design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

jim beam > wrote in
:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>jim beam > wrote in
>>>>news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeas y.net:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>jim beam > wrote in
>>>>>>news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speake asy.net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>TE Chea wrote:
>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there
>>>>>>>guy. it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a.
>>>>>>>to run about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else
>>>>>>>in the country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car
>>>>>>>sputters to a halt because of ice buildup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and
>>>>>>>forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out
>>>>>>>after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off.
>>>>>>>it was noticeable by two things:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e.
>>>>>>>no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better
>>>>>>>believe it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did
>>>>>>was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque.
>>>>>>If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why
>>>>>>racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make
>>>>>>sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more
>>>>>>power.
>>>>>
>>>>>uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's
>>>>>not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake
>>>>>tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it
>>>>>enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it
>>>>>flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with
>>>>>huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was
>>>>>experiencing.
>>>>>
>>>>>"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor
>>>>>density differences made by a few degrees of ambient air
>>>>>temperature.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air
>>>>>>>intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance
>>>>>>>dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but
>>>>>>>somehow i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is
>>>>>>>not for performance, it's just for show...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench
>>>>and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams
>>>>and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered
>>>>vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest
>>>>torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included
>>>>their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect
>>>>of intake air temperature WRT making power.
>>>
>>>i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor
>>>into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature
>>>between the two?
>>
>>
>> They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's
>> own sensors.
>
> great! what were they?
>
>>
>>>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say
>>>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has.
>>>without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging
>>>effect differences - what i was talking about before. you're right,
>>>temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree
>>>difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air
>>>density] but again, have you ever seen temperature reading
>>>differences quoted? and what difference does it make for a *moving
>>>vehicle* with & without cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you
>>>get the picture... just questions to ask.
>>
>>
>> even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much
>> higher than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained.
>
> you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is
> not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to
> experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold
> itself.

Radiated heat (from the engine) gets absorbed by other things under the
hood,including the underhood air.Thus,it's retained.
>
> i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e.
> downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics
>
> http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...m22000_003.jpg
> http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...blue_motor.jpg
> http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...5/DSC01335.JPG

these are all SHORT RAMs,-not- COLD air intakes(CAI) ;BIG difference.
CAIs are longer,and run down through the wheel well to draw cooler air from
outside the engine compartment.(thru the original intake's passage.)
that is why HT's tests showed only 5-7 HP for short rams and 20 HP for the
CAIs,and torque increases for the CAIs but not the short rams.
Air temp was the big difference.

> http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...amImage384.jpg
> etc.


>
> in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i
> don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal
> department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and
> i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially
> as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all
> these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood
> and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world,

No need to;there's an opening available stock;the Honda/Acura intake is
quite complex,and convoluted.the resonator tank and associated plumbing is
unseen,hidden in the wheelwell in front of the wheel,you have to remove the
wheelwell liner just to see it.(personal experience!)

> but i've never
> seen that on a cai'd civic.

I have seen where some folks made their own ducting and air box to supply
the short ram with cold air.
>
>>
>>
>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> You really should get a copy of the article.
>>
> scan it and send it to tegger.

I don't have the magazine anymore.
I haven't found it on HT's site anymore,either.

>
> again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge
> resonances, not actual air temperature.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Jim Yanik" > wrote
> If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did
> flow bench and dyno
> tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams
> and two cold air
> intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered
> vehicle,then tested each
> intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest torque
> increases.The short rams
> only got 5-7 HP gains. They included their graphs in the
> magazine
> article.They also discussed the effect of intake air
> temperature WRT making
> power.

The following treats the rams but says the CAI modifications
weren't yet available. Maybe you can improve on the search
and turn up your article.

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/t..._s_aem_intake/

Of course as I'm sure you know, Jim Yanik, colder air means
more dense air, which means for the same volume of air flow
into an engine cylinder, more fuel may be admitted. So of
course engine power can increase and substantially. (OTOH,
as has been discussed here in the past, this does not
necessarily translate to more overall fuel efficiency for
the car. For one thing, if the air is cooler because of
lower ambient temperature, then the car sees more wind
resistance.) Certain industrial size diesel engines, for
one, have an air cooler built into them to increase power.

Whether these seemingly popular (according to the makers who
have plastered the net with their claims?) aftermarket CAI
devices do anything meaningful is still not clear without
more information. I see the ads claiming up to 15% more
power.

I'm sure this subject is beaten to death on Usenet...

I do not see how leaving the screws loose on the air intake
cover affects air intake temperature in any meaningful way,
though. Maybe Beam has backed off this assertion.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
t...
> his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive load
> on the alternator robbed power...

That one was hard to top, at least without a tinfoil hat.

Mike

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jim beam > wrote in
>>>>>news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakea sy.net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>jim beam > wrote in
>>>>>>>news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speak easy.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>TE Chea wrote:
>>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there
>>>>>>>>guy. it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a.
>>>>>>>>to run about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else
>>>>>>>>in the country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car
>>>>>>>>sputters to a halt because of ice buildup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and
>>>>>>>>forgot to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out
>>>>>>>>after a few hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off.
>>>>>>>>it was noticeable by two things:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e.
>>>>>>>>no intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better
>>>>>>>>believe it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did
>>>>>>>was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque.
>>>>>>>If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why
>>>>>>>racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make
>>>>>>>sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more
>>>>>>>power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's
>>>>>>not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake
>>>>>>tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it
>>>>>>enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it
>>>>>>flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with
>>>>>>huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was
>>>>>>experiencing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor
>>>>>>density differences made by a few degrees of ambient air
>>>>>>temperature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air
>>>>>>>>intakes know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance
>>>>>>>>dynamics and the effect it has on engine air induction, but
>>>>>>>>somehow i doubt most of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is
>>>>>>>>not for performance, it's just for show...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench
>>>>>and dyno tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams
>>>>>and two cold air intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered
>>>>>vehicle,then tested each intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest
>>>>>torque increases.The short rams only got 5-7 HP gains. They included
>>>>>their graphs in the magazine article.They also discussed the effect
>>>>>of intake air temperature WRT making power.
>>>>
>>>>i appreciate what you're saying jim, but did they drop a thermistor
>>>>into the air stream to measure the difference in air temperature
>>>>between the two?
>>>
>>>
>>>They used the OBDII intake air temp measurements read from the ECU's
>>>own sensors.
>>
>>great! what were they?
>>
>>
>>>>i'll be surprised if they did because i can't say
>>>>i've ever seen one of those "dyno graph" articles that ever has.
>>>>without that, they're simply measuring the dynamic air charging
>>>>effect differences - what i was talking about before. you're right,
>>>>temperature /can/ make a difference to power yield [an 80 degree
>>>>difference in air temp gets you roughly 10% difference in air
>>>>density] but again, have you ever seen temperature reading
>>>>differences quoted? and what difference does it make for a *moving
>>>>vehicle* with & without cai? airflow under the hood is, well, you
>>>>get the picture... just questions to ask.
>>>
>>>
>>>even with airflow under the hood,the underhood temerature is much
>>>higher than outside.There's radiated engine heat that is retained.
>>
>>you need to re-phrase that one dude. radiated heat, by definition, is
>>not retained. and a sensor inside the manifold is not going to
>>experience much radiated heat from anything other than the manifold
>>itself.
>
>
> Radiated heat (from the engine) gets absorbed by other things under the
> hood,including the underhood air.Thus,it's retained.

dude, the engine's at 78C. that's warm to the touch, but it's nothing
from a radiant heat standpoint. what you're feeling is convective heat,
primarily wafting around from the [very hot] exhaust and the radiator.

>
>>i think what you mean is that air drawn form under the hood i.e.
>>downwind of the radiator, is warmer, which is true. but in these pics
>>
>>http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...m22000_003.jpg
>>http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/c...blue_motor.jpg
>>http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...5/DSC01335.JPG
>
>
> these are all SHORT RAMs,-not- COLD air intakes(CAI)

they're all /sold/ as cai's:

http://www.car-stuff.com/performance...e=15&category=

like every single item on that page.

> ;BIG difference.
> CAIs are longer,and run down through the wheel well to draw cooler air from
> outside the engine compartment.(thru the original intake's passage.)
> that is why HT's tests showed only 5-7 HP for short rams and 20 HP for the
> CAIs,and torque increases for the CAIs but not the short rams.
> Air temp was the big difference.

respectfully, i disagree. the effect being observed is dynamic
supercharging. otherwise the length of the tube would make no
difference, it would be purely air temp. seriously jim, the effect of
airflow dynamics are huge. you're right, a lower air temp helps,
sometimes by a noticeable amount, but it's chicken feed compared to a
mismatch between a given intake tube's resonance and rpm's. that's why
you'll find variable-geometry intake manifold systems on a fair number
of modern un-turboed cars, but air cooling only on turbos where air
temps can increase significantly. and even then, intercoolers are more
to help reduce detonation effects of inducing hot air than they are to
increase air density.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variabl...ntake_Manifold

>
>
>>http://www.clubcivic.com/gallery/fil...amImage384.jpg
>>etc.
>
>
>
>>in all these cases, the cai's are /all/ downwind of the radiator, so i
>>don't see what the "cold air intake" is achieving in the thermal
>>department, unless it's on a static vehicle with the hood open. and
>>i'd love to see numbers on air temp for a /moving/ vehicle, especially
>>as oem intakes all draw air from up front of the radiator. if all
>>these kiddiez were serious, they'd cut through the fender and/or hood
>>and put a real cold air scoop to the outside world,
>
>
> No need to;there's an opening available stock;the Honda/Acura intake is
> quite complex,and convoluted.the resonator tank and associated plumbing is
> unseen,hidden in the wheelwell in front of the wheel,you have to remove the
> wheelwell liner just to see it.(personal experience!)

i know about the resonator. my first civic had had it's resonator
removed for some reason i never figured out. performance sucked until i
replaced it.
>
>
>>but i've never
>>seen that on a cai'd civic.
>
>
> I have seen where some folks made their own ducting and air box to supply
> the short ram with cold air.

sure. and integras take air in from under the front bumper. but that's
still better than the products sold as "cai" because they have nothing
to do with cold air!

>
>>>
>>>>>It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>You really should get a copy of the article.
>>>
>>
>>scan it and send it to tegger.
>
>
> I don't have the magazine anymore.
> I haven't found it on HT's site anymore,either.

well, i looked online and finding any article that mentions actual air
temp readings, let alone one from a moving vehicle, takes /way/ more
patience than i've got.

>
>
>>again, i see dyno differences mostly attributable to air charge
>>resonances, not actual air temperature.
>
>
>
>

jim beam wrote:
> Steve Mackie wrote:
>
>>> | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine.
>>> My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow
>>> design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will
>>> let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled
>>> engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can
>>> help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps.
>>
>> You've got to be f***in kidding me.
>>
>> Plonk.
>>
>> Steve
>>
> his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive
> load on the alternator robbed power...

LOf*ingL! I'm going to save this one!

Anyone give me odds he also drains the windshield washer to reduce
weight? Doesn't mount the front plate (if his state issues 2)?

> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:59:19 +0800, "TE Chea" > wrote:
>
>
>> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
>>rocker cover's breather hose
>>http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf9d1.gif
>>, this heated air is then sucked through PCV valve & into intake
>>manifold.chamber [ii] rubber-hosed into bottom of throttle body
>>http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf4a6.gif
>>, & heat flows into the air passing throttle.
>> Both designs make air intake & cylinder head unduly hot
>>www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/ : whenever intake manifold
>>heats up ( esp in long trips ), torque drops & warm-starts are difficult
>>, both because hot air cannot expand much when heated. Ideal
>>temperature of air to receive injectors' spray of petrol is just 40°C =
>>104°F ( www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] ).
>>Intake manifold where injectors spray petrol ( near cylinder head ) &
>>chamber already get heat from manifold's contact with cylinder head,
>>EAC & Fast Idle valves ( both heated by * ), certainly do not need
>>more heat. If designer wanted manifold to heat up fast, then throttle
>>body must have a thermostat to stop * inflow when throttle is heated
>>to 40°C. These 2 designs make steep hill climbing slow & weak ; *
>>& air intake will both be @ their hottest, & torque will be lowest (
>>ironically, when torque is needed most ).
>> After I disabled these 2 designs, in 28°C air, [i] chamber, manifold
>>& cylinder head are cooler, benefits are many e.g. 1 can use ( cheaper
>>) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not
>>drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.

Does anyone know Chea's country of origin ("petrol", "felt", etc.)?

And does he have a pet?

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:18:46 -0400, Sparky Spartacus
> wrote:

>jim beam wrote:
>> Steve Mackie wrote:
>>
>>>> | front wheels' hub caps too can be removed, to help cool engine.
>>>> My front wheels used to be too hot to touch, caused by this * flow
>>>> design flaw & cheapo exhaust manifold. Removal of hub cap will
>>>> let drive shaft & engine cool faster, unnecessary for well cooled
>>>> engines, but for desparate users with severe overheating, this can
>>>> help a bit, esp on original steel wheels with 15½" Ø plastic caps.
>>>
>>> You've got to be f***in kidding me.
>>>
>>> Plonk.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> his best one was about disconnecting the clock because the excessive
>> load on the alternator robbed power...
>
>LOf*ingL! I'm going to save this one!
>
>Anyone give me odds he also drains the windshield washer to reduce
>weight? Doesn't mount the front plate (if his state issues 2)?


I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects I find with
my Honda.

1. Exhaust system is made of metal instead of carbon fibre. Not only
is it heavier and more prone to rust but we need more carbon fibre in
our diet.

2. Spring loaded lid on coin box is always pushing backward against
car which slow it down and cause the battery to go dead. I turned
mine around and now it pushes the car forward and it is a lot faster.
Maserati coin box covers are all designed this way.

3. My battery dies all the time because I leave the lights on and the
car just chimes instead saying "Hey you ****ing moron, you left the
lights on again." This technology was standard in the 1980 LeBaron.

4. I busted the headlights with a hammer and now the battery doesn't
run down but the annoying chime still sounds. Honda should make cars
with no headlights just like Mercedes started doing a hundred years
ago.

5. The cabin has a poor layout. Too much Ying, not enough Yang. I
paid a Feng Shui master to adjust the Chi and now the gas milage is
much better. Also car is more at peace with the road.

"Tee Hee Chia Pet" > wrote
> I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects
> I find with
> my Honda.
>
> 1. Exhaust system is made of metal instead of carbon
> fibre. Not only
> is it heavier and more prone to rust but we need more
> carbon fibre in
> our diet.
>
> 2. Spring loaded lid on coin box is always pushing
> backward against
> car which slow it down and cause the battery to go dead.
> I turned
> mine around and now it pushes the car forward and it is a
> lot faster.
> Maserati coin box covers are all designed this way.
>
> 3. My battery dies all the time because I leave the
> lights on and the
> car just chimes instead saying "Hey you ****ing moron, you
> left the
> lights on again." This technology was standard in the
> 1980 LeBaron.
>
> 4. I busted the headlights with a hammer and now the
> battery doesn't
> run down but the annoying chime still sounds. Honda
> should make cars
> with no headlights just like Mercedes started doing a
> hundred years
> ago.
>
> 5. The cabin has a poor layout. Too much Ying, not
> enough Yang. I
> paid a Feng Shui master to adjust the Chi and now the gas
> milage is
> much better. Also car is more at peace with the road.

Pretty good, T.

:-)

Tee Hee Chia Pet wrote:

> I am Tee Hee Chia Pet and I now give you five more defects I find with
> my Honda.
>
> 1. Exhaust system is made of metal instead of carbon fibre. Not only
> is it heavier and more prone to rust but we need more carbon fibre in
> our diet.
>
> 2. Spring loaded lid on coin box is always pushing backward against
> car which slow it down and cause the battery to go dead. I turned
> mine around and now it pushes the car forward and it is a lot faster.
> Maserati coin box covers are all designed this way.
>
> 3. My battery dies all the time because I leave the lights on and the
> car just chimes instead saying "Hey you ****ing moron, you left the
> lights on again." This technology was standard in the 1980 LeBaron.
>
> 4. I busted the headlights with a hammer and now the battery doesn't
> run down but the annoying chime still sounds. Honda should make cars
> with no headlights just like Mercedes started doing a hundred years
> ago.
>
> 5. The cabin has a poor layout. Too much Ying, not enough Yang. I
> paid a Feng Shui master to adjust the Chi and now the gas milage is
> much better. Also car is more at peace with the road.


Cha-cha-cha-CHIA!!

LOL!

#2 is a real sleeper. I bet only a select few race teams have
discovered the secret. THANKS!!

#3 Hell, I almost wish the *$%^ car would curse me, rather than jangle
my nerves with the constant, maddening, DING-DING-DING!!! The facility
therapist says I should avoid stressful noises, and stop playing with
knives....

#5 Try adding several cats. The Yowl will neutralize any Ying/Yang
imbalance. Also, people will think you have some exotic, high
performance parts installed.

-Greg (Looking around for occasional Honda test dummy Howard Lester.
He's always good for a one liner or two or three.)