No early first oil change

"TomP" > wrote
> Earle and earle-like customers are the bane of the
> dealer service
> departments. They always have a strong opinion, and are
> often misinformed, and
> are typically SoB's to deal with.

And service departments never have strong opinions and are
never wrong?

Let's start with something simple, like the bull**** line
from the typical dealer that the engine oil has to be
changed every 3k miles.

Earle and I may not always agree, but Earle is one of many
contributors whose posts here I think are worth reading.

TomP wrote:
>
> Tegger wrote:
>
>> "Elle" > wrote in news:5xG2i.7248
>> :
>>
>>> "Earle Horton" > wrote
>>>> "Tegger" > wrote
>>>>> And you're an engineer? Neither am I.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm a software design engineer, retired. You can safely
>>>> come to me for
>>>> advice on all engineering related topics.
>>> Do you really feel that software design "engineer" denotes
>>> education, training, and experience equivalent to
>>> mechanical, electrical, chemical, and civil engineers?
>>>
>>> Just curious. I do not think one need be a bona fide
>>> engineer to have intelligent discussions on technical topics
>>> here or elsewhere.
>> True, but my point (obiquely stated) was that Honda mechanical and chemical
>> engineers came up with the directive to not perform the initial oil change
>> too soon. For us non-engineers to disregard that edict is foolish, since we
>> cannot possibly know more than Honda does.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
> Tegger knows this but for the othere he
>
> Earle and earle-like customers are the bane of the dealer service
> departments. They always have a strong opinion, and are often misinformed, and
> are typically SoB's to deal with.
>
> What they don't realize is Techincians have their own version of "spitting
> in the food"; so Earle and earle-like agitators, make trouble for the dealer,
> then try to guess where the "spit" ;-) is....

it cuts both ways dude. misinformation in the motor service industry is
the rule, not the exception. you may have been told something, and you
may even believe it, but it doesn't mean it's right. every now and
then, you /will/ get a customer that knows more than you. or who knows
someone else that knows. when the monkeylube service manager is
bull****ting my grandmother about how her transmission fluid needs
changing urgently, she simply calls me on her cellphone and hands it to
him. /i/ then politely tell him that i personally changed it last week
and that his inspection tech must have made a mistake and that i'll come
on over if there's any problem. unsurprisingly, there is no problem and
she leaves without being ripped off, but will never return. now, whose
food are you trying to spit in? from where i sit, it looks like your own.

bottom line, you need to try being a little bit smart about figuring out
the customer. if they know more than you, and you're not smart enough
to recognize that, and you go ahead and bull**** them anyway, you're
screwed. did i ever tell you that i used to date a lawyer whose first
degree was in engineering? there's a number of vehicle service centers
in san francisco that very much regret the day they tried messing with
her. grow up and get smart, before you get sore.

Suppose the new car was sitting on the lot for 6 months before being sold.
During such time it picked up a couple hundred miles for test drives. How
long to wait for an oil change in that case?


"Tegger" > wrote in message
...
> "Eye In The Sky" <ruleman@> wrote in
> :
>
>> I've got a new Accord and my custom when buying a new car has always
>> been to change the oil at about 1000 miles. No doubt that's a hold
>> over from the bad old days when you had to get the metal chips and
>> debris deposited during the sloppy engine manufacturing process out of
>> there. Unnecessary today I'm sure with improved manufacturing-- but I
>> was going to do it nonetheless.
>>
>> But the owner's manual specifically says not to change the oil early
>> the first time. Why is that? Is there some kind of special "break in"
>> oil in there?
>>
>>
>
>
> There certainly is. Honda explicitly says so in the Aug'06 issue of Honda
> Service News.
>
> An excerpt:
> "What's really important to remember here is this:
> Don't change the factory-fill engine oil because it
> looks dark; just make sure it's at the right fluid
> level. To ensure proper engine break-in, the
> factory-fill engine oil needs to remain in the
> engine until the first scheduled maintenance
> interval."
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"Art" > wrote in message
ink.net...


> Suppose the new car was sitting on the lot for 6 months before being sold.
> During such time it picked up a couple hundred miles for test drives. How
> long to wait for an oil change in that case?

I would avoid buying that particular car. It's had too much abuse. Test
drivers do hard acceleration, stops-- etc., etc.

The ones I buy have 5 miles or less on them. My ass is the first non-Honda
or dealer to sit in that seat.

"Art" > wrote in
ink.net:

> Suppose the new car was sitting on the lot for 6 months before being
> sold. During such time it picked up a couple hundred miles for test
> drives. How long to wait for an oil change in that case?



Whatever it says in the time/mileage chart. Or whatever the Mileage Minder
says.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
> TomP wrote:
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
> >
> >> "Elle" > wrote in news:5xG2i.7248
> >> :
> >>
> >>> "Earle Horton" > wrote
> >>>> "Tegger" > wrote
> >>>>> And you're an engineer? Neither am I.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I'm a software design engineer, retired. You can safely
> >>>> come to me for
> >>>> advice on all engineering related topics.
> >>> Do you really feel that software design "engineer" denotes
> >>> education, training, and experience equivalent to
> >>> mechanical, electrical, chemical, and civil engineers?
> >>>
> >>> Just curious. I do not think one need be a bona fide
> >>> engineer to have intelligent discussions on technical topics
> >>> here or elsewhere.
> >> True, but my point (obiquely stated) was that Honda mechanical and
> >> chemical
> >> engineers came up with the directive to not perform the initial oil
> >> change
> >> too soon. For us non-engineers to disregard that edict is foolish,
> >> since we
> >> cannot possibly know more than Honda does.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tegger
> >>
> >> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> >> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> >
> > Tegger knows this but for the othere he
> >
> > Earle and earle-like customers are the bane of the dealer service
> > departments. They always have a strong opinion, and are often
> > misinformed, and are typically SoB's to deal with.

It is real easy to become "misinformed" reading the service recommendations
in the owner's manual, eh?

> >
> > What they don't realize is Techincians have their own version of
> > "spitting
> > in the food"; so Earle and earle-like agitators, make trouble for the
> > dealer,
> > then try to guess where the "spit" ;-) is....
>
> it cuts both ways dude. misinformation in the motor service industry is
> the rule, not the exception. you may have been told something, and you

I don't want to get personal here but I have been an auto service technician
and many, not all, only do that job because they don't have the ambition or
the ability to become something more profitable like a nurse's aide or
hairdresser. Heh, or like Tom says, a lawyer.

Saludos,

Earle

> may even believe it, but it doesn't mean it's right. every now and
> then, you /will/ get a customer that knows more than you. or who knows
> someone else that knows. when the monkeylube service manager is
> bull****ting my grandmother about how her transmission fluid needs
> changing urgently, she simply calls me on her cellphone and hands it to
> him. /i/ then politely tell him that i personally changed it last week
> and that his inspection tech must have made a mistake and that i'll come
> on over if there's any problem. unsurprisingly, there is no problem and
> she leaves without being ripped off, but will never return. now, whose
> food are you trying to spit in? from where i sit, it looks like your own.
>
> bottom line, you need to try being a little bit smart about figuring out
> the customer. if they know more than you, and you're not smart enough
> to recognize that, and you go ahead and bull**** them anyway, you're
> screwed. did i ever tell you that i used to date a lawyer whose first
> degree was in engineering? there's a number of vehicle service centers
> in san francisco that very much regret the day they tried messing with
> her. grow up and get smart, before you get sore.

TomP wrote:
>
> Tegger wrote:
>
>>> Is this the Magic Mystery Break-In oil thing again?
>>>
>>> Just what is in this magic oil?
>>>
>> I do not know. However, I did read once that break-in oil is low in
>> dispersants.
>
> Honda factory fill oil is special only in that it is rich with
> Molybdenum disulfide ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulphide )
> assembly lubricants. Moly, as it's know to mechanics, help the rotating,
> reciprocating engine components marry into their mating parts completely.

i think that statement needs some qualification: many would consider
"marrying" to be a process like grinding in a valve with abrasive so it
seats properly. that's something MoS2 /doesn't/ do. how it works is
that, when used in assembly, it provides solid state lubrication until
oil is flowing properly. with a newly assembled engine, that's critical
since there are surface anomalies [call them microscopic "high points"]
in all the newly machined parts and metal-to-metal contact between them
would cause localized welding, galling, and rapid wear. MoS2 simply
allows these parts to slide and deform their way into conformity, or to
a more substantial degree anyway. after it's allowed the first few
non-damaging revolutions of the engine, its job is done.

>
> Yes, Honda factory fill oil should be left in until the oil life
> indicator gets 10% or one year, which ever comes first.
>
> Engine manufacturers go to great lengths to remove ALL machining debris,
> before assembling an engine.

indeed - this is absolutely /critical/ to engine longevity. it's
typically the major differentiator in wear life between new and
remanufactured engines. there's no real reason why a remanufactured
engine can't last just as long as the original build, but they rarely
last 30% as long. reason is hygiene after machining. microscopic grit
particles left in things like cylinder bores after re-honing get lodged
and then abrade. a wipe with an oily rag so "that looks clean enough"
just doesn't work.

You snipped the last part of the sentence..."assembly lubricants."

I could have said that better... like "from assembly lubricants."

Tegger wrote:

> TomP > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
> >
> >> > Is this the Magic Mystery Break-In oil thing again?
> >> >
> >> > Just what is in this magic oil?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I do not know. However, I did read once that break-in oil is low in
> >> dispersants.
> >
> > Honda factory fill oil is special only in that it is rich with
> > Molybdenum disulfide assembly lubricants.
>
> Apparently not. Honda has stated that the molybdenum evident in the factory
> fill comes from engine assembly lube. That stuff IS heavy on moly.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

--
Tp,

-------- __o
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-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...

Art wrote:

> Suppose the new car was sitting on the lot for 6 months before being sold.
> During such time it picked up a couple hundred miles for test drives. How
> long to wait for an oil change in that case?

I would still adhere to the manufacturer's recommendation of one year or <10%
oil life.
The point of having a "time limit" takes into consideration short trip driving
and lot rot.

However, you do raise a good point, 200 miles accumulated 2 or 3 miles at a
time is not good for any car at any time in its life.



--
Tp,

-------- __o
----- -\<. -------- __o
--- ( )/ ( ) ---- -\<.
-------------------- ( )/ ( )
-----------------------------------------

No Lawsuit Ever Fixed A Moron...