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Neon tetras dropping like flies



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 29th 06, 12:57 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

Frank wrote:
Hi Gill - turn the lights off in the room and tank hood. With a flash
light, look just below the dorsal fin. If the patchy looking areas are
pronounced and have a slight yellowish tint, it's Oodinum. With the
lights on, the patchy looking areas look like dry areas. Their slime
coat will also be thicker...
With flex. disease, these patchy areas would be fuzzy - you said
no fluffy stuff...
Neon tetra disease, the fish become restless and stop schooling.
Then they loose coloration and become lumpy. Difficulty swimming in 3
to 5 days at which time about 50% of the infected fish's spine becomes
curved. These symptoms don't match what you posted! .............
Frank


Flavobacterium isn't always fuzzy. We saw it some in the store where I
worked and the diagnosis was usually confirmed by microscopy. The
infections could look white and downy without fuzz, brownish and waxy,
or cottony.

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  #12  
Old March 29th 06, 01:05 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
NetMax wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
NetMax wrote:
"Altum" wrote in message
Gill Passman wrote:
I bought 12 Neons for my new tank at the beginning of the month (just
over 3 weeks ago).

snip
The other possibility is Flavobacterium, presenting as "saddleback
disease". If your neons were stressed or damaged in shipping, they may
be susceptible to it. The rapid deaths are typical of Flavobacterium
septicemia. You can treat Flavobacterium in quarantine with
acriflavine & salt if the disease has not gone internal. Potassium
permanganate is supposed to work too. I doubt that neons would survive
a salt dip.

snip
From my very limited experience, the symptoms appear nearly identical to
NTD, and the contagion limits itself to the Neons (but I never exposed
other tetras to it). This is consistent with NTD, however I don't think
true NTD acts that quickly, nor does it attack so many fish
simultaneously, which is why I treated it as an external bacterial
infection. Also, NTD is not treatable (in a practical sense), and I was
successful treating this (after about 3 different episodes) which also
suggests it was just a quick nasty bacteria (saddleback). In hindsight,
I should have added a Platy to the tank. They are susceptible to
saddleback and not NTD. I just don't think of adding fish to tanks under
medication.

snip

Well, I don't know for sure how long the fish have been at the LFS or how
long their exposure might have been...I will check with them...the kill
off is one or two a day over a week - average one a day now I've found the
5th one again....I could add a Platy but it seems quite mean to put a
healthy platy into a diseased tank just to get a diagnosis...so won't be
doing it....

Neon's don't seem to be the hardiest of fish...although one of the
cheapest...maybe their lack of hardiness is reflected in the cost (me
being cynical here)....


LOL, If Neons could talk, their last words would be "I feel fine, I feel
great, I'm dead". There doesn't seem to much of a sick & diseased stage
when they encounter a fast acting disease.

If it is something else the fish are best left with the tank being used as
an over-sized QT tank for a few more weeks....I will see what the death
rate is...


I would pull them out now. Chances are, they are either sick, will be sick
or will be carriers.

Maybe they have fallen foul to whatever killed the 2 Panda
Cories....another question to be asking....the LFS believed they were just
weak stock and they do normally warn me off any suspect deliveries....

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the highest
death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and high pH....

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't fall
foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I had found
every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I was
hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way if it
will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for a number
of months...


One one hand, if saddleback, it acts quickly and dies off relatively
quickly. On the other hand, 130g is a lot of water, and volume skews
expected time periods. I find that unless you target the disease
accurately, there is more of a chance that it lingers in larger tanks. All
in all, your mortality is not completely unexpected. New tank, new fish, I
don't expect serious stability until about 3 months.

Gill


I don't think I'm helping . Maybe I should be looking into smuggling you
anti-biotics ;~).

Seriously, pull the weak and affected, look for some stabilization, add the
other fish, again look for stabilization and pull out any suspects. You
don't want any disease to acquire a host to multiply from. Limit the
contagion concentration, give the fish's immune system time to ramp up,
give them lots of fresh water and a varied diet. Personally, I seek a point
of stabilization that contains as many (or more) of the fish I want in that
tank. Then I leave the tank alone for years. When I want more fish, I
usually set up another tank.
--
www.NetMax.tk


  #13  
Old March 29th 06, 01:17 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

Gill Passman wrote:

Well, I don't know for sure how long the fish have been at the LFS or
how long their exposure might have been...I will check with them...the
kill off is one or two a day over a week - average one a day now I've
found the 5th one again....I could add a Platy but it seems quite mean
to put a healthy platy into a diseased tank just to get a diagnosis...so
won't be doing it....

Neon's don't seem to be the hardiest of fish...although one of the
cheapest...maybe their lack of hardiness is reflected in the cost (me
being cynical here)....

If it is something else the fish are best left with the tank being used
as an over-sized QT tank for a few more weeks....I will see what the
death rate is...

Maybe they have fallen foul to whatever killed the 2 Panda
Cories....another question to be asking....the LFS believed they were
just weak stock and they do normally warn me off any suspect deliveries....

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the
highest death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and high
pH....

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't fall
foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I had
found every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I
was hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way if
it will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for a
number of months...

Gill


I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons
are really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be
open-minded about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in
quarantine, or on the whole tank.

Don't be disheartened. Any tank to which you add new fish is
essentially a quarantine tank for the next couple of months. Remember
that you will take all your losses now - things will settle down a
couple of months after you stop buying livestock.

Just thinking aloud here... Shouldn't the old, smaller tank be the
quarantine? What if you remove the new fish to a spare 40l tank or even
a tub or trashcan with a heater and sponge filter. Use ammonia to keep
the new tank cycled and run it fishless for a couple of weeks. Then
move your old fish into the new tank. Quarantine ALL your new purchases
in the old tank for at least a month - maybe get bigger batches and the
wait for two months?

Would this even work and not expose the old, healthy fish to problems?
Frank? NetMax?

--
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  #14  
Old March 29th 06, 02:18 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

"Altum" wrote in message
om...
Gill Passman wrote:

Well, I don't know for sure how long the fish have been at the LFS or how
long their exposure might have been...I will check with them...the kill
off is one or two a day over a week - average one a day now I've found
the 5th one again....I could add a Platy but it seems quite mean to put a
healthy platy into a diseased tank just to get a diagnosis...so won't be
doing it....

Neon's don't seem to be the hardiest of fish...although one of the
cheapest...maybe their lack of hardiness is reflected in the cost (me
being cynical here)....

If it is something else the fish are best left with the tank being used
as an over-sized QT tank for a few more weeks....I will see what the
death rate is...

Maybe they have fallen foul to whatever killed the 2 Panda
Cories....another question to be asking....the LFS believed they were
just weak stock and they do normally warn me off any suspect
deliveries....

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the highest
death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and high pH....

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't fall
foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I had found
every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I was
hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way if it
will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for a number
of months...

Gill


I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons are
really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be open-minded
about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in quarantine,
or on the whole tank.

Don't be disheartened. Any tank to which you add new fish is essentially
a quarantine tank for the next couple of months. Remember that you will
take all your losses now - things will settle down a couple of months
after you stop buying livestock.

Just thinking aloud here... Shouldn't the old, smaller tank be the
quarantine? What if you remove the new fish to a spare 40l tank or even a
tub or trashcan with a heater and sponge filter. Use ammonia to keep the
new tank cycled and run it fishless for a couple of weeks. Then move your
old fish into the new tank. Quarantine ALL your new purchases in the old
tank for at least a month - maybe get bigger batches and the wait for two
months?

Would this even work and not expose the old, healthy fish to problems?
Frank? NetMax?

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com


imo, yes, in theory, though dependant on the exact nature of the contagion
in the 130g. In practise, with all these moves there is an increased chance
of cross-contamination. Also the weaker fish in the smaller tank will be
exposed to higher concentrations and the stress of the move and the new
environment, so you're not stacking the odds in their favour. Emptying the
130g stock into multiple holding tanks would be more effective, but does
Gill have a bunch of tanks?

There is also the question of what can be added to the 130g during fishless
cycling which would accelerate the demise of the contagion. Some contagions
are particularly persistent.

There is merit in either approach. Mine is a bit more holistic towards
survival of the fittest and using their immune system. Yours is an assisted
holistic approach, trying to get that tank ready faster, and staging the
fish for nuking with Mela/Pima (which is not exactly potent stuff). ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk


  #15  
Old March 29th 06, 02:19 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

Altum wrote,
Flavobacterium isn't always fuzzy......


I have never seen it without it being fuzzy or cottony. Besides, flex.
disease kills fast, even faster than fast with hard alkaline water.
High temps. speeds deaths up even more. Gill said they were dying one a
day for a week - flex is highly contagious and would have wiped out
infected fish long before that. Within 24 hours, those white fuzzy
patchy areas get a reddish rim of which the center turns into an ulcer
(open sore). With larger fish, the ulcer turns yellow to orange in
color (day 3). Smaller fish don't live that long!
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/flex.html take a peek.....
A fish with brownish waxy looking patchs, I would suspect a bacterial
viruse called Lymphocytosis........ Frank

  #16  
Old March 29th 06, 02:28 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

Altum wrote,
Shouldn't the old, smaller tank be the quarantine?


If it's Flex. disease (bacterial), I would have them in a 5 or 10 gal.
quarantine tank, tub, or trashcan, but we disagree - I think it's
Oodinum (parasites), and therefore would treat the tank as well as the
fish ;-) ............... Frank

  #17  
Old March 29th 06, 05:37 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies - I might have an answer

Frank wrote:
Altum wrote,
Flavobacterium isn't always fuzzy......


I have never seen it without it being fuzzy or cottony. Besides, flex.
disease kills fast, even faster than fast with hard alkaline water.
High temps. speeds deaths up even more. Gill said they were dying one a
day for a week - flex is highly contagious and would have wiped out
infected fish long before that. Within 24 hours, those white fuzzy
patchy areas get a reddish rim of which the center turns into an ulcer
(open sore). With larger fish, the ulcer turns yellow to orange in
color (day 3). Smaller fish don't live that long!
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/flex.html take a peek.....
A fish with brownish waxy looking patchs, I would suspect a bacterial
viruse called Lymphocytosis........ Frank


Check this out!

Journal of Fish Diseases
Volume 25 Page 253 - May 2002
doi:10.1046/j.1365-2761.2002.00364.x
Volume 25 Issue 5


Muscle infections in imported neon tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers:
limited occurrence of microsporidia and predominance of severe forms of
columnaris disease caused by an Asian genomovar of Flavobacterium columnare
C Michel, S Messiaen & J-F Bernardet

Serious and repeated mortality recently experienced in imported neon
tetra, Paracheirodon innesi Myers, by French ornamental fish traders and
empirically ascribed to the microsporidian Pleistophora hyphessobryconis
on the basis of clinical signs, was investigated. Although Pleistophora
sp. spores were observed in a few cases, laboratory results demonstrated
that similar clinical signs were generally caused by the pathogenic
bacterium Flavobacterium columnare. In all cases, muscle was the main
target tissue, and the most noticeable external signs were limited to
fading of skin colouration and the development of white areas of
necrosis. Three isolates were studied and typed by bacteriological tests
and molecular techniques. Although their phenotypic characteristics were
in accordance with F. columnare descriptions, except for higher optimal
growth temperatures (1830 C), they all appeared to differ genetically
from common European and American isolates and to be similar to Asian
isolates recently assigned to a new genomovar by Japanese workers.
Experimental infections suggested the isolates were highly virulent for
ornamental species. The use of polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and
restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) for identification and
detection of the agent in tissue samples, and the implications of this
finding for health control management of imported fish and domestic
species are discussed.

From the article "Antimicrobial testing (Table 3) demonstrated
noticeable resistance to aminosides, polymyxin B and trimethoprim,
inconstant resistance to sulphonamides, and rather limited or
questionable susceptibility to tetracyclines and flumequine. These
results indicate very limited treatment possibilities for infected fish."

--
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  #18  
Old March 29th 06, 01:39 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:27:47 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

I have had mixed success with Neons, they usually account for the
highest death rate with new purchases...might be the hard water and high
pH....


You are probably being kind when you say "mixed success". In the
building of my present school of a dozen neons, I had to replace 4 or
5 before my population stabilized. I didn't even get upset about the
losses, I just automatically expect them and allow for them when I
purchase neons. The earliest signs of trouble was the area on their
sides turning white. These came from 2 different stores, at one I paid
$1.99, at the other I got in on a 89 cent special. My losses were
equal between the two sources. Thinking back, I initially cycled that
tank with a few platies, and the neons were the first to come on board
after the cycle. That was when a couple of my platies got into the fin
and tail fluffies, and one had some on her mouth, and I did my first
grand experiment with (look out, here comes that word), Melafix. I
lost one platy, the others healed. And I don't recall a single neon
death since then. Do ya think? Nah. Couldn't be.

My main concern is that the Panda cories and Boesman rainbows won't fall
foul to this...from my reading it is unlikely but I just wish I had
found every single body in case they have injested any parasite....

How long does everyone suggest I keep this tank QT'd after the last
death???? As most of you know this is my new pride and joy tank and I
was hoping to move some of my existing fish over into it - but no way if
it will compromise them.....Tetras of any type I guess are out for a
number of months...


In the days and weeks immediately following the neon and platy
problem, I added some cories and a few other fish. My angels are in
there now. There has been no sign of disease. Whatever got the Neons
was limited to the Neons. I'll write off the Platy problem as a wild
card, they were stressed having been moved from very old pH 6 GH/KH
zippo to new water.

-- Mister Gardener
  #19  
Old March 29th 06, 01:44 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:17:06 GMT, Altum
wrote:


I forgot the panda cories! This is probably Flavobacterium since it's
jumping species. It's possible that the shipment of neons got a little
bit of ammonia burn in the gills and its made them vulnerable. Neons
are really packed into those shipping bags! Since this is my "be
open-minded about MelaFix & PimaFix" week, I'd go with PimaFix either in
quarantine, or on the whole tank.


In my one grand experiment with Melafix, I used Pima at the same time,
according to label. I will never fully understand the difference
between the two, the label indicates that combining the two
essentially increases the power of Mela. Come to think of it, the
price of that stuff, and a 130 gallon tank for what is it, 7 days?

-- Mister Gardener
  #20  
Old March 29th 06, 02:46 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Neon tetras dropping like flies

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:41:45 -0500, NetMax wrote:
Saddleback, very quick. I used to treat with Kanamycine (or Neomycine) and
(climbs into asbestos overalls) MelaFix (one of the few practical uses I
found for the stuff). This was the primary reason I kept more than one Neon
tank going.


I hate to disagree with you Netmax, but I have NEVER had any
benefit out of melafix. I wonder if it's different here in the
UK - I've tried it for various conditions, but no improvement at
all, except possibly skin repair in my barbs.

What I use is Esha 2000 - freely available in the UK and it does
seem to help pretty much everything! I had an outbreak that sounds
similar in my tetra tank - I added cardinals and didn't know they
weren't quarantined - and Esha 2000 brought a halt to it. I
recommend it very highly.

Anyway, just another opinion to throw into the mix!
--
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