clutch / transmission question

I've copied and pasted my email question that I just sent to the Mazda
dealer in Tucson but I'd love input from those of you (most here) who have a
better understanding of the clutch and tranny than I do. One thing I didn't
mention in the letter (because I didn't want to hand them an 'easy answer'
that would just get rid of me real quick) but, I wonder about is; is my
'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear? Car has 105k, driven
hard but properly for at least the last 65k.

Thanks,
Chris
99BBB

I'm the crazy guy who blew thru on his way from Houston to Monterey CA for
the Miata 20yr Anniversary event. Ya'all (you guys?) did my clutch and throw
out bearing replacement. Well, on the trip (on the track to be more
accurate), during spirited driving, the transmission started to 'grind' just
a bit going into 3rd gear only. It could be on an upshift or a downshift,
either one. It didn't happen every time either. The other day I went out for
a 'spirited' drive and it was again doing it occasionally, going into 3rd
gear only.

A slow, more deliberate gear change doesn't seem to have this problem
however, that definitely takes the 'spirit' out of the 'spirited' drive!

Question is; is there any chance that this could be a clutch needing
adjustment after it's initial 'break in' period?

Would ya'all have done a transmission fluid change as part of the changing
of the clutch or, no? If not, maybe I just need to renew the fluid again.
I've got redline synthetic in there now but it's been in there a couple
years probably.

Input please?

In article >,
"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:

> is my
> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?

Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom of a
leaky slave.

--
Lanny Chambers
St. Louis, MO
'94C

I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible that the
linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem, however.
As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal slider
moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel syncros, and a
tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged. When you
tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro assembly for
both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the syncro teeth. A
couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the output shaft and
remove large nuts.

In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost effective
solution if the problem is actually the tranny.

"Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>
>> is my
>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>
> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom of a
> leaky slave.
>
> --
> Lanny Chambers
> St. Louis, MO
> '94C

Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple years old
so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any leakage. I had
sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the trip so, I
was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop in that level
but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having leaked is
miniscule.

So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I need an
easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over $1000 to do
the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going rate at
stealerships these days?

Thanks again guys,
Chris
99BBB


"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible that
> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem, however.
> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal slider
> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel syncros, and
> a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged. When you
> tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro assembly for
> both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the syncro teeth. A
> couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the output shaft and
> remove large nuts.
>
> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost effective
> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>
> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>
>>> is my
>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>
>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom of a
>> leaky slave.
>>
>> --
>> Lanny Chambers
>> St. Louis, MO
>> '94C
>
>

Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of ~80-100.
A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap either.
The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
included
a heavy labor discount.

"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple years
> old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any leakage.
> I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the trip
> so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop in
> that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
> leaked is miniscule.
>
> So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I need
> an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over $1000
> to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going rate
> at stealerships these days?
>
> Thanks again guys,
> Chris
> 99BBB
>
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
>> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible that
>> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
>> however.
>> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal slider
>> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel syncros,
>> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged.
>> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro
>> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the
>> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the
>> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>>
>> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost effective
>> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>>
>> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> In article >,
>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> is my
>>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>>
>>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom of a
>>> leaky slave.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Lanny Chambers
>>> St. Louis, MO
>>> '94C
>>
>>
>

On Apr 21, 10:32*pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of ~80-100.
> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap either.

Bruce, Do you think my problem (as I described it in the OP could be an
adjustment issue? It only happens going into 3rd and only if I'm rushing the
shift (only 90% of the time ;-)

Thanks,
Chris
99BBB

> wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 10:32 pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of ~80-100.
> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap
> either.
> The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
> included
> a heavy labor discount.
>
> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple years
> > old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any
> > leakage.
> > I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the
> > trip
> > so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop in
> > that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
> > leaked is miniscule.
>
> > So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I need
> > an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over $1000
> > to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going
> > rate
> > at stealerships these days?
>
> > Thanks again guys,
> > Chris
> > 99BBB
>
> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
> >> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible that
> >> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
> >> however.
> >> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal slider
> >> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel syncros,
> >> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged.
> >> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro
> >> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the
> >> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the
> >> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>
> >> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost effective
> >> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>
> >> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> In article >,
> >>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>
> >>>> is my
> >>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>
> >>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
> >>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom of
> >>> a
> >>> leaky slave.
>
> >>> --
> >>> Lanny Chambers
> >>> St. Louis, MO
> >>> '94C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Chris,
Yes, there is an adjustment for the clutch. You can find it in the
shop manual, or I think there is a section in "miata.net" garage. I
had to adjust the clutch on my 2003 when I replaced it.

Bruce Bing '03 LS

I'm not Bruce!

Logic says (to me anyway) that clutch adjustment should be considered if
there is a noticable problem in first gear.
(Flat level surface, such as a nice smooth parking lot)
With first gear selected, and the engine at idle, slowly release the clutch
until you feel it just start to engage. The engine RPM may drop just
slightly at this point.
There should have been a fair amount of clutch pedal travel before the
clutch started to engage. Also, with the clutch pedal pressed almost to the
floor, close to but not at it's travel limit, with the first gear selected,
there should be no tendancy for the car to move foreward when the engine is
revved with the brakes off.

If you have the service manual there are some distances specified. Many have
found that the distances in the manual are not optimum with aftermarket
clutches and pressure plates.

I'm afraid that your third gear problem is a tranny related problem, not a
clutch problem. (unfortunately)

"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
...
> Bruce, Do you think my problem (as I described it in the OP could be an
> adjustment issue? It only happens going into 3rd and only if I'm rushing
> the shift (only 90% of the time ;-)
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
> 99BBB
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Apr 21, 10:32 pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
>> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of ~80-100.
>> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap
>> either.
>> The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
>> included
>> a heavy labor discount.
>>
>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple
>> > years
>> > old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any
>> > leakage.
>> > I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the
>> > trip
>> > so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop in
>> > that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
>> > leaked is miniscule.
>>
>> > So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I
>> > need
>> > an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over
>> > $1000
>> > to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going
>> > rate
>> > at stealerships these days?
>>
>> > Thanks again guys,
>> > Chris
>> > 99BBB
>>
>> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
>> >> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible
>> >> that
>> >> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
>> >> however.
>> >> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal
>> >> slider
>> >> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel syncros,
>> >> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged.
>> >> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro
>> >> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the
>> >> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the
>> >> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>>
>> >> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost
>> >> effective
>> >> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>>
>> >> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>> In article >,
>> >>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>
>> >>>> is my
>> >>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>
>> >>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>> >>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom
>> >>> of a
>> >>> leaky slave.
>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Lanny Chambers
>> >>> St. Louis, MO
>> >>> '94C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Chris,
> Yes, there is an adjustment for the clutch. You can find it in the
> shop manual, or I think there is a section in "miata.net" garage. I
> had to adjust the clutch on my 2003 when I replaced it.
>
> Bruce Bing '03 LS

Chuck, with that hair, I could never confuse you with Bruce ....... geeesh!
Actually Chuck, you and I appear to be two of the oft dreaded 'top-posters'!
Bruce actually took the time (and I'm sure the newsgroup politically correct
crowd believe; the courtesy, to go all the way to the bottom of our previous
conversation and post his comment.

I do greatly appreciate your input, you (and many others, including Bruce
probably) have a better understanding of clutch / tranny than this lowly top
poster does. Then again, since their are only about 4 posters here these
days and two of us top post............... this may be our chance Chuck
............ let's take over the world!

Later,
Chris
99BBB

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not Bruce!
>
> Logic says (to me anyway) that clutch adjustment should be considered if
> there is a noticable problem in first gear.
> (Flat level surface, such as a nice smooth parking lot)
> With first gear selected, and the engine at idle, slowly release the
> clutch until you feel it just start to engage. The engine RPM may drop
> just slightly at this point.
> There should have been a fair amount of clutch pedal travel before the
> clutch started to engage. Also, with the clutch pedal pressed almost to
> the floor, close to but not at it's travel limit, with the first gear
> selected, there should be no tendancy for the car to move foreward when
> the engine is revved with the brakes off.
>
> If you have the service manual there are some distances specified. Many
> have found that the distances in the manual are not optimum with
> aftermarket clutches and pressure plates.
>
> I'm afraid that your third gear problem is a tranny related problem, not a
> clutch problem. (unfortunately)
>
> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bruce, Do you think my problem (as I described it in the OP could be an
>> adjustment issue? It only happens going into 3rd and only if I'm rushing
>> the shift (only 90% of the time ;-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris
>> 99BBB
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Apr 21, 10:32 pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
>>> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of
>>> ~80-100.
>>> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap
>>> either.
>>> The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
>>> included
>>> a heavy labor discount.
>>>
>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple
>>> > years
>>> > old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any
>>> > leakage.
>>> > I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the
>>> > trip
>>> > so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop
>>> > in
>>> > that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
>>> > leaked is miniscule.
>>>
>>> > So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I
>>> > need
>>> > an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over
>>> > $1000
>>> > to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going
>>> > rate
>>> > at stealerships these days?
>>>
>>> > Thanks again guys,
>>> > Chris
>>> > 99BBB
>>>
>>> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
>>> >> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible
>>> >> that
>>> >> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
>>> >> however.
>>> >> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal
>>> >> slider
>>> >> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel
>>> >> syncros,
>>> >> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged.
>>> >> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the syncro
>>> >> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on the
>>> >> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over the
>>> >> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>>>
>>> >> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost
>>> >> effective
>>> >> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>>>
>>> >> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >>> In article >,
>>> >>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>> is my
>>> >>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>>
>>> >>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>>> >>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom
>>> >>> of a
>>> >>> leaky slave.
>>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Lanny Chambers
>>> >>> St. Louis, MO
>>> >>> '94C- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Chris,
>> Yes, there is an adjustment for the clutch. You can find it in the
>> shop manual, or I think there is a section in "miata.net" garage. I
>> had to adjust the clutch on my 2003 when I replaced it.
>>
>> Bruce Bing '03 LS
>
>

I don't have time or the patience to read/scroll to the bottom of lengthy
chains. Nor do I get into the top/bottom fights!

"Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck, with that hair, I could never confuse you with Bruce .......
> geeesh! Actually Chuck, you and I appear to be two of the oft dreaded
> 'top-posters'! Bruce actually took the time (and I'm sure the newsgroup
> politically correct crowd believe; the courtesy, to go all the way to the
> bottom of our previous conversation and post his comment.
>
> I do greatly appreciate your input, you (and many others, including Bruce
> probably) have a better understanding of clutch / tranny than this lowly
> top poster does. Then again, since their are only about 4 posters here
> these days and two of us top post............... this may be our chance
> Chuck ........... let's take over the world!
>
> Later,
> Chris
> 99BBB
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm not Bruce!
>>
>> Logic says (to me anyway) that clutch adjustment should be considered if
>> there is a noticable problem in first gear.
>> (Flat level surface, such as a nice smooth parking lot)
>> With first gear selected, and the engine at idle, slowly release the
>> clutch until you feel it just start to engage. The engine RPM may drop
>> just slightly at this point.
>> There should have been a fair amount of clutch pedal travel before the
>> clutch started to engage. Also, with the clutch pedal pressed almost to
>> the floor, close to but not at it's travel limit, with the first gear
>> selected, there should be no tendancy for the car to move foreward when
>> the engine is revved with the brakes off.
>>
>> If you have the service manual there are some distances specified. Many
>> have found that the distances in the manual are not optimum with
>> aftermarket clutches and pressure plates.
>>
>> I'm afraid that your third gear problem is a tranny related problem, not
>> a clutch problem. (unfortunately)
>>
>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Bruce, Do you think my problem (as I described it in the OP could be an
>>> adjustment issue? It only happens going into 3rd and only if I'm rushing
>>> the shift (only 90% of the time ;-)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris
>>> 99BBB
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> On Apr 21, 10:32 pm, "Chuck" > wrote:
>>>> Moe or less-- Outrageous markup on parts, then a per hour fee of
>>>> ~80-100.
>>>> A good afterwmarket clutch & pressure plate for a miata isn't cheap
>>>> either.
>>>> The last one I replaced cost me about $600 several years ago, and that
>>>> included
>>>> a heavy labor discount.
>>>>
>>>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Thanks guys. My clutch slave and master cylinder are only a couple
>>>> > years
>>>> > old so, That seems unlikely to me. I will however, search for any
>>>> > leakage.
>>>> > I had sucked out and refilled the clutch master cylinder prior to the
>>>> > trip
>>>> > so, I was very aware of the fill level. There was no noticeable drop
>>>> > in
>>>> > that level but, maybe the actual quantity you're referring to having
>>>> > leaked is miniscule.
>>>>
>>>> > So there's not a clutch adjustment that might be necessary? Dang, I
>>>> > need
>>>> > an easy cheap fix (don't we all!) after the dealer charged me over
>>>> > $1000
>>>> > to do the clutch and throw out bearing. Is that pretty much the going
>>>> > rate
>>>> > at stealerships these days?
>>>>
>>>> > Thanks again guys,
>>>> > Chris
>>>> > 99BBB
>>>>
>>>> > "Chuck" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >> I'd second the check for the slave and boots.
>>>> >> I don't know how you drive, but with a "new" clutch, it's possible
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> the linkage is not quite right. It should not cause your problem,
>>>> >> however.
>>>> >> As to the syncros & 3d gear. In general, the syncros and a steal
>>>> >> slider
>>>> >> moves between two gears and neutral. You have brass and steel
>>>> >> syncros,
>>>> >> and a tapered surface that helps speed match as the gear is engaged.
>>>> >> When you tear down to repair, usually you end up replacing the
>>>> >> syncro
>>>> >> assembly for both gears, as well as any gear(s) that show wear on
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> syncro teeth. A couple of "special tools" are needed to slip over
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> output shaft and remove large nuts.
>>>>
>>>> >> In other words, finding a good used tranny may be a more cost
>>>> >> effective
>>>> >> solution if the problem is actually the tranny.
>>>>
>>>> >> "Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >>> In article >,
>>>> >>> "Chris D'Agnolo" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>>> is my
>>>> >>>> 'synchronizer' possibly beginning to fail on 3rd gear?
>>>>
>>>> >>> Could be, but first peel back the boot and check your clutch slave
>>>> >>> cylinder for leakage. Incomplete disengagement is the first symptom
>>>> >>> of a
>>>> >>> leaky slave.
>>>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> Lanny Chambers
>>>> >>> St. Louis, MO
>>>> >>> '94C- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>> Yes, there is an adjustment for the clutch. You can find it in the
>>> shop manual, or I think there is a section in "miata.net" garage. I
>>> had to adjust the clutch on my 2003 when I replaced it.
>>>
>>> Bruce Bing '03 LS
>>
>>
>