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Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 11th 06, 02:30 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

"muddyfox" wrote in
oups.com:

I think I would rather pay double and have them shipped in something
more comfortable for them, but since a lot of folk never see how
they're shipped I guess it will carry on since they don't die and it's
commercially more profitable.


They're amazingly resilient. The only time I ever find one dead is in the
rare occasion that the bag leaked and drained completely or the fish was
sealed in without any water--ya, it happens.
  #12  
Old March 11th 06, 03:01 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

On 11 Mar 2006 02:10:00 -0800, "muddyfox"
wrote:


dc wrote:
What containers?


Each betta was sitting in about 1 inch of water in the bottom of a
plastic cup not wide enough for the betta to keep it's body straight.


Bettas usually come shipped in heat-sealed plastic bags just about twice
the size of a dime bag, with only enough water for the fish to stay wet and
partly submerged. This is part of the reason why Bettas can be sold so
cheaply, they require very little water weight per fish to ship.


I think I would rather pay double and have them shipped in something
more comfortable for them, but since a lot of folk never see how
they're shipped I guess it will carry on since they don't die and it's
commercially more profitable.

I'm not agreeing with the whole thing, just saying it like it is.


Yes, I've seen the little bags too.


A article in a recent TFH or FAMA or somewhere about new breathable
plastic bags for shipping fish. The material of the bag someone allows
oxygen to pass through without letting water out. Benefits include no
air space is needed in the bag, allowing twice as many bags to fit in
a shipping box, and I'm not sure I totally understand the science, but
the fish and water doesn't "slosh" when the bags are moved and tipped
and rolled and dropped - providing a smoother ride for the fish. The
fish has not real sense of up and down and sideways when in these
bags, thereby relieving one cause of stress. Interesting.

-- Mister Gardener
  #13  
Old March 11th 06, 05:54 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

Moments before spontaneously combusting Gill Passman at
was heard opining:

Others on this ng travel further to get their fish and some in the
States get them off the internet. So I would guess a 40 min journey
wouldn't be too bad....

=====================
Some of the stores here have oxygen tanks and fill the bag with air from
these tanks. When I buy fish in the city it can take me an hour or more to
get home in the traffic, even thought I avoid the rush-hour mess. The fish
are always fine with no gasping at the surface. But then I've had no
problems with the city shop that doesn't have oxygen tanks as well.

When I lived in NYC and went on fish trawling expeditions (pet shop hopping)
with my fish friends the fish would often be in the bags for several hours
without any problems at all. I sure miss those days........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




  #14  
Old March 11th 06, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

Moments before spontaneously combusting dc at was
heard opining:

"muddyfox" wrote in
oups.com:
They're amazingly resilient. The only time I ever find one dead is
in the rare occasion that the bag leaked and drained completely or
the fish was sealed in without any water--ya, it happens.

=======================

I've seen the bettas come in to the shops here (including Wally*World).
Most come in those clear plastic soda cups with ventilated lids. Their
water is blue. They're packed in boxes that must stay upright. If one of
these boxes falls over I believe the cups would drain and the fish would
die. I only saw bags in one store...... which I wont get into again.
:-(

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o






  #15  
Old March 12th 06, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
...
On 11 Mar 2006 02:10:00 -0800, "muddyfox"
wrote:


dc wrote:
What containers?


Each betta was sitting in about 1 inch of water in the bottom of a
plastic cup not wide enough for the betta to keep it's body straight.


Bettas usually come shipped in heat-sealed plastic bags just about
twice
the size of a dime bag, with only enough water for the fish to stay
wet and
partly submerged. This is part of the reason why Bettas can be sold
so
cheaply, they require very little water weight per fish to ship.


I think I would rather pay double and have them shipped in something
more comfortable for them, but since a lot of folk never see how
they're shipped I guess it will carry on since they don't die and it's
commercially more profitable.

I'm not agreeing with the whole thing, just saying it like it is.


Yes, I've seen the little bags too.


A article in a recent TFH or FAMA or somewhere about new breathable
plastic bags for shipping fish. The material of the bag someone allows
oxygen to pass through without letting water out. Benefits include no
air space is needed in the bag, allowing twice as many bags to fit in
a shipping box, and I'm not sure I totally understand the science, but
the fish and water doesn't "slosh" when the bags are moved and tipped
and rolled and dropped - providing a smoother ride for the fish. The
fish has not real sense of up and down and sideways when in these
bags, thereby relieving one cause of stress. Interesting.

-- Mister Gardener


I guess the larger H2O molecules don't fit through, and the CO2 and O2
molecules do (?).

Regarding Bettas, I don't know what size a dime bag is, but imports come
in a bag which is about 3-4 times the size of the fish, half filled with
water. Quite tight accommodations but their survival rate is great.
I've also received Rams and Discus in very small bags, so it isn't
limited to Bettas. While it looked improper, the number of DOAs was
almost zero. The trouble with a bag of many fish, is that if one dies,
it pollutes the bag very quickly, killing or stressing the others.

On the subject of Bettas, I'm starting a new thread, straight from
Bangkok Thailand.
--
www.NetMax.tk


  #16  
Old March 12th 06, 01:23 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

(Middle and bottom posted)

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:45:50 -0500, Mr Gardener wrote:
A article in a recent TFH or FAMA or somewhere about new breathable
plastic bags for shipping fish. The material of the bag someone allows
oxygen to pass through without letting water out. Benefits include no
air space is needed in the bag, allowing twice as many bags to fit in
a shipping box, and I'm not sure I totally understand the science, but
the fish and water doesn't "slosh" when the bags are moved and tipped
and rolled and dropped - providing a smoother ride for the fish. The
fish has not real sense of up and down and sideways when in these
bags, thereby relieving one cause of stress. Interesting.

-- Mister Gardener


On re-reading this in its final posted form, I see that Agent's spell
and grammar checker is light years behind Microsoft Office, which is
light years behind, period. Blame the spell checker, not the typist.
(Mr Gardener)

And NetMax replied:
I guess the larger H2O molecules don't fit through, and the CO2 and O2
molecules do (?).

Regarding Bettas, I don't know what size a dime bag is, but imports come
in a bag which is about 3-4 times the size of the fish, half filled with
water. Quite tight accommodations but their survival rate is great.
I've also received Rams and Discus in very small bags, so it isn't
limited to Bettas. While it looked improper, the number of DOAs was
almost zero. The trouble with a bag of many fish, is that if one dies,
it pollutes the bag very quickly, killing or stressing the others.

On the subject of Bettas, I'm starting a new thread, straight from
Bangkok Thailand.


I don't know what size a dime bag is either, nor what it is, for
certain, but from a previous life I remember quite clearly what a
nickel bag was. I can only guess that a dime bag is an inflated
version of a nickel bag.

Regarding imports and bags - I've had a run of bad luck with ancistrus
cats, bushy or bristle nosed, whatever you care to call them. I have
purchased 3 which have died about 4 days after purchase. Since my tank
is relatively new, but fully cycled, I initially blamed myself - but I
saved the corpses in a baggie and while looking at all three together,
I noticed a small, red spot on each of them. It looked like a piece of
abraded skin, and each spot was in the same place, on top of the head,
centered between the eyes. Roughly a quarter of an inch in diameter. I
called Vance, my lfs, and told him that each of my dead ancistrus had
something in common, he answered right away with "red spot on his
back?". He said he has found that problem in his last three shipments,
and after a bit of reading, I found it mentioned in a magazine.
Vance's best guess was ammonia burn from shipping. He also said he is
not going to be ordering any more ancistrus until this problem is
properly identified and remedied. I can't imaging an aquarium without
a couple of bushy noses, but I guess I will have to look around for
another glass sucking fish that stays small - a few inches tops. I
currently only have one, in an old tank, he has been there for more
than 10 years and is still quite healthy.

Can anyone shed some light on this red spot thing that's happening?

-- Mister Gardener
  #17  
Old March 13th 06, 01:34 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

"Koi-Lo" wrote in
:

I've seen the bettas come in to the shops here (including
Wally*World). Most come in those clear plastic soda cups with
ventilated lids. Their water is blue. They're packed in boxes that
must stay upright. If one of these boxes falls over I believe the
cups would drain and the fish would die. I only saw bags in one
store...... which I wont get into again.


I know the cups you are talking about. They're made by JBJ. We
occasionally order Bettas from suppliers that use these as well. They
don't drain if they fall over. They're smartly designed with that in
mind. The top has a spout (for lack of a better term) that protrudes
into the cup. If the cup falls over on its side or upside down, very
little water gets out if any at all.

Even the older cup designs that lacked the spout have very little chance
of leaking. The hole in the lid of the older cups is small enough that
it is unlikely water could escape as there is very little change of the
necessary air getting into the cup at the same time to equalize the
pressure. The cup would have to be tilted just so to allow it and then
only a small amount of water would escape before you would have to re-
adjust the tilt of the cup. You can store these cups upside down if you
want to.


  #18  
Old March 13th 06, 01:44 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

Mr. Gardener wrote in
:

A article in a recent TFH or FAMA or somewhere about new breathable
plastic bags for shipping fish. The material of the bag someone allows
oxygen to pass through without letting water out. Benefits include no
air space is needed in the bag, allowing twice as many bags to fit in



I'm curious to know more about these bags as it does NOT sound like a good
idea. It isn't lack of O2 that kills most fish locked in a bag during long
trips, it's ammonia build-up. The fact that the bag is sealed from the
ambient air allows the pH to drop to 6 or much lower. The less O ions in the
water the lower the pH will fall. A low pH means you end up with ammonium
ions instead of ammonia in the water, which are far less toxic. An
oxygenated bag makes for far more poisonous waste products.

Fish most often die after a bag is opened and the water is once again exposed
to the air, allowing O2 to dissolve and the pH to rise converting more of the
ammonium ions into much more deadly ammonia. This is one reason why marine
fish can be tricky to reacclimatize after long trips, since the water is so
high in carbonate the pH tends to rise very quickly once the water is re-
exposed to air.
  #19  
Old March 13th 06, 01:51 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

Mr. Gardener wrote in
:

nickel bag was. I can only guess that a dime bag is an inflated
version of a nickel bag.


Only the price is inflated I'm sure.


called Vance, my lfs, and told him that each of my dead ancistrus had
something in common, he answered right away with "red spot on his
back?". He said he has found that problem in his last three shipments,


I've noticed this problem too. Left untreated the ulcer will spread across
the head of the fish, killing it in a very slow and ugly manner. Basic
anti-bacteria/fungal treatments seem to make a difference, but recovery is
slow.

The problem seems to be limited to ancistrus cats. We have a huge array of
plecos in stock, both rare and common, but only the medium sized common
ancistrus appear to be affected. I've no idea what the initial cause is.
The fish do not normally arrive in water with ammonia levels that are out
of the ordinary.
  #20  
Old March 13th 06, 02:56 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
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Default Minimum Aquarium Size - EU Regulations

"dc" wrote in message
...
"Koi-Lo" wrote in
:

I've seen the bettas come in to the shops here (including
Wally*World). Most come in those clear plastic soda cups with
ventilated lids. Their water is blue. They're packed in boxes that
must stay upright. If one of these boxes falls over I believe the
cups would drain and the fish would die. I only saw bags in one
store...... which I wont get into again.


I know the cups you are talking about. They're made by JBJ. We
occasionally order Bettas from suppliers that use these as well. They
don't drain if they fall over. They're smartly designed with that in
mind. The top has a spout (for lack of a better term) that protrudes
into the cup. If the cup falls over on its side or upside down, very
little water gets out if any at all.


We used to cut those inverted spouts so that we could get a bit more
water inside the cups. Then we marked the lids with a marker, to mark
their time (arrange rotation through tanks).

Even the older cup designs that lacked the spout have very little
chance
of leaking. The hole in the lid of the older cups is small enough that
it is unlikely water could escape as there is very little change of the
necessary air getting into the cup at the same time to equalize the
pressure. The cup would have to be tilted just so to allow it and then
only a small amount of water would escape before you would have to re-
adjust the tilt of the cup. You can store these cups upside down if
you
want to.


But upside down and the fish would asphyxiate. Whenever we had school
kids go through, I would check on the Bettas to make sure they didn't
stack the JBJ cups on top of each other (blocking the fresh air).
--
www.NetMax.tk


 




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