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Help diagnose starting problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 19th 04, 09:06 PM
JFM
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Posts: n/a
Default Help diagnose starting problem

My daughter and son-in-law have a 92 Olds Cutlass Cierra with the 3300
V6 engine, auto trans, and a/c.

The other day they were driving along, and the engine just quit. While
they were still rolling, they put the trans in neutral and tried to
start it. The engine turned over but would not start.

When they came to a stop, they tried again to start it, and it
wouldn't do anything. When they turn the starter switch, nothing
happens. You can't even hear the solenoid clicking or the starter
trying to engage. No sound at all.

The battery is fully charged, and all of the guages, etc., and other
electrical devices are working. I would appreciate any suggestions as
to how to troubleshoot this.

JFM
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  #2  
Old December 20th 04, 12:04 AM
« Paul »
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JFM wrote:
>
> My daughter and son-in-law have a 92 Olds Cutlass Cierra with the 3300
> V6 engine, auto trans, and a/c.
>
> The other day they were driving along, and the engine just quit. While
> they were still rolling, they put the trans in neutral and tried to
> start it. The engine turned over but would not start.
>
> When they came to a stop, they tried again to start it, and it
> wouldn't do anything. When they turn the starter switch, nothing
> happens. You can't even hear the solenoid clicking or the starter
> trying to engage. No sound at all.
>
> The battery is fully charged, and all of the guages, etc., and other
> electrical devices are working. I would appreciate any suggestions as
> to how to troubleshoot this.
>
> JFM


Sounds like several things happened at once.
Do the headlights come on bright?
What happens when they/you move the gearshift while cranking?
What is the voltage across the battery?
Do the cells look ok?
My guess is that either the battery is dead and/or the neutral
switch is messed up and/or the alternator is shot.
Could also be ign.mod, crank sensor, no fuel, etc.
A hundred things. You will need to do some diagnosis first.
  #3  
Old December 20th 04, 12:30 AM
JFM
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:04:11 GMT, "« Paul »" <"
> wrote:

Has to be something that keeps the starter from working at all.
Jumping from another vehicle doesn't help. Seems to rule out battery
issues.

If it was out of gas, the starter would still work.

Which of these could cause these symptoms:
ign.mod, crank sensor, neutral switch?

Thanks,
JFM

>
>Sounds like several things happened at once.
>Do the headlights come on bright?
>What happens when they/you move the gearshift while cranking?
>What is the voltage across the battery?
>Do the cells look ok?
>My guess is that either the battery is dead and/or the neutral
>switch is messed up and/or the alternator is shot.
>Could also be ign.mod, crank sensor, no fuel, etc.
>A hundred things. You will need to do some diagnosis first.


  #4  
Old December 20th 04, 12:46 AM
Lawrence Glickman
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Default

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:30:12 GMT, JFM >
wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:04:11 GMT, "« Paul »" <"
> wrote:
>
>Has to be something that keeps the starter from working at all.
>Jumping from another vehicle doesn't help. Seems to rule out battery
>issues.
>
>If it was out of gas, the starter would still work.
>
>Which of these could cause these symptoms:
>ign.mod, crank sensor, neutral switch?
>
>Thanks,
>JFM


You have to look at the vehicle. Or pay someone else to do it for
you.

1st thing is check the grounding point(s) for the B- of battery.
2nd thing to check is your vacuum hoses for leaks, disconnections.
3rd thing is wiring to your Throttle Positon Sensor, or possibly this
itself is bad.

I have a *scanner,* and my scanner tells me that at idle, my throttle
position sensor is at 18.4% of full scale. If you don't have a
scanner, your ****ing in the wind, you don't -know- anything about it.

There is the possibility you have a malfunctioning mass air flow
sensor. At idle, I am taking on 0.52 to 0.63 pounds of air per minute
for a 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.

I could go on, but you get the idea. You need some diagnostic tools
if you want to fix this by yourself.

If you are a hobbyist like I am, buy a scanner ( not just a code
reader ) and DIY. Or, bring it to a shop/dealer and pay, pay, and pay
some more. In the end, you will have paid enough to probably buy your
own scanner and then some.

Lg

  #5  
Old December 20th 04, 12:49 AM
Lawrence Glickman
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:30:12 GMT, JFM >
wrote:

I forgot to mention FUEL PUMP.

on my car, the fuel system pressure should be between 35 and 45 PSI.
at idle, I have between 38 and 41. How do I know.......you guess.

Lg

  #6  
Old December 20th 04, 01:14 AM
Steve B.
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:30:12 GMT, JFM >
wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:04:11 GMT, "« Paul »" <"
> wrote:
>
>Has to be something that keeps the starter from working at all.
>Jumping from another vehicle doesn't help. Seems to rule out battery
>issues.
>
>If it was out of gas, the starter would still work.
>
>Which of these could cause these symptoms:
>ign.mod, crank sensor, neutral switch?
>
>Thanks,
>JFM


Do you have two positive cables on the battery. If so these lioved to
get corosion between the cables and cause problems like this.

Steve B.
  #7  
Old December 20th 04, 01:52 AM
« Paul »
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Posts: n/a
Default

JFM wrote:
> =


> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:04:11 GMT, "=AB Paul =BB" <"
> > wrote:
> =


> Has to be something that keeps the starter from working at all.
> Jumping from another vehicle doesn't help. Seems to rule out battery
> issues.
> =


> If it was out of gas, the starter would still work.
> =


> Which of these could cause these symptoms:
> ign.mod, crank sensor, neutral switch?
> =


> Thanks,
> JFM


If the starter does not work at all AND there is no click at the
solenoid, then I would suspect one of these:
neutral start switch, ignition switch, bad ground, bad hot connection.
Check/clean the connections at the starter and soleniod and see if that
helps.
If the solenoid clicks, then it could be solenoid or bad connections,
hot and/or ground, or bad starter.

The crank sensor and/or ign.mod would not prevent cranking but would
prevent starting - if they were bad.

Hmmm... Since the car died suddenly on the road and would not crank,
I would look for bad connections, hot or ground, or a fried fusable link.=

  #8  
Old December 20th 04, 02:07 AM
JFM
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Posts: n/a
Default

I assume that all of these things, and the fuel pump, would prevent
the starter from working at all?

JFM

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:46:50 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:

>You have to look at the vehicle. Or pay someone else to do it for
>you.
>
>1st thing is check the grounding point(s) for the B- of battery.
>2nd thing to check is your vacuum hoses for leaks, disconnections.
>3rd thing is wiring to your Throttle Positon Sensor, or possibly this
>itself is bad.
>
>I have a *scanner,* and my scanner tells me that at idle, my throttle
>position sensor is at 18.4% of full scale. If you don't have a
>scanner, your ****ing in the wind, you don't -know- anything about it.
>
>There is the possibility you have a malfunctioning mass air flow
>sensor. At idle, I am taking on 0.52 to 0.63 pounds of air per minute
>for a 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.
>
>I could go on, but you get the idea. You need some diagnostic tools
>if you want to fix this by yourself.
>
>If you are a hobbyist like I am, buy a scanner ( not just a code
>reader ) and DIY. Or, bring it to a shop/dealer and pay, pay, and pay
>some more. In the end, you will have paid enough to probably buy your
>own scanner and then some.
>
>Lg


  #9  
Old December 20th 04, 02:28 AM
Steve B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:07:12 GMT, JFM >
wrote:

>I assume that all of these things, and the fuel pump, would prevent
>the starter from working at all?
>
>JFM




The ground strap issue is the only one that could possibly stop the
starter from working and even that would be a stretch since the neg
battery cable goes right to the engine. I think he missed the part
about the starter now working at all and thought it just wouldnt
start.

Steve B.




>
>On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:46:50 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:
>
>>You have to look at the vehicle. Or pay someone else to do it for
>>you.
>>
>>1st thing is check the grounding point(s) for the B- of battery.
>>2nd thing to check is your vacuum hoses for leaks, disconnections.
>>3rd thing is wiring to your Throttle Positon Sensor, or possibly this
>>itself is bad.
>>
>>I have a *scanner,* and my scanner tells me that at idle, my throttle
>>position sensor is at 18.4% of full scale. If you don't have a
>>scanner, your ****ing in the wind, you don't -know- anything about it.
>>
>>There is the possibility you have a malfunctioning mass air flow
>>sensor. At idle, I am taking on 0.52 to 0.63 pounds of air per minute
>>for a 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.
>>
>>I could go on, but you get the idea. You need some diagnostic tools
>>if you want to fix this by yourself.
>>
>>If you are a hobbyist like I am, buy a scanner ( not just a code
>>reader ) and DIY. Or, bring it to a shop/dealer and pay, pay, and pay
>>some more. In the end, you will have paid enough to probably buy your
>>own scanner and then some.
>>
>>Lg


  #10  
Old December 20th 04, 02:40 AM
Lawrence Glickman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:28:04 GMT, Steve B. > wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:07:12 GMT, JFM >
>wrote:
>
>>I assume that all of these things, and the fuel pump, would prevent
>>the starter from working at all?
>>
>>JFM


I am the first to admit I don't know what is going on with this car.
That said, you need 3 things to make it run
fuel
air
ignition

so my idea was/is, what is your fuel system pressure under Load?
It might be OK at idle, it might not be delivering enough at speed.
Why not? Could be any number of things, including the fuel pump
itself, or a clogged fuel filter.

The other idea I had was an electrical system that is borderline
because of corrosion somewhere. Not a good ground, B+, or whatever
combination thereof, starting with the battery and working out from
there. Intermittent continuity is the idea.

Then again, I don't know this particular car/vehicle. These are all
WAGs ( wild assed guesses ). Me, I would hook up my scanner and drive
it around, checking the numbers for each system until I found
something *funny.* But, OP doesn't -have- a scanner, so? So we're
left with WAGs.

Lg


>The ground strap issue is the only one that could possibly stop the
>starter from working and even that would be a stretch since the neg
>battery cable goes right to the engine. I think he missed the part
>about the starter now working at all and thought it just wouldnt
>start.
>
> Steve B.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:46:50 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:
>>
>>>You have to look at the vehicle. Or pay someone else to do it for
>>>you.
>>>
>>>1st thing is check the grounding point(s) for the B- of battery.
>>>2nd thing to check is your vacuum hoses for leaks, disconnections.
>>>3rd thing is wiring to your Throttle Positon Sensor, or possibly this
>>>itself is bad.
>>>
>>>I have a *scanner,* and my scanner tells me that at idle, my throttle
>>>position sensor is at 18.4% of full scale. If you don't have a
>>>scanner, your ****ing in the wind, you don't -know- anything about it.
>>>
>>>There is the possibility you have a malfunctioning mass air flow
>>>sensor. At idle, I am taking on 0.52 to 0.63 pounds of air per minute
>>>for a 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio.
>>>
>>>I could go on, but you get the idea. You need some diagnostic tools
>>>if you want to fix this by yourself.
>>>
>>>If you are a hobbyist like I am, buy a scanner ( not just a code
>>>reader ) and DIY. Or, bring it to a shop/dealer and pay, pay, and pay
>>>some more. In the end, you will have paid enough to probably buy your
>>>own scanner and then some.
>>>
>>>Lg


 




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