A Restatment of the obvious Small cars are more dangerous: Newinsurance study proves you're safer in a bigger car and reveals which vehicleshave the highest injury rates

On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:

> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
> outside town with hideous light pollution.

This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
the rest of the world.

On Sep 25, 10:04*am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>
> > Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
> > the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
> > outside town with hideous light pollution.
>
> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
> the rest of the world.

False premise; single cause fallacy.
-----

- gpsman

On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>>
>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>>
>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
>> the rest of the world.
>
> False premise;

Please provide evidence that the premise is false.

> single cause fallacy.

What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?

On Sep 25, 11:04*am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
>
> > On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> >> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>
> >>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
> >>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
> >>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>
> >> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
> >> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
> >> the rest of the world.
>
> > False premise;
>
> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.

It is a single cause fallacy, genius.

> > single cause fallacy.
>
> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?

Nice move of the goalpost.

Petitio principii.
-----

- gpsman

On 9/25/2012 11:43 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On Sep 25, 11:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>>
>>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>>
>>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
>>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
>>>> the rest of the world.
>>
>>> False premise;
>>
>> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> It is a single cause fallacy, genius.

Stating that an argument is fallacious does not necessarily mean that
all or any of the premises are false. So rather than evading my
question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.

>> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?
>
> Nice move of the goalpost.

Your assertion is that the argument I made is invalid because it's a
"single cause fallacy". If my argument was indeed fallacious in that
aspect, then it should certainly be easy to point out other causes of
"weak and badly aimed" headlamps that would support your assertion. The
goal-posts were placed in the post I originally responded to and haven't
been moved since.

On Sep 26, 12:48*am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> On 9/25/2012 11:43 AM, gpsman wrote:
> > On Sep 25, 11:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> >> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
> >>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> >>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>
> >>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
> >>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
> >>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>
> >>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
> >>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
> >>>> the rest of the world.
>
> >>> False premise;
>
> >> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> > It is a single cause fallacy, genius.
>
> Stating that an argument is fallacious does not necessarily mean that
> all or any of the premises are false.

In this case, it does. There are many factors that are equally
likely, including suboptimal sign placement and speed in excess of
sight distance.

> So rather than evading my
> question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.

There is no discernible difference in the manners of operation of
motorists daylight v. dark.

> >> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?
>
> > Nice move of the goalpost.
>
> Your assertion is that the argument I made is invalid because it's a
> "single cause fallacy". *If my argument was indeed fallacious in that
> aspect, then it should certainly be easy to point out other causes of
> "weak and badly aimed" headlamps that would support your assertion. *The
> goal-posts were placed in the post I originally responded to and haven't
> been moved since.

Duh. The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
subjective.

What evidence can you provide to support your assertion...?
-----

- gpsman

On 9/26/2012 8:05 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On Sep 26, 12:48 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>> On 9/25/2012 11:43 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>> On Sep 25, 11:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>>>>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>>>>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>>
>>>>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
>>>>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
>>>>>> the rest of the world.
>>
>>>>> False premise;
>>
>>>> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>>
>>> It is a single cause fallacy, genius.
>>
>> Stating that an argument is fallacious does not necessarily mean that
>> all or any of the premises are false.
>
> In this case, it does. There are many factors that are equally
> likely, including suboptimal sign placement and speed in excess of
> sight distance.
>
>> So rather than evading my
>> question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> There is no discernible difference in the manners of operation of
> motorists daylight v. dark.
>
>>>> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?
>>
>>> Nice move of the goalpost.
>>
>> Your assertion is that the argument I made is invalid because it's a
>> "single cause fallacy". If my argument was indeed fallacious in that
>> aspect, then it should certainly be easy to point out other causes of
>> "weak and badly aimed" headlamps that would support your assertion. The
>> goal-posts were placed in the post I originally responded to and haven't
>> been moved since.
>
> Duh. The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
> subjective.

Not really. When New Jersey mandated vehicle inspections, headlights
were measured for aim and intensity.

On Sep 26, 6:11*pm, Sancho Panza > wrote:
> On 9/26/2012 8:05 AM, gpsman wrote:
> >>>> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
> >>>>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
> >>>>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
> >>>>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>
> >>>>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
> >>>>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
> >>>>>> the rest of the world.

>
> > Duh. *The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
> > subjective.
>
> Not really. When New Jersey mandated vehicle inspections, headlights
> were measured for aim and intensity.

I guess you didn't bother to read the entire post before responding.
-----

- gpsman

On 09/26/2012 08:05 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On Sep 26, 12:48 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>> On 9/25/2012 11:43 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>> On Sep 25, 11:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>>>>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>>>>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>>
>>>>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
>>>>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
>>>>>> the rest of the world.
>>
>>>>> False premise;
>>
>>>> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>>
>>> It is a single cause fallacy, genius.
>>
>> Stating that an argument is fallacious does not necessarily mean that
>> all or any of the premises are false.
>
> In this case, it does. There are many factors that are equally
> likely, including suboptimal sign placement and speed in excess of
> sight distance.
>

Due to unreasonable speed, or headlamps incapable of providing an
acceptable sight distance at a reasonable speed? The latter is sadly
common in my experience.

I've actually upgraded the headlamps on all the vehicles that I've owned
that I could, save for two ('02 VW and '09 BMW) that actually had decent
headlamps out of the box. In many cases ditching the stock headlamps
for Euro equivalents provided a noticeable improvement in seeing after
dark, despite the bleating of NHTSA that they don't provide enough
uplight to illuminate unlighted overhead signs when on low beam (a
vanishingly rare phenomenon anyway, IME) In two vehicles I've gone
full-boat upgrade - a 12AWG relay harness combined with Cibie H4s - with
excellent results. Aimed properly, they are LESS offensive to oncoming
traffic on low beam than sealed beams, yet provide vastly improved
vision on both low and high beam - even with ECE-compliant 55/60W bulbs.
If you want to bend the rules even more you can end up with fantastic
lighting that is even better than late model HIDs.

NHTSA isn't really interested in improving lighting standards it would
seem, as they not only stick to their obsolete, unique beam-pattern and
do not accept ECE beam patterns, but also fail to require self-levelers
on bright HID lights like ECE does (thankfully, at least BMW still
provides same.)

>> So rather than evading my
>> question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> There is no discernible difference in the manners of operation of
> motorists daylight v. dark.
>
>>>> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlamps?
>>
>>> Nice move of the goalpost.
>>
>> Your assertion is that the argument I made is invalid because it's a
>> "single cause fallacy". If my argument was indeed fallacious in that
>> aspect, then it should certainly be easy to point out other causes of
>> "weak and badly aimed" headlamps that would support your assertion. The
>> goal-posts were placed in the post I originally responded to and haven't
>> been moved since.
>
> Duh. The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
> subjective.
>
> What evidence can you provide to support your assertion...?

There's plenty of discussion out there, including in this very
newsgroup, before it turned into a cesspool and troll-fest.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 9/26/2012 8:05 AM, gpsman wrote:
> On Sep 26, 12:48 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>> On 9/25/2012 11:43 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>> On Sep 25, 11:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>> On 9/25/2012 10:57 AM, gpsman wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 25, 10:04 am, Arif Khokar > wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/21/2012 6:31 AM, lil Abner wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Headlights so weak and badly aimed that you have to use a flashlight out
>>>>>>> the window to seee road signs and intersections in the dark country
>>>>>>> outside town with hideous light pollution.
>>
>>>>>> This has been a problem for decades due to the NHTSA insistence on
>>>>>> having a separate headlamp beam pattern standard versus what's used in
>>>>>> the rest of the world.
>>
>>>>> False premise;
>>
>>>> Please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>>
>>> It is a single cause fallacy, genius.
>>
>> Stating that an argument is fallacious does not necessarily mean that
>> all or any of the premises are false.
>
> In this case, it does. There are many factors that are equally
> likely, including suboptimal sign placement and speed in excess of
> sight distance.

Sign placement is also standardized (at least on major roads). The OP
wasn't referring to a particular sign or set of signs, leading me to
believe that he was referring to signs in general. Also, very few
people will try to drive faster if they're trying to read signs that are
difficult to read.

>
>> So rather than evading my
>> question, please provide evidence that the premise is false.
>
> There is no discernible difference in the manners of operation of
> motorists daylight v. dark.

Cite?
>
>>>> What other causes are there of "weak and badly aimed" headlaSingl mps?
>>
>>> Nice move of the goalpost.
>>
>> Your assertion is that the argument I made is invalid because it's a
>> "single cause fallacy". If my argument was indeed fallacious in that
>> aspect, then it should certainly be easy to point out other causes of
>> "weak and badly aimed" headlamps that would support your assertion. The
>> goal-posts were placed in the post I originally responded to and haven't
>> been moved since.
>
> Duh. The perception headlamps are "weak and poorly aimed" is
> subjective.

The fact that the OP stated that he was having reading road signs at
night indicates that there's an objective, not subjective, problem.
I've driven vehicles with poor headlights and I have trouble seeing lane
markings and signs as well in those cases.

> What evidence can you provide to support your assertion...?

A side by side comparison between a FMVSS 108 standard headlamp on the
drivers side and a ECE compliant headlamp on the passenger side. Same
set of bulbs. The left side of the illuminated area appeared to be
dimmed out. The high beam on the left side appeared to be much more
diffuse and dimmer versus the passenger side. The right side of the
cutoff was much lower for the FMVSS compliant headlamp. Also, FWIW, the
FMVSS headlamp assembly had been sitting in a box in storage for a
decade while the ECE headlamp assembly has been mounted in the car for
the same amount of time.