1997 Saturn - 2 issues

In article >, SMS > wrote:
>WendyC88 wrote:
>
>> Thanks all. 97 sc2, $1500 OBO. 140,000 miles, new timing belt and water
>> pump. I'll take it to a local shop and have them check.
>
>Chain not belt, but it's good that they changed it since the chain
>should be changed a lot sooner than 140K miles. Some mechanics recommend
>75K mile timing chain replacements on Saturns as preventative
>maintenance, since there have been a lot of issues with the timing chains.

Say whaaat? Timing *belts* *are* preventive-maintenance items. Timing *chains*
should last the life of the [rest of the] engine.

I agree. Timing chain should last if oil was properly serviced at regular
intervals. On the Check Engine light, there are two known and common issues
that may cause this with Saturn SLs and they are the Coolant Temperature
Sensor (CTS) and the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) valve. Both are fairly
simple fixes if either is the cause after getting the code scanned at
AutoZone for free.

Bob

"Private" > wrote in message
...
>
> "SMS" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Chain not belt,
>
> Correct
>
>> but it's good that they changed it since the chain should be changed a
>> lot sooner than 140K miles. Some mechanics recommend 75K mile timing
>> chain replacements on Saturns as preventative maintenance, since there
>> have been a lot of issues with the timing chains.
>
> IMHO, this is completely wrong,
> (provided that the engine has had regular oil changes at proper
> intervals.)
>
> IMHO, The timing chain is NOT a preventative maintenance item,
> (provided that the engine has had regular oil changes at proper
> intervals.)
> it should last the life of the engine or at least until other major repair
> is required.
> If the head needs to be removed for repair of valves or rings then
> replacement of the timing chain (and tensioner service or replacement)
> would be advisable.
>
> just my .02, YMMV.
>

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article >, SMS > wrote:
>> WendyC88 wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks all. 97 sc2, $1500 OBO. 140,000 miles, new timing belt and water
>>> pump. I'll take it to a local shop and have them check.
>> Chain not belt, but it's good that they changed it since the chain
>> should be changed a lot sooner than 140K miles. Some mechanics recommend
>> 75K mile timing chain replacements on Saturns as preventative
>> maintenance, since there have been a lot of issues with the timing chains.
>
> Say whaaat? Timing *belts* *are* preventive-maintenance items. Timing *chains*
> should last the life of the [rest of the] engine.

It's a common misconception. In the olden days timing chains were much
shorter and the expected "life of the car" was a lot shorter as well.
Saturn timing chains have a history of early failures. You need to go
beyond personal experience with one vehicle and get the view of a
mechanic that's worked on hundreds of vehicles. Read
"http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.saturn/msg/4d43014a06ae4d3b"
for more information.

That said, this is all moot for the current situation since the chain
was already changed. $1500 is a pretty good deal for this car if nothing
else is seriously wrong with it.

Private wrote:
> "SMS" > wrote in message
> ...
> snip
>> It's a common misconception. In the olden days timing chains were much
>> shorter and the expected "life of the car" was a lot shorter as well.
>> Saturn timing chains have a history of early failures. You need to go
>> beyond personal experience with one vehicle and get the view of a mechanic
>> that's worked on hundreds of vehicles. Read
>> "http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.saturn/msg/4d43014a06ae4d3b"
>> for more information.
> snip
>
> IMHO
> For those of you who are not regular readers of this NG it is worth noting
> that Steve Scharf (SMS) is the major proponent of the Saturn timing chain
> needs to be changed theory.

Yes, because I don't have any blinders on. There seems to be a lot of
people that mistakenly think that because a chain is steel that it
somehow never needs replacement. This is untrue, steel chains wear out
in all sorts of applications, not just timing chains.

Again read
"http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.saturn/msg/4d43014a06ae4d3b".


Let's move beyond personal attacks and concentrate on reality.

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
snip
> It's a common misconception. In the olden days timing chains were much
> shorter and the expected "life of the car" was a lot shorter as well.
> Saturn timing chains have a history of early failures. You need to go
> beyond personal experience with one vehicle and get the view of a mechanic
> that's worked on hundreds of vehicles. Read
> "http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.makers.saturn/msg/4d43014a06ae4d3b"
> for more information.
snip

IMHO
For those of you who are not regular readers of this NG it is worth noting
that Steve Scharf (SMS) is the major proponent of the Saturn timing chain
needs to be changed theory. For a more complete research into this issue I
suggest reading
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...8657e6a0fc0675
or do a search in Google Groups for other and more recent threads.

As in all such things there is no definitive correct answer and nobody can
accurately predict the service life of an individual mechanical component.
This is especially true of preowned vehicles. Most reports of failures are
anecdotal and can be considered anomalies.

Mechanical service life is a bit of a crap shoot that is influenced by
maintenance and operating conditions and driving style. Most people lump
the SOHC and the DOHC engines together when reporting service issues such as
oil consumption and valve train wear. Engine wear increases are not linear
with speed and are normally considered to increase at the square of the
engine speed. In other words wear will be 4 times higher @ 6000rpm than at
3000rpm. DOHC engines are much more likely to be driven in a 'spirited'
manner and IMHO are much more likely to suffer issues of oil consumption and
valve train wear as well as reduced tire and brake life. For this reason
(and lower fuel economy) I would never purchase a used DOHC.

Beyond original warranty, there are no guaranties of service life and engine
lifetime management becomes a balance between doing nothing and perhaps
incurring a costly failure and overdoing preventative maintenance which
results in added expense from fixing stuff that aint broke, as well as
issues caused by the quality of the repair work. Repair work seldom has the
quality control of the original factory. Regular maintenance and oil
changes are the cheapest and most cost effective way to lengthen service
life especially when combined with proper warm up in cold weather and the
avoidance of 'spirited' high rpm operation and short trips.

As these cars age the benefits of excessive preventative repair become
smaller as does the cost of any needed repair due to catastrophic failure.
The economics of engine management is that a catastrophic failure is less of
a loss on an engine nearing the end of its service life than if it occurs
near the start. If you really want to maximize service life some would
advocate a half life rebuild including new rings bearings and valve guides,
and a new timing chain would certainly be appropriate at that time. However
most of us know that such a rebuild does not add any resale value to the car
and we prefer to continue use until some problem occurs at which time we can
make the repair or replace decision at that time.

As this model ages they are now quite common in the scrap yards and we have
more options for economical repair. A good used engine can now be purchased
for very little more than the cost of replacing a timing chain. A complete
running car with good tires and battery will only be a little more (or
less). I just purchased a very good running car with near new tires and
battery (and a new stereo/CD player )for $400. It had a little easily
repairable body damage and drives very well, I have repaired the damage but
this would have been an excellent donor car to use for spare parts. These
cars are easy to work on and a little DIY mechanical can save a LOT of
money.

Good luck, YMMV

Wendy, I am not a mechanic, but have owned and driven a 1998 SATURN
since 2001. I DO keep it well maintained - common "joke" is if I ever
bought a Lamborghini, I'd keep the Saturn for dependability.

I transferred from New Hampshire to Nevada in January 2005 - drove - I
believe it was 3,200 miles .. Erie, PA, Chicago, Rochester, MN .. winter
time - stopped in Deadwood, SD for 3 days, then dropped down to Casper /
Rawlins, WY - Salt Lake - Nevada .......... not ONE LICK of car
problems.

It now has 70,000 miles on it < I only drive like 100 miles a Month > ..
been to Oregon and back with it a few times, California and back alot ..
again, not a lick of problems.

I don't see where you can go wrong with purchasing it for a teenager <
I'm talking actually not seeing the vehicle ... assumed > .. the most
important factor in ANY car < even Lamborghini's > is maintenance.

My broad stroked rule of thumb is to do naturally, the regular oil
changes, and about Quarterly check a major item .. EGR Valve ....next
Quarter, brakes .. alignment the next, etc etc.

We've been getting the smoke from all the California fires, so here
shortly I'll be purchasing a new air filter as I can only imagine what
the current one looks like.

IF you do purchase the '97 and the little radiator looking light comes
on - right top light on the '98 dash - don't be alarmed like I was ... I
was on my way back from California and it came on - went straight to my
mechanic ... all's it was telling me was my engine coolant RESERVE was
1/8th of an inch low, not the radiator, the 1/2 gallon RESERVE bottle !

Can't speak for the 2007/2008's, but my '98 has treated me like GOLD.

Good Luck :-)

On Jul 1, 11:32*pm, SMS > wrote:
> WendyC88 wrote:
> > Thanks all. *97 sc2, $1500 OBO. *140,000 miles, new timing belt and water
> > pump. *I'll take it to a local shop and have them check.
>
> Chain not belt, but it's good that they changed it since the chain
> should be changed a lot sooner than 140K miles.

No... It shouldn't.

> Some mechanics recommend
> 75K mile timing chain replacements on Saturns as preventative

Yeah it's no surprise that "mechanics" will push a needless upsale.

> maintenance, since there have been a lot of issues with the timing chains..

A lot huh? I've seen more broken timing belts before 70k than broken
timing chains before 140k on anything.

Lets make it clear that you do not and have not worked in a car shop
nor have you ever owned or worked on a Saturn in your life.