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Hybrid car cost of ownership



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 5th 05, 05:26 PM
Tom Del Rosso
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Default Hybrid car cost of ownership

Besides higher mileage I suspect there must be hidden costs or else there
would be hybrids on dealers' floors. Is there a significant cost due to
replacing batteries or something? Or are they just not ready for primetime?


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  #2  
Old March 5th 05, 07:29 PM
y_p_w
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Tom Del Rosso wrote:

> Besides higher mileage I suspect there must be hidden costs or else there
> would be hybrids on dealers' floors. Is there a significant cost due to
> replacing batteries or something? Or are they just not ready for primetime?


The cost of batteries is unclear. The cost of NiMH rechargeable
batteries is going down, so the replacement costs could be lower
in the future. Right now they're for the early adopters. I
wouldn't say "not ready for primetime" but rather "a work in
progress". They seem to be fine vehicles, but the cost of
ownership is high compared to comparable size/performance gasoline
powered cars. You've got to really want one.

Certainly many of the electrics in recent years were sold at a net
loss. Remember the GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 Electric, or the Honda EV
Plus? GM claimed there was no demand for the EV1 (a lie). The
real reason was because it was costing them $80,000 each to make
them

It's believed that the Toyota Prius is turning a profit now.
  #3  
Old March 5th 05, 07:39 PM
B. Peg
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Mostly because American buyers want large vehicles (fat people can't fit
well in small cars, ya know) and to haul large (take it anyway you want)
families around. If they made a hybrid SUV, then they will come - and kick
the price of gas to $4-5 gallon too.
Look at all the large vehicles sitting in used car lots, some '04 models
even. I think the hybrid trend is coming later this summer, but the true
cost of ownership (ergo, the $$$$ battery) remains to be seen. If
Kalifornya goes to a mileage-based tax system at the pump there won't be
much incentive either.

B~

"Tom Del Rosso" > wrote in message
...
> Besides higher mileage I suspect there must be hidden costs or else there
> would be hybrids on dealers' floors. Is there a significant cost due to
> replacing batteries or something? Or are they just not ready for
> primetime?
>
>
> --
>
> Reply in group, but if emailing add
> 2 more zeros and remove the obvious.
>
>



  #4  
Old March 5th 05, 08:08 PM
Tom Del Rosso
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Default

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Certainly many of the electrics in recent years were sold at a net
> loss. Remember the GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 Electric, or the Honda EV
> Plus? GM claimed there was no demand for the EV1 (a lie). The
> real reason was because it was costing them $80,000 each to make
> them
>
> It's believed that the Toyota Prius is turning a profit now.


Thanks, but it sounds like there was no lie, since there really was no
demand at the real price.

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  #5  
Old March 5th 05, 08:08 PM
JazzMan
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Default

y_p_w wrote:

>
> Certainly many of the electrics in recent years were sold at a net
> loss. Remember the GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 Electric, or the Honda EV
> Plus? GM claimed there was no demand for the EV1 (a lie). The
> real reason was because it was costing them $80,000 each to make
> them
>


The EV-1 was never intended to be sold to consumers. That
vehicle was only available under a lease program, GM used
that lease program to do long-term testing of electric
vehicle technology. It was a sad day indeed when the program
was terminated at the end of it's run and the cars were all
taken back. Every single lesee really liked the car and it
worked well for them. If it had been available in my area
I would have leased one in a heartbeat. The volatility and
the gaming going on in the gasoline industry is really
hurting people now, having an all-electric car would allow
someone who truly wanted to to step out of the game altogether.

BTW, the reason for the high production costs of the EV-1 was
because every one was a hand-built and hand-assembled car. If
GM had set up their usual mass-production assembly line for
the EV-1 it likely would sell for less than what a mid-level
SUV sells for now. Fundamentally, the only really expensive
part was the motor and the battery pack, but don't forget that
those costs were offset by elimination of expensive to design
and build transmission systems and complex emissions control
systems on gas engines. No fuel injectors, no catalyst, no
smog pumps or EGR systems, no exhaust system at all for that
matter, no fuel systems, no evaporative vapor recovery system,
no clutch system, no tranny cooler, no radiator, no antifreeze,
I could go on and on. Ultimately I would see an all-electric
direct-drive car being cheaper to make than a regular petro-fuel
vehicle.

Another plus of an all-E car is that it can use better
electrical sources, including reforming fuel cell technology,
and renewable non-carbon energy sources.


JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********
  #6  
Old March 5th 05, 08:23 PM
Tom Del Rosso
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"B. Peg" > wrote in message
...
> Mostly because American buyers want large vehicles (fat people can't fit
> well in small cars, ya know)


I'm not fat, but I have found this is also true of tall people and people
with elbows.


> and to haul large (take it anyway you want)
> families around. If they made a hybrid SUV, then they will come - and

kick
> the price of gas to $4-5 gallon too.


I don't follow. It would raise the price if demand lowered?


> Look at all the large vehicles sitting in used car lots, some '04 models
> even. I think the hybrid trend is coming later this summer, but the true
> cost of ownership (ergo, the $$$$ battery) remains to be seen. If
> Kalifornya goes to a mileage-based tax system at the pump there won't be
> much incentive either.


Is their plan to tax gas more if the vehicle has high mileage??? That seems
backwards even for them.


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  #7  
Old March 5th 05, 08:38 PM
Bob Paulin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



JazzMan > wrote in article
>...
> y_p_w wrote:
>
> >
> > Certainly many of the electrics in recent years were sold at a net
> > loss. Remember the GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 Electric, or the Honda EV
> > Plus? GM claimed there was no demand for the EV1 (a lie). The
> > real reason was because it was costing them $80,000 each to make
> > them
> >

>
> The EV-1 was never intended to be sold to consumers. That
> vehicle was only available under a lease program, GM used
> that lease program to do long-term testing of electric
> vehicle technology. It was a sad day indeed when the program
> was terminated at the end of it's run and the cars were all
> taken back. Every single lesee really liked the car and it
> worked well for them. If it had been available in my area
> I would have leased one in a heartbeat. The volatility and
> the gaming going on in the gasoline industry is really
> hurting people now, having an all-electric car would allow
> someone who truly wanted to to step out of the game altogether.
>
> BTW, the reason for the high production costs of the EV-1 was
> because every one was a hand-built and hand-assembled car. If
> GM had set up their usual mass-production assembly line for
> the EV-1 it likely would sell for less than what a mid-level
> SUV sells for now. Fundamentally, the only really expensive
> part was the motor and the battery pack, but don't forget that
> those costs were offset by elimination of expensive to design
> and build transmission systems and complex emissions control
> systems on gas engines. No fuel injectors, no catalyst, no
> smog pumps or EGR systems, no exhaust system at all for that
> matter, no fuel systems, no evaporative vapor recovery system,
> no clutch system, no tranny cooler, no radiator, no antifreeze,
> I could go on and on. Ultimately I would see an all-electric
> direct-drive car being cheaper to make than a regular petro-fuel
> vehicle.
>
> Another plus of an all-E car is that it can use better
> electrical sources, including reforming fuel cell technology,
> and renewable non-carbon energy sources.
>
>
> JazzMan
> --


Of course. now that it has been established that hybrids will use less fuel
- thus pay fewer fuel/road taxes - Big Brother has proposed that ALL cars
be equipped with spyware - er, monitoring devices - which will determine
how many miles have been driven in order to tax the car owner by-the-mile.

Of course, "absolutely nothing else" would ever be monitored - such as
speeds driven, locations driven to, etc., etc......

One has to wonder why the government is so enthuisiastic about hybrids.
When was the last time YOU heard ANY politician praise a program which will
result in fewer taxes collected?

Could such monitoring of the general population be but a single reason?


  #8  
Old March 5th 05, 08:58 PM
Lawrence Glickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:26:32 GMT, "Tom Del Rosso"
> wrote:

>Besides higher mileage I suspect there must be hidden costs or else there
>would be hybrids on dealers' floors. Is there a significant cost due to
>replacing batteries or something? Or are they just not ready for primetime?


From what I've seen, not ready for Prime Time.
Know of one lady, battery died after trip up from Kentucky. $150
minimum to service, and possibly not under warranty.

Also saw one of these going down the highway. Bouncing around like a
sardine can in a hurricane. While my 3,800 lb car never moved, except
forward.

My own opinion is a Hybrid is a motorcycle with a passenger
compartment built over it.

Lg

  #9  
Old March 5th 05, 09:16 PM
JazzMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bob Paulin wrote:

> Of course. now that it has been established that hybrids will use less fuel
> - thus pay fewer fuel/road taxes - Big Brother has proposed that ALL cars
> be equipped with spyware - er, monitoring devices - which will determine
> how many miles have been driven in order to tax the car owner by-the-mile.
>
> Of course, "absolutely nothing else" would ever be monitored - such as
> speeds driven, locations driven to, etc., etc......
>
> One has to wonder why the government is so enthuisiastic about hybrids.
> When was the last time YOU heard ANY politician praise a program which will
> result in fewer taxes collected?
>
> Could such monitoring of the general population be but a single reason?



What's really funny is that because the CAFE standards have
been frozen at 1980's levels and with the burgeoning sales
of gas-sucking SUVs the actual amount of taxes being collected
per vehicle mile are higher now than they ever have been. So,
where's all the extra money going? It's being siphoned off to
pay for invasions of other countries and trying to make up
the shortfalls caused by the massive tax cuts awarded the
wealthiest people in the country. Follow the money, that's
the key, and the money goes to the hydrocarbon fuels industry.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********
  #10  
Old March 5th 05, 11:03 PM
Steve W.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"JazzMan" > wrote in message
...
> y_p_w wrote:
>
> >
> > Certainly many of the electrics in recent years were sold at a net
> > loss. Remember the GM EV1, Toyota RAV4 Electric, or the Honda EV
> > Plus? GM claimed there was no demand for the EV1 (a lie). The
> > real reason was because it was costing them $80,000 each to make
> > them
> >

>
> The EV-1 was never intended to be sold to consumers. That
> vehicle was only available under a lease program, GM used
> that lease program to do long-term testing of electric
> vehicle technology. It was a sad day indeed when the program
> was terminated at the end of it's run and the cars were all
> taken back. Every single lesee really liked the car and it
> worked well for them. If it had been available in my area
> I would have leased one in a heartbeat. The volatility and
> the gaming going on in the gasoline industry is really
> hurting people now, having an all-electric car would allow
> someone who truly wanted to to step out of the game altogether.
>
> BTW, the reason for the high production costs of the EV-1 was
> because every one was a hand-built and hand-assembled car. If
> GM had set up their usual mass-production assembly line for
> the EV-1 it likely would sell for less than what a mid-level
> SUV sells for now. Fundamentally, the only really expensive
> part was the motor and the battery pack, but don't forget that
> those costs were offset by elimination of expensive to design
> and build transmission systems and complex emissions control
> systems on gas engines. No fuel injectors, no catalyst, no
> smog pumps or EGR systems, no exhaust system at all for that
> matter, no fuel systems, no evaporative vapor recovery system,
> no clutch system, no tranny cooler, no radiator, no antifreeze,
> I could go on and on. Ultimately I would see an all-electric
> direct-drive car being cheaper to make than a regular petro-fuel
> vehicle.
>
> Another plus of an all-E car is that it can use better
> electrical sources, including reforming fuel cell technology,
> and renewable non-carbon energy sources.
>
>
> JazzMan
> --

I love folks who preach how great electric cars are. They never take
into account that generating the power to charge that vehicle is doing
more damage than running an auto. It also seems to escape their notice
that electrics are only useful in large cities since they have such
terrible range they are impractical in the rest of the country. The only
real non good source for electrical power on a long term scale is
nuclear and the green folks scream when they hear that. But it's a fact.
No other power source is even close.
As for fuel cells they are a joke. Current cells fail in less than 10K
and are dependent on natural gas to produce the energy. Add in the fact
that they are an energy losing item as well and you see why they are not
really big sellers.



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