A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Alfa Romeo
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Tyres: Best foot forward? or back?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old August 13th 04, 07:16 AM
Buzzardous Cross
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Alfistagj" > wrote in message news:<TkQSc.5453$vH5.329@amstwist00>...
> Reading all the posts back (including my own): Isn't the best way out of
> this discussion to just see to it that all 4 tyres are 100% o.k. (that's
> over 4mm profile depth)


Yes, that's kinda clear. If you can, have the best everywhere...but in
practice you know how it goes...
Spend good dosh on a set of 4 new tyres.
Then the front ones go real fast
Then you pick up a nail on the sidewall on one of the fronts.
Then you go, "Phew, at least the were almost gone".
Then you decide to buy 2 new tyres (cause the rears are still pretty
good)

Now you scratch your head wondering, do these go front or rear?!!

The problem is compounded by the fact that I find tyre rotation a
pain...especially in a car as sensitive as an Alfa...a seemingly
innocent rotation to achieve uniform wear can unsettle the car's great
handling and have you go round in circles wondering what's caused
it...
So now I don't rotate anymore...

Guess the solution is more dosh (4 new tyres) or live with a
compromise! Ouch.

BC
Ads
  #12  
Old August 14th 04, 08:04 PM
Thomas Strandtoft
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Buzzardous Cross wrote:

> a. in daily driving, your need for traction/grip is greatest when you
> have to slam your brakes in an emergency - and that requires most grip
> in the front...otherwise you'll have less braking force before your
> ABS kicks in


Try thinking this way:

The lesser grip, the sooner the wheel will lose traction and lock
up if you apply the brake (forget about ABS for the moment*). You,
being an Alfa driver, I feel confident that you have more than
once tried braking late and having the front wheels locks. It
squeels a bit, but no major panic as the car continues to drive
straight and as soon as the wheels start turning again you can
continue steering.. On the other hand, if you jam on the handbrake
and lock the rear wheels, the car will start spinning and you will
have your hands full trying to counter the movement..

Since a front wheel lock up is way easier to control than a rear
wheel lock up, you should always make sure that the front wheels
lock before the rear wheels let go. Actually all cars are fitted
with a system that reduces the brake pressure to the rear wheels
for exactly that reason. This also means that you should always
fit the best tires to the rear wheels, to assure that they are the
last to lose grip..

* How about the ABS then, a modern car doesn't lock any wheels?
Well, true on the braking part, but when turning, the ABS doesn't
help you if the rear end breaks and it will break very fast if the
rear wheels lack decent rubber..

> b. it's harder to correct a front wheel skid than a rear wheel skid =>


You are wrong on that. Even if you, as I, like oversteering better
than understeering, slobby tyres on the rear wheels give you crash
oversteering and a very fine and razorsharp edge..


--
Hygge..
Thomas

<http://www.carftp.com> - a library of car videos.
  #13  
Old August 14th 04, 08:51 PM
Catman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thomas Strandtoft wrote:

> Buzzardous Cross wrote:
>
>> a. in daily driving, your need for traction/grip is greatest when you
>> have to slam your brakes in an emergency - and that requires most grip
>> in the front...otherwise you'll have less braking force before your
>> ABS kicks in

>
> Try thinking this way:
>
> The lesser grip, the sooner the wheel will lose traction and lock
> up if you apply the brake (forget about ABS for the moment*). You,
> being an Alfa driver, I feel confident that you have more than
> once tried braking late and having the front wheels locks. It
> squeels a bit, but no major panic as the car continues to drive
> straight and as soon as the wheels start turning again you can
> continue steering.. On the other hand, if you jam on the handbrake
> and lock the rear wheels, the car will start spinning and you will
> have your hands full trying to counter the movement..


I remember the first time I tried that. In a straight line, they just lock
up, and you carry on in a straight line. Of course, this all changes if
you do it while turning, which is fun in an empty car park on snow

However, in real world situations I do agree that oversteer from front
wheels loosing traction is much easier to control than the rear breaking
away. Why that is, I wouldn't like to say, but it's my experience, such as
it is.

> Since a front wheel lock up is way easier to control than a rear
> wheel lock up, you should always make sure that the front wheels
> lock before the rear wheels let go. Actually all cars are fitted
> with a system that reduces the brake pressure to the rear wheels
> for exactly that reason.


Not sure about that, old chap. I understood that the reason that front
brakes are more powerful than rears was simply because when you brake, the
weight of your vehicle shifts forwards, reducing the donwforce on the rear
wheels. You learn about this in a hurry when biking.

There is simply no point in having more powerful brakes on the rear since
they will always lock before the fronts (in a straight line of course)

However, I may have misunderstood / not explained very well. But I do have
an excuse for the latter: It's my birthday and I'm rather well down this
rather good bottle of wine


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
  #14  
Old August 15th 04, 12:03 PM
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:54:27 +0100, Tom Boltwood >
wrote:

<Snip>
>For me, the
>understeer on the front with bad tyres makes driving more difficult and
>dangerous.


Understeer? What's that then? Bad tyres on an Alfa is a
waste..surely?!

> Also, if the front wheels are the only wheels you have control
>over,


Hmmm..bad tyres are bad no matter where you put them.

I seem to be able to control quite a bit of my car via my rear tyres.
There's always the handbrake (rarely used and unsubtle) or,
particularly in cornering, you can use the accelerator and brakes to
alter the balance of the car by 'moving the weight' on the back so
discouraging or encouraging the rear to drift, or for that matter the
front.

> I'd rather the grip was on them.


!

>It seems to be something people are fairly divided on, although most agree
>with the 'correct' theory which is good tyres on the back. I, however,
>disagree.


I'm with the majority on this one. Of utmost importance when driving a
road car on the road is safety and predictability. In a disaster, when
you've (temporarily?) lost control, there can be nobody out there that
seriously suggests that Joe Average has a car setup that oversteers
rather than understeers! Most typical drivers cannot correct oversteer
properly..most typical drivers are 'used' to understeer however. The
link between over and under steer and tyres is well explained
elsewhere.

Car control experts may choose an alternate setup to the majority
opinion but it is for the few not the many.

YMMV

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #15  
Old August 16th 04, 01:13 AM
Gareth Tuckwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the front
wheels!!


"Zathras" > wrote in message
news
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:54:27 +0100, Tom Boltwood >
> wrote:
>
> <Snip>
> >For me, the
> >understeer on the front with bad tyres makes driving more difficult and
> >dangerous.

>
> Understeer? What's that then? Bad tyres on an Alfa is a
> waste..surely?!
>
> > Also, if the front wheels are the only wheels you have control
> >over,

>
> Hmmm..bad tyres are bad no matter where you put them.
>
> I seem to be able to control quite a bit of my car via my rear tyres.
> There's always the handbrake (rarely used and unsubtle) or,
> particularly in cornering, you can use the accelerator and brakes to
> alter the balance of the car by 'moving the weight' on the back so
> discouraging or encouraging the rear to drift, or for that matter the
> front.
>
> > I'd rather the grip was on them.

>
> !
>
> >It seems to be something people are fairly divided on, although most

agree
> >with the 'correct' theory which is good tyres on the back. I, however,
> >disagree.

>
> I'm with the majority on this one. Of utmost importance when driving a
> road car on the road is safety and predictability. In a disaster, when
> you've (temporarily?) lost control, there can be nobody out there that
> seriously suggests that Joe Average has a car setup that oversteers
> rather than understeers! Most typical drivers cannot correct oversteer
> properly..most typical drivers are 'used' to understeer however. The
> link between over and under steer and tyres is well explained
> elsewhere.
>
> Car control experts may choose an alternate setup to the majority
> opinion but it is for the few not the many.
>
> YMMV
>
> --
> Z
> Scotland
> Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
> 'Oil' be seeing you..
> (Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)



  #16  
Old August 16th 04, 06:24 PM
Alfistagj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
...
> Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the front
> wheels!!
>


Gareth,
Never sell your 156.
It's unique and will make a lot of money!
You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of!
--
Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)



  #17  
Old August 18th 04, 10:49 AM
Gareth Tuckwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) - as
far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a
2002+ thing?

I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best mix
I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed at
all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil pressure
low or handbrake on"

The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels.

These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this brake
system.


"Alfistagj" > wrote in message
news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00...
>
> "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the

front
> > wheels!!
> >

>
> Gareth,
> Never sell your 156.
> It's unique and will make a lot of money!
> You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of!
> --
> Ciao from Holland
> AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
>
>
>



  #18  
Old August 18th 04, 04:44 PM
Alfistagj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gareth,
Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE
REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-)
Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK
Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!!
The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a
"pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol
indicates worn (front only) brake pads.
Has nothing to do with front or rear.
If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages
under the "brake specifications".
--
Ciao from Holland
AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)



"Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
...
> I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning to!) -

as
> far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps a
> 2002+ thing?
>
> I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best

mix
> I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed

at
> all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil

pressure
> low or handbrake on"
>
> The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front wheels.
>
> These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this

brake
> system.
>
>
> "Alfistagj" > wrote in message
> news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00...
> >
> > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> > ...
> > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the

> front
> > > wheels!!
> > >

> >
> > Gareth,
> > Never sell your 156.
> > It's unique and will make a lot of money!
> > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of!
> > --
> > Ciao from Holland
> > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
> >
> >
> >

>
>



  #19  
Old August 18th 04, 08:35 PM
Gareth Tuckwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don't need to check the manual - just pull the handbrake on in gravel -
front wheels lock, rear wheels don't.

You are correct lever positioning tho!


"Alfistagj" > wrote in message
news:4QKUc.5968$vH5.5434@amstwist00...
> Gareth,
> Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE
> REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-)
> Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK
> Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!!
> The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a
> "pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol
> indicates worn (front only) brake pads.
> Has nothing to do with front or rear.
> If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages
> under the "brake specifications".
> --
> Ciao from Holland
> AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
>
>
>
> "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning

to!) -
> as
> > far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps

a
> > 2002+ thing?
> >
> > I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best

> mix
> > I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed

> at
> > all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil

> pressure
> > low or handbrake on"
> >
> > The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front

wheels.
> >
> > These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this

> brake
> > system.
> >
> >
> > "Alfistagj" > wrote in

message
> > news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00...
> > >
> > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> > > ...
> > > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the

> > front
> > > > wheels!!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Gareth,
> > > Never sell your 156.
> > > It's unique and will make a lot of money!
> > > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of!
> > > --
> > > Ciao from Holland
> > > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> > > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> > > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>



  #20  
Old August 18th 04, 08:52 PM
Gareth Tuckwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I must apologise to you - the manual definitely says the handbrake applies
to the rear wheels. However, I know mine applies to the front wheels...

I thought it was strange when I bought the car, but I was not too surprised
because the Citroen Xantia has the same setup, so I thought nothing more of
it. I mentioned it to a mechanic friend of mine and he was surprised, but
confirmed that the handbrake is acting on the front wheels. He told me about
another unusual braking system that Alfa tried a number of years ago -
forgive me if I get this wrong, but I believe they tried a braking system
acting directly on the drive shaft, or was it the axel, I forget (I am not
very mechanically minded!), but it wasn't on the wheels!

The reason I noticed the anomoly with my car was when I parked my car on a
friends driveway (slight slope), then came out later to find my car had run
down the drive onto the flat area of the road - front brake discs heat up
when driving, I apply the handbrake, then discs cool down, contract and come
away from the wheels. No damage was done, but I always park in gear now!!

I will enquire about this at the garage, the next time I am in - I had never
read that section of the manual before, but the handbrake works OK (except
when I don't apply it hard enough).

I'll post something about this in a couple of months, when the car gets
serviced.



"Alfistagj" > wrote in message
news:4QKUc.5968$vH5.5434@amstwist00...
> Gareth,
> Don't mean to offend you, but ALL 147/156/166 HAVE THE HAND BRAKE ON THE
> REAR operated with a lever between the FRONT seats ;-)
> Don't tell me you are "contaminated" with German arrogance believing UK
> Alfa's are specially made with front wheel hand brakes for the UK market!!
> The warning light is a combined one for low brake fluid level as well as a
> "pulled" hand brake. Another warning light with almost the same symbol
> indicates worn (front only) brake pads.
> Has nothing to do with front or rear.
> If you have an official owners manual, just look at one of the last pages
> under the "brake specifications".
> --
> Ciao from Holland
> AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
>
>
>
> "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> ...
> > I don't think it will make much money when I sell it (not planning

to!) -
> as
> > far as I know, they all work this way! Maybe its a UK thing, or perhaps

a
> > 2002+ thing?
> >
> > I have the 2002 156 2.0JTS. Its the old exterior and new interior (best

> mix
> > I think) if that helps. Also when you pull on the handbrake at any speed

> at
> > all (even a crawl) the on-board computer beeps loudly and says "oil

> pressure
> > low or handbrake on"
> >
> > The handbrake on my father's Citroen Xantia also acts on the front

wheels.
> >
> > These are the only two models of car I have ever encountered with this

> brake
> > system.
> >
> >
> > "Alfistagj" > wrote in

message
> > news:K56Uc.5781$vH5.4189@amstwist00...
> > >
> > > "Gareth Tuckwell" > schreef in bericht
> > > ...
> > > > Don't want to be using the handbrake on my 2002 156 - it acts on the

> > front
> > > > wheels!!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Gareth,
> > > Never sell your 156.
> > > It's unique and will make a lot of money!
> > > You're the only front hand brake 156 I know of!
> > > --
> > > Ciao from Holland
> > > AlfistaGJ (Gert-Jan)
> > > Alfa red 156 SW 1.8 Madeno tuned (2000)
> > > Golden Montreal 1428700 (1973/4)
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
>



 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Problem: 146 Ti holds back..!? Stephan Alfa Romeo 3 July 22nd 04 08:38 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.