Betta fins suddenly shredded

"Derek Benson" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:

Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.

I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.

Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
pretty normally, and nobody's talking.

What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?

Do you live alone, or are there other people in your household? If
you're not alone, after you went to bed someone else moved one of the
bettas to the other side because they wanted to see a fight. After the
fighting the betta was moved back.

Otherwise one of your bettas jumped over the partition in that 2 cm
area and then jumped back. This isn't unlikely at all, except for the
fact that it had to jump back the way it came, which does seem a bit
weird. How high was the water level compared to this 2cm space? Like
1cm from the water up to that area, or 5 cm? 1 or 2 cm can't be any
problem for a betta to jump, even though it has to hit that specific
small area.

I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
think?

Bettas fins always grow back out by themselves, don't do anything
different than what you usually do with the bettas.

-Derek

I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....

On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:46 -0700, "Alpha" wrote:

I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....


I don't know what an Eclipse is, but could it have been sucked onto
the intake to the filter, shredding the fins?

-Derek

Derek Benson wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:


Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.

I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and was
wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.

Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
pretty normally, and nobody's talking.

What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?


Do you live alone, or are there other people in your household? If
you're not alone, after you went to bed someone else moved one of the
bettas to the other side because they wanted to see a fight. After the
fighting the betta was moved back.

Otherwise one of your bettas jumped over the partition in that 2 cm
area and then jumped back. This isn't unlikely at all, except for the
fact that it had to jump back the way it came, which does seem a bit
weird. How high was the water level compared to this 2cm space? Like
1cm from the water up to that area, or 5 cm? 1 or 2 cm can't be any
problem for a betta to jump, even though it has to hit that specific
small area.

I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
think?

Bettas fins always grow back out by themselves, don't do anything
different than what you usually do with the bettas.

-Derek

There's just me, fish, shrimp, and snails in the house, so unless the
mystery snail in the next tank over cruised over and moved a betta,
that's not the answer. Sensible idea, though.

The water was high enough for an easy jump. The divider is plastic
canvas to the top of the tank, and the glass cover almost against the
HOB filter intake. If I put it flush, it rattles. I thought the filter
intake was in the way enough to prevent such a mishap. Obviously not.
:-( I have made any further jumping impossible with more canvas.

The damage does look physical, and not at all like fin or tail rot.
That's why I was so shocked by the suddenness of it. With toxic water,
I would expect to see white edges, fairly even damage (the dorsals are
nearly perfect on both fish), and behavioral signs of stress.

Good to know that I can do my usual clean water thing even for fins this
damaged.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Derek Benson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:06:46 -0700, "Alpha" wrote:

I have a betta alone in an Eclipse and had the same overnight shredding.
There is gravel and the intake for the eclipse, but no plants or other
objects. It always mystified me as it happens whenever I get a betta. I
have never seen the betta rub on the gravel.....


I don't know what an Eclipse is, but could it have been sucked onto
the intake to the filter, shredding the fins?


http://www.marineland.com/products/c...on_eclipse.asp



No to your question.

"Elaine T" wrote in message
.. .
IDzine01 wrote:
Oh, I also wanted to mention that I have had major shredded fins occur
when I'm not carful with ph testing. My tap water is more alkaline then
my tank water so if I'm not careful and change too much water (50%) the
pH levels fluctuate more then the .2 safe range. That's when I notice
shredding on my old betta.

I actually haven't heard anyone verify that pH fluctuations can cause
shredded fins so I can't say for sure if this is true, but I have seen
it a few times now and it's consistant with pH fluctuations.


That is interesting, I was playing with ph up when that happened to my male
betta over a decade ago, it's possible as I see it that ph fluctuations can
cause this. But I must say - in elaine's case I think it's just very clever
and always surprising bettas, my empty bet is that one of her bettas jumped
the divider, fought with the other one and jumped back or something similar.
I know they can really jump (bettas) as every once in a while when I had my
betta (and female betta at times) it would jump straight up and ram into my
aquarium glass cover with a lot of force and a big banging sound, I think
only the female did this though and I think that's what eventually killed
her by putting her into terminal shock. Good luck, and later!
Maybe someone can verify or discount this theory for me. I'd like to
know.


I'd like to know too.


Thanks,
christie

Really? I did big water changes Friday and Sunday since I've been
battling algae growing on the java moss. I wanted to lower phosphates.
Seems like Sunday to Wednesday is kind of a long gap but that makes
more sense than anything else I've come up with. My tap water is
alkaline and variable - I've tested it as high as pH 8. The pH of the
betta tank usually stays fairly close because there's no gravel to trap
anything but I didn't test this time.

Does the shredding you take a few days after the pH change and then
happen literally overnight?

Happily, the little guys are looking fine in every other way.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
.. .
Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking
total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night. I
immediately tested the water, expecting to see ammonia but it was 0/0/5
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate as usual. I changed 60% of the water and added
extra AmQuel anyway. The tank has been cycled and stable for about 3
months and gets weekly 50% water changes. It also has a lot of java
moss that would tend to soak up an ammonia spike.

I also cleaned the filter, which gets some sunlight, and the inside was
coated with blue-green algae. I've heard of toxic cyanobacteria and
was wondering whether cyanobacteria toxins can cause fin problems and
nothing else? I'm grasping at straws.

Or did one of my bettas jump the 2 cm of divider that's not covered by
glass, neatly dodging the filter intake, fight his tankmate, and jump
back?!? There is no other way around or through the divider. A fight
fits the best but seems improbable. Both fish are eating, behaving
pretty normally, and nobody's talking.

What do you all think and does anyone have experience healing bettas'
fins after a fight? I always use very clean water and more frequent
feedings for fin damage, but I've never seen betta fins this badly
damaged. Are there any other betta specific tips or tricks?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__


Self-induced damage from a fit of posturing at each other? Disease won't
usually cause synchronized symptoms. Even water parameters take some
time unless at a real extreme.

If one had paid his neighbour a visit, it's too bad that you didn't find
them in opposite sides ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

It's very possible for male Bettas to hop from side to side for fight
and then flip back over into his own side.
This is main reason I don't keep divided male Betta tanks. I keep them
in either 1g's, 2 1/2g's, or 3g's by themsleves.
The females I keep in my 75g with my Angelfish.
I've seen Bettas jump through the smallest of openings.
It's amazing how good their aim is when flopping out of the water,
through a hole or wriggling through a space to have either a fight or
to spawn, and then find their way back again.

I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
think?

Cyanobacteria is caused by high ammonia and low nitrate. By the time you
have a bynch of it it's used the ammonia so it'll test 0. But with ammonia
in the tank anyprotozoal disease can take over very quickly. It's easyt to
miss the beginnings of this and they can seeeminly overnight go from
what looked like a perfect fish to a tattered mess.

Acriflavine cures this 99% of the time. Anything similar should
work. An of these owuld work too:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/ant.../alternatives/



--
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http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
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Richard Sexton wrote:
I won't believe for one second that cyanobacteria or ammonia or pH
variations or anything else similar will cause a bettas fins to tatter
overnight. It sounds from your description that the fins are
physically ripped apart; these other "chemical" types of things, if
they are so bad as to cause a problem, would be likely to cause fins
to rot away over time, as if the fish has fin and tail rot, don't you
think?


Cyanobacteria is caused by high ammonia and low nitrate. By the time you
have a bynch of it it's used the ammonia so it'll test 0. But with ammonia
in the tank anyprotozoal disease can take over very quickly. It's easyt to
miss the beginnings of this and they can seeeminly overnight go from
what looked like a perfect fish to a tattered mess.

Acriflavine cures this 99% of the time. Anything similar should
work. An of these owuld work too:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/ant.../alternatives/



That makes more sense than a fish jumping across, fighting to less than
the death, and jumping back. And nitrates are low because of the clumps
of java moss and floating watersprite in the tank.

Funny you should post this today. I was actually thinking of adding
copper, formalin/malachite, or permanganate this morning because I just
wasn't quite convinced it was a fight. I almost bought acriflavine at
the pet store today and decided against it because I didn't want to kill
all the nitrifying bacteria in the tank.

I'll go with formalin/malachite since it won't trash my filter, I have
it around, and it works for most protozoans. Hopefully it won't inhibit
fin regrowth if it was a fight.

Thanks!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T May 18, 3:00 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
From: Elaine T - Find messages by this author

Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 19:00:28 GMT
Local: Wed,May 18 2005 3:00 pm
Subject: Betta fins suddenly shredded
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Ack! I have 2 bettas in a divided 2.5 gal tank with a Nano Filter. I
woke up this morning and both bettas' fins are in tatters. I'm talking

total, heartbreaking shreds. Both were in perfect shape last night.


Hi Elaine. I reposted your original post that explained what you found
the next morning.
Fine the night before, and absolutely shredded by morning does sound
like one hopped over divider.
Don't dismiss that so lightly. It is *very* possible and the main
reason i do NOT divide male Betta tanks, as well have lids on any of
them that are next to one another.
These fish are very capable at aiming their bodies through a very small
place...and getting back.