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CO2 or not



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 21st 05, 10:31 PM
Elaine T
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Gill Passman wrote:
"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
...

My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
But
from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
the
front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
What do you all think????



CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
of what you will be doing).

The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own
eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
etc etc.

The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
slow it's global warming ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk



Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low being
just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know the
other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in the
kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.

What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget this
part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as
gardening is my other hobby....


I'd look at adding K (potash), iron, and possibly trace elements along
with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water,
and probably plenty of phosphate.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

  #12  
Old February 22nd 05, 12:24 AM
Gill Passman
external usenet poster
 
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Default


"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...
Gill Passman wrote:
"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
...

My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
But
from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
the
front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
What do you all think????


CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
of what you will be doing).

The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its

own
eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
etc etc.

The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
slow it's global warming ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk



Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low

being
just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know

the
other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in

the
kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.

What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget

this
part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as
gardening is my other hobby....


I'd look at adding K (potash), iron, and possibly trace elements along
with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water,
and probably plenty of phosphate.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__


After reading everyones suggestions I added some Nutrafin Plant Gro
tonight - it came with the tank. I already replaced most of the plants this
weekend so here's hoping. As I think we have all agreed, I don't think the
fish suffer but it isn't pretty to look at. I'll look into sourcing the
Flourish Excel.

Thanks for the advice...I'll keep you posted...



  #13  
Old February 22nd 05, 01:28 AM
NetMax
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my
tank.
But
from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel
to a
certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
the
front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
What do you all think????



CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out
of
the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the
theory
of what you will be doing).

The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works
until
the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food.
CO2
pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite
fun
to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its
own
eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants
are
also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with
cats...
etc etc.

The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters.
If
your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
slow it's global warming ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low
being
just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't
know the
other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking
in the
kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.

What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget
this
part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially
as
gardening is my other hobby....



If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
feed newborn fish ).
--
www.NetMax.tk


  #14  
Old February 22nd 05, 02:45 AM
Ozdude
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"spiral_72" wrote in message
oups.com...
Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
You obviously have something going right.

Phooey.


I am tempted to LOL! because you have no idea of the "pain" I've been
through to get to this stage. (well perhaps you do)

Honestly, it's been touch and go for a couple of months now, and it's only
this week I feel big enough to tell people about it.

The path to this current success was winding and torturous, but that said, I
read a lot, was patient and took the advice of many people in these groups.

In my case it's apparently working. ymmv.

If I can say anything about it, it is this: I am happy it's all happening at
the moment, but as things use up (nutrients in the gravel etc,) and the
small things go in and out of balance, I can't honestly say I can "brag"
like I have been of late

I am hoping the plants keep it up, and that the CO2 doesn't fail. I am
expecting a massive change in circumstances when I replace the fluoro tubes
in a few months for instance.

I have noticed different growth characteristics from the two tubes I use.
The Philips Aquarelle seems to put out a lot of light in the the red part of
the spectrum, in comparison to the Chinese plant spectrum one I have from
LFS#1 - the result is that while the fish look great, I think it's turning
leaves red. It's hard to say because for so long I went with out
fertilization other than fish food and mulm.

The greatest and most solid advice for plants in my experience seems to be -
right sized particles in the substrate, sufficient light intensity and
period (spectrum and CRI independent), macro fetilization via slow release,
micro fertilization via water column, correct plant selection for the amount
of light and nutrient and the right fish to go with all of this, and of
course a stable, reliable and non-polluting CO2 system.

It all seems daunting when you first hear of it all, but given a little time
for it to sink in, the experience of doing and the wisdom of time, it all
seems to come together. BTW, your tanks look just fine to me - there don't
appear to be any massive outages with your stuff either, so I'd say you've
got envious systems too They are just different.

There is also another issue which I don't think a lot of us realise: the
geographical location of tanks - mine are located in a sub-tropical part of
the southern hemisphere (East coast of Australia) and it's quite warm in the
day time here atm. I don't have such a battle on my hands to raise water
temperature as my northern cousins do. Neither is the water quality so bad I
have to play with it. I am lucky living in this lucky land to be honest with
you.

Any way, enough ranting, all I have to really say is application and
patience will get you pearling, growing and oggling

Best Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


  #15  
Old February 22nd 05, 02:56 AM
Ozdude
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one
small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it
all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think giving
the other two bits a good clean up would be?


Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same thing
again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.

What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass resin.
Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass resin - a piece
that will stay down on it's own. I can also get "artistic" with the paint
and have any wood finish I like this way I am thinking this from a
maintinence point of view - so that it can be easily scrubbed and cleaned.

It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately, by
simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose faults as
they happen.

Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
artificial is the way to go in this instance

It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all through my
photos when it's happened

Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....


They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


  #16  
Old February 22nd 05, 02:59 AM
Ozdude
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NetMax" wrote in message
. ..
If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a variety
of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational problem.
It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something to nibble
on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which feed
newborn fish ).


Agreed. My view on green algae is that some is okay for the reasons cited
above.

It does look good and it's actually a sign of a healthy biotope as well.

If it gets out of control though it's almost a nightmare from hell

It's all about balance ulimately.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


  #17  
Old February 22nd 05, 05:00 AM
Robert Flory
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ozdude" wrote in message
u...
Instead of a single 2L bottle - use two 1.25L bottles on a T-Connector.
Each bottle has 1 cup of sugar, 1/2 tsp of yeast and 1/2 tsp of baking
soda. The bottles can be cycled in a smaller tank this way, without huge
pH/carbonic acid swings and you ultimately would have more control over
the mixtures and the CO2 system as a whole.

Oz

If they are available, try what I use plastic .... 1-gallon US juice jugs,
they run for weeks. The cat can't tip them over.

Bob


  #18  
Old February 22nd 05, 08:29 PM
Gill Passman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NetMax" wrote in message
. ..
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my
tank.
But
from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel
to a
certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
the
front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
What do you all think????


CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out
of
the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the
theory
of what you will be doing).

The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works
until
the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food.
CO2
pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite
fun
to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its
own
eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants
are
also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with
cats...
etc etc.

The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters.
If
your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
slow it's global warming ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low
being
just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't
know the
other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking
in the
kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.

What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget
this
part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially
as
gardening is my other hobby....



If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
feed newborn fish ).
--
www.NetMax.tk


So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with
this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll
have to move something anyway to get them in.

The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae
itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the tank
balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if these
fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae and
ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be appreciating
the additional open space.

Gill


  #19  
Old February 22nd 05, 08:31 PM
Gill Passman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and

one
small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing

it
all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think

giving
the other two bits a good clean up would be?


Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same

thing
again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.

What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass resin.
Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass resin - a

piece
that will stay down on it's own. I can also get "artistic" with the paint
and have any wood finish I like this way I am thinking this from a
maintinence point of view - so that it can be easily scrubbed and cleaned.

It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately, by
simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose faults

as
they happen.

Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
artificial is the way to go in this instance

It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all through

my
photos when it's happened

Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....


They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


BTW I love what you've done with the styro backing.....just wish I had the
artistic ability to do similar for my new Malawi tank - been looking for
something like that for weeks but couldn't find anything local...


  #20  
Old February 22nd 05, 08:47 PM
Nikki Casali
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Gill Passman wrote:
"NetMax" wrote in message
If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
feed newborn fish ).
--
www.NetMax.tk



So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with
this.


I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your
tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple
bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2
and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful.

What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll
have to move something anyway to get them in.


But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which
the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae
eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.

I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.

Nikki

 




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