
existing tanks but even then it is hard to swallow that a fish gets ich in
a tank that has never, ever had this...and if it did it certainly came in
with a purchased fish...

4. It is true that fish are at their weakest when first purchased so more
susceptible to disease...they have been imported and then shipped on again
by the wholesaler, and then shipped on again by us the purchasers...but
this does not mean that the purchaser is at fault...in fact, Pets at Home
in the UK (and apart from goldfish many moons ago I've not bought fish
there) I was told that they guarentee their fish for two weeks just
because of the stress of the acclimatisation period and that this is when
most deaths occur. I don't know if they request water samples or not....

5. The two places I shop will not sell their fish the minute they get them
but I have noticed this. They get the fish in and keep them off sale for
between 5-10 days. The fish go on sale...within days they are taken off
sale again. Now you can't tell me they don't do this because customer's
are not coming back reporting deaths or they are identifying a problem
that they have not seen before...if I bought the fish in the period
between them going on sale and going off again I would be suffering losses
or disease....that is not in the 99% of people who kill their own new
fish...but if I was slightly less savvy I might believe it to be true.

6. I follow a policy of not buying fish until I know they have been in
stock with no issues for one month. The staff in the places I go give me
the nod whether to buy or not - probably down to the amount of money I
spend per month...this has taught me that building up a relationship with
the people that you buy your fish from is well worth the extra cost (which
in fact is neglible...

7. It can take weeks or months for an illness to become apparent. The
retailer, and possibly the wholesaler, cannot predict this. I had 7 tetras
die from NTD (I think) - they had been in the shop for 4 weeks plus and
been in my tank for 4 weeks plus....it wasn't the fault of my retailer or
me...parasites in Clown Loaches can take months to come to the fore....I
have had my current batch of Clowns in QT for at least 3 months waiting
for their new home to be ready - one dropped dead for no reason last
week....the only explanation is an internal parasite (no ich or water
quality issues) - seen it before...I can't hold the LFS responsible and
wouldn't but I'm not holding myself responsible either....

8. If it is down to acclimatization and water quality how come the
majority of fish acclimatized in the same way live and some die, when
bought at the same time and introduced to the tank in the same bag in the
same way? I recently added 3 Yoyo loaches to a tank...took very great care
to drip the water in....2 are living and very healthy and active...the 3rd
one died within 24 hours...if it was osmotic shock or anything I did wrong
I would expect all 3 to have died...or was it down to a problem with the
fish itself????

So, I challenge your assumption that 99% of "newly purchased" fish die
through bad fish keeping/management....some do, of course - but there is
an inherent problem in the fish trade and we would be in total denial to
say that it doesn't exist...we can blame the fishkeepers - that is easy -
most do little to research their finned friends or maintain their
tanks...but if those that do still see problems I believe we need to look
a little deeper than just making the remark that "Fact is, 99% of the
time, people kill their own fish.."

Oh dear, second night in a row on this thread that Gill has been on her
soap box....

Gill



I think as long as you are right.......you can hang out up on top of that
soap box.
No really, you make some very good points, we are all aware of mistakes
people make when buying fish, and losing them, sometimes before the first
day, I think the reason some die and some live can also be traced back to
some being more healthy to begin with then others.
I was wondering, fish can get ich from a drop in temp, I guess bad water
conditions, ect, if you have a new healthy fish in a brand new tank, could
that fish get ich from say a drop in temp, or would the ich have to be
present to begin with, for the fish to get it?
the reasons you state ...are the reasons I said what I did, its likely with
some diseases a breeder who has had certain fish in their care for a while
might notice some of the bad diseases like koi disease, and things like
that, it takes time to show, people bringing the fish home will soon enough
notice the fish getting sick, I just think in those cases fish are in and
out of retail stores to quick for them to see the illness, that koi disease
they say it can take months for it to show, because of the fact the water
temp has to hit a certain temp before symptoms start to show. There are many
things that can go wrong and they are not going to come about till some time
after you bring them home, it does not make it your fault, at the store you
can do the best your able to inspect the fish, they are going to act
different, some are new there and just getting used to being in that tank,
they are stocked with a lot of other fish, a whole host of things cause them
to act different. When I bought those 5 goldfish they were different kinds
but 4 did great 1 died the next day, they all went though the same thing,
all went to the same tank. I don't always think its our fault some times we
got to do the best we can with what we got. Just like its not always the
stores fault, some stores are great and do the right thing, others are not
concerned with what they are selling and just want to make money, same with
breeders, there is enough blame to go around, enough that it can't be our
fault every time. I think for a store to say this fish was fine when it left
here is not *always* right, because sometimes that fish might have been sick
even if the others were not
Nik


  #28  
Old April 6th 06, 03:58 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
...
While we're doing a bit of bashing on certain stores and distributors
and suppliers and growers, I really believe that the vast majority of
people in this industry, like the population in general, are well
intentioned people trying to do what's good and right. Just like you
and me. That said, let's get back to bashing WalMart.

==============
WM's managers will always tell you they have a hard time finding
fish-knowledgeable people to work in the pet dept. This is true I'm sure.
OTOH if they paid their employees a living wage with some benefits maybe
they could find such people. But as most of us know it's not the fish that
they make the money on - it's the medications and other supplies that pay
the rent. The man in the pet section knows nothing about fish and admits
it. He also claims they keep calling him away to other parts of the store
such as the registers when someone doesn't show up for work. His time with
the fish is very limited. WM just needs to stop carrying live fish. We
need better laws to protect pets in this country.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




  #29  
Old April 6th 06, 04:01 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Just a word of caution before bashing individual stores...sometimes these
guys read these newsgroups and I do believe have sued successfully in the
past....

==========================
I think it's about time some of these stores remove their pet dept.'s or
agree to hire knowledgeable people to run them paying whatever it takes to
keep employees longer than a few weeks or months.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




  #30  
Old April 6th 06, 04:33 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
Frank wrote:
Nikki wrote,

within a few weeks things show up, and they get sick,
I think in some cases a store is unable to see that coming..............



Now doesn't that make more since than a wholesaler or breeder
'unloading' diseased fish - fish that at the time we buy them, have no
visible symptoms of disease or parasitic infections for days, or
sometimes weeks? Most of the time, the fish's immune system starts to
fail while they are in the shipping bag. Then, at the store, if the
acclimation is rushed, diseases and parasites get their toe-hold. Now,
you have the WM stores - *if* they do get an employee that knows what's
what with fish, they don't give them the time it takes to take care of
the fish properly. They float the shipped bags of fish long enough to
get the temp the same as the tanks temp, if that! Plus, they (WM)
don't care if they make any money off the fish - they make their money
off the supplys. WM buys their fish from the same wholesalers as the
big chain stores and the LPS - the difference is the care and time the
fish get after they get to the store. Fact is, if you buy good looking
fish from a store and they get sick, diseased or infected with
parasites *after* one gets them home, how is that the fault of the
stores? I have seen people buy healthy fish only to kill them due to
Old Tank Syndrome or Osmotic Pressure Shock time after time. And half
the time if the fish do live, between their second movement and
half-ass acclimation, the fish become sick and diseased - again, no
fault of the stores. Best way to tell if it's the stores fault, is to
go back to the store and see if the other fish in the tank they came
out of are sick. Our stores sold healthy fish, we did *not* give money
back, or replacements. If someone brought back a dead fish, we showed
them the still healthy fish in the tank they bought the fish out of...
Fact is, 99% of the time, people kill their own fish............. Frank


I've been considering my response to this most of the day....I didn't want
to launch into anything without proper consideration...

OK I might do this point by point....

1. Yes, I agree that inexperienced fish keepers may well kill their new
fish through not aclimatizing them, bad water quality or even Old Tank
Syndrome...however how do you answer for those of us with more experience
who test our water, maintain our tanks and spend hours acclimatizing our
fish still to get the deaths????


Brevity snips
Or how does one explain fish being delivered to the store obviously diseased
with fuzz (Fungus? Bacterial? BOTH?) and ICK the first things you see. Who
would be to blame? The breeder or the wholesaler? How healthy can the rest
of the fish in the same bag be? What is the wholesalers place like? We as
customers don't get to see this. Example: How many DEAD lionheads did they
dump in the trash before I got there that day? How many, already showing
sores, were put in the "sick tank" they claim they have? A tank I didn't
see or notice while there.

2. I visit the stores where I buy my fish at all sorts of odd times...at
the some of the low peak times I will see dead fish in the
tanks...weekends, the time that most people get to go, you will never,
ever see a dead fish...so it would be really easy for the store to tell
the majority of its customers that there are no issues with the fish in
the tank (why? because they've been round with the net) - I'm not saying
you ever did this, but I am saying that it happens....


It sure does. My job was to remove all the dead fish when I came in in the
mornings. By the time we opened for business there wasn't a dead fish to be
seen. All those that looked really bad were also removed to a "hospital
tank" in the backroom where most died despite medication (I don't remember
what they used). The owner's husband would top off the tanks before closing
and add medication so at least most parasites weren't a problem.

3. Fish will not develop parasites or disease in a sterile
environment...if we are QTing are fish in such environments then the
disease/parasite has come in with the fish...it was not there to start
with...maybe you are talking about people putting their fish into their
existing tanks but even then it is hard to swallow that a fish gets ich in
a tank that has never, ever had this...and if it did it certainly came in
with a purchased fish...


The LHs sure didn't get contagious-ulcers in my Q-tank.

6. I follow a policy of not buying fish until I know they have been in
stock with no issues for one month.


That wouldn't work here as the fish are usually sold out way before a month.
Most stores get weekly shipments.

So, I challenge your assumption that 99% of "newly purchased" fish die
through bad fish keeping/management....some do, of course - but there is
an inherent problem in the fish trade and we would be in total denial to
say that it doesn't exist...we can blame the fishkeepers - that is easy -
most do little to research their finned friends or maintain their
tanks...but if those that do still see problems I believe we need to look
a little deeper than just making the remark that "Fact is, 99% of the
time, people kill their own fish.."


I could hardly believe he said that and had to read it twice. That would
mean only 1% of fish buyers are knowledgeable or value their new
acquisitions. I valued those little LHs beyond reason and took the utmost
care with them and of them.... and look what happened! :*(

Oh dear, second night in a row on this thread that Gill has been on her
soap box....

Gill

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Aquarium FAQ are at: http://faq.thekrib.com/
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




 




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