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Engine overheating and No heat inside the car?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 17th 05, 12:43 AM
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Default Engine overheating and No heat inside the car?

I drive a '00 Jetta.
On my drive home from work one cold February night, I looked at the
dash to learn the coolant was overheating. Many people would think the
temperature gauge translates to the engine overheating, but that's not
neccessarily the case. I cranked the heat inside the car to hopefully
remedy the situation, only to find cold air coming from the vents.
Now I'm no mechanic, but I know how to handle a wrench, and hoping it
was the cheapest (and easiest) thing that could possibly be causing the
problem....thermostat. Took out the thermostat out of the car and
submerged it in a pot of hot water..this works just fine (water boils
212 F). My thermostat is supposed to open in the neighborhood of 180
(it'll say right on it) and it was fully open before the water was to a
boil, so I was confident that wasn't the problem. My wallet began to
whimper.
I can't drive my kid around in the cold, so I'm forced to immediately
take it to a shop.
Told them my story...they vacuumed out the entire cooling system and
filled it to the brim so there were to air pockets. They drove it for
about 10 minutes...had heat in the car for about 5. Same symptoms came
back. Let it cool back at the shop...discover air pockets have formed
and the only explanation is that combustion gas (when and where the
gasoline is actually ignited and the explosions occur) which,
infortunately means the head gasket has failed (or blown, as it's
known). <--hey that rhymes!!
In replacing that, I had the water pump replaced as well. My car's got
98,000 miles, so it's probably a good idea to do it now.
Timing belt was also stretched out pretty good, so they replaced that
as well.
TOTAL BILL : little over a grand
I'm not complaining - this car has ran great the entire time I've had
it and these repairs had to be expected once you're knocking on 100K
miles.
Car idles and drives even smoother now, don't have the breathing noise
that it had before the repairs.

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  #2  
Old February 17th 05, 03:07 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default

We have a Jetta. Sorry to disagree but you should complain. Our other
car is a 98 Saturn with over 150,000, no engine problems and little
money spent on repairs. Previous cars have been about the same, even
our Neon went over 125,000 with no major problems except the dumb fan
always stopped every few years due to rust (just cleaned it out). Got
rid of it when I hit a large chunk of ice and destroyed the oil pan.
Car drove over 17 miles from work to home, red light came on just as I
got home. Next day drove it onto a flatbed, no trouble.

I'm not complaining either BUT, these cars are rough on the wallet.
They are however great in crashes!!!

Good luck,
Dermott

  #3  
Old February 17th 05, 03:54 AM
Woodchuck
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Posts: n/a
Default

I bet if you replaced the water pump first then rechecked you wouldn't have
needed a headgasket. Unless you continued to drive the car after the no
heat/overheat issue started. If you were the first owner then it would have
all been covered under warranty!


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I drive a '00 Jetta.
> On my drive home from work one cold February night, I looked at the
> dash to learn the coolant was overheating. Many people would think the
> temperature gauge translates to the engine overheating, but that's not
> neccessarily the case. I cranked the heat inside the car to hopefully
> remedy the situation, only to find cold air coming from the vents.
> Now I'm no mechanic, but I know how to handle a wrench, and hoping it
> was the cheapest (and easiest) thing that could possibly be causing the
> problem....thermostat. Took out the thermostat out of the car and
> submerged it in a pot of hot water..this works just fine (water boils
> 212 F). My thermostat is supposed to open in the neighborhood of 180
> (it'll say right on it) and it was fully open before the water was to a
> boil, so I was confident that wasn't the problem. My wallet began to
> whimper.
> I can't drive my kid around in the cold, so I'm forced to immediately
> take it to a shop.
> Told them my story...they vacuumed out the entire cooling system and
> filled it to the brim so there were to air pockets. They drove it for
> about 10 minutes...had heat in the car for about 5. Same symptoms came
> back. Let it cool back at the shop...discover air pockets have formed
> and the only explanation is that combustion gas (when and where the
> gasoline is actually ignited and the explosions occur) which,
> infortunately means the head gasket has failed (or blown, as it's
> known). <--hey that rhymes!!
> In replacing that, I had the water pump replaced as well. My car's got
> 98,000 miles, so it's probably a good idea to do it now.
> Timing belt was also stretched out pretty good, so they replaced that
> as well.
> TOTAL BILL : little over a grand
> I'm not complaining - this car has ran great the entire time I've had
> it and these repairs had to be expected once you're knocking on 100K
> miles.
> Car idles and drives even smoother now, don't have the breathing noise
> that it had before the repairs.
>




  #4  
Old February 18th 05, 04:38 PM
David
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Woodchuck,
On another post you mentioned that the MK IV has a very good reputation with
head gaskets.
Do you think in this case below that it was a water pump not the gasket?
I hate these new 'stretch' style head bolts and usually replace them with
'raceware' studs.
Would like to hear your opinion on this and head gaskets in general and
anything that the
user can do to keep them from leaking.
thanks


--
David

nosmo86(At)hotmail(Dot)com


"Woodchuck" > wrote in message
...
>I bet if you replaced the water pump first then rechecked you wouldn't have
>needed a headgasket. Unless you continued to drive the car after the no
>heat/overheat issue started. If you were the first owner then it would have
>all been covered under warranty!
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>I drive a '00 Jetta.
>> On my drive home from work one cold February night, I looked at the
>> dash to learn the coolant was overheating. Many people would think the
>> temperature gauge translates to the engine overheating, but that's not
>> neccessarily the case. I cranked the heat inside the car to hopefully
>> remedy the situation, only to find cold air coming from the vents.
>> Now I'm no mechanic, but I know how to handle a wrench, and hoping it
>> was the cheapest (and easiest) thing that could possibly be causing the
>> problem....thermostat. Took out the thermostat out of the car and
>> submerged it in a pot of hot water..this works just fine (water boils
>> 212 F). My thermostat is supposed to open in the neighborhood of 180
>> (it'll say right on it) and it was fully open before the water was to a
>> boil, so I was confident that wasn't the problem. My wallet began to
>> whimper.
>> I can't drive my kid around in the cold, so I'm forced to immediately
>> take it to a shop.
>> Told them my story...they vacuumed out the entire cooling system and
>> filled it to the brim so there were to air pockets. They drove it for
>> about 10 minutes...had heat in the car for about 5. Same symptoms came
>> back. Let it cool back at the shop...discover air pockets have formed
>> and the only explanation is that combustion gas (when and where the
>> gasoline is actually ignited and the explosions occur) which,
>> infortunately means the head gasket has failed (or blown, as it's
>> known). <--hey that rhymes!!
>> In replacing that, I had the water pump replaced as well. My car's got
>> 98,000 miles, so it's probably a good idea to do it now.
>> Timing belt was also stretched out pretty good, so they replaced that
>> as well.
>> TOTAL BILL : little over a grand
>> I'm not complaining - this car has ran great the entire time I've had
>> it and these repairs had to be expected once you're knocking on 100K
>> miles.
>> Car idles and drives even smoother now, don't have the breathing noise
>> that it had before the repairs.
>>

>
>
>


  #5  
Old February 19th 05, 12:53 AM
Woodchuck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yes, I do believe that it was only in need of the water pump. We see it all
the time that owners drive the cars to the shop overheating and no coolant
left in the block. We even seen the plastic coolant outlets melted off the
heads and once the water pump and necks are replaced no head gasket is
needed. VW started using the multi-layer metal type head gaskets around 94
or so along with Audi. I think this type of gasket out lasts the old
composite 10,000 to one or more. After all if it doesn't fail then warranty
costs are lower for VW. When stretch bolts were first used I couldn't
understand how a bolt could live with being torqued to "x" ft/lbs and then
another 1/4 or 1/2 turn. The thinking the stretch bolt is one it's torqued
to spec and then given that 1/4 or 1/2 turn it's at it's max holding power.
all other car/truck & marine companies are using stretch bolts. At our shop
we have an employee with a 83 Rabbit which has a Corrado engine modified
which was dynoed at 250hp. This engine has a aftermarket belt driven roots
supercharger with 20+lbs of boost and the engine uses stock VW headbolts and
hasn't been apart in 2 years. Keeping the 5 speed together is another story.

"David" > wrote in message
news:NZnRd.421616$Xk.192972@pd7tw3no...
> Woodchuck,
> On another post you mentioned that the MK IV has a very good reputation
> with head gaskets.
> Do you think in this case below that it was a water pump not the gasket?
> I hate these new 'stretch' style head bolts and usually replace them with
> 'raceware' studs.
> Would like to hear your opinion on this and head gaskets in general and
> anything that the
> user can do to keep them from leaking.
> thanks
>
>
> --
> David
>
> nosmo86(At)hotmail(Dot)com
>
>
> "Woodchuck" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I bet if you replaced the water pump first then rechecked you wouldn't
>>have needed a headgasket. Unless you continued to drive the car after the
>>no heat/overheat issue started. If you were the first owner then it would
>>have all been covered under warranty!
>>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>I drive a '00 Jetta.
>>> On my drive home from work one cold February night, I looked at the
>>> dash to learn the coolant was overheating. Many people would think the
>>> temperature gauge translates to the engine overheating, but that's not
>>> neccessarily the case. I cranked the heat inside the car to hopefully
>>> remedy the situation, only to find cold air coming from the vents.
>>> Now I'm no mechanic, but I know how to handle a wrench, and hoping it
>>> was the cheapest (and easiest) thing that could possibly be causing the
>>> problem....thermostat. Took out the thermostat out of the car and
>>> submerged it in a pot of hot water..this works just fine (water boils
>>> 212 F). My thermostat is supposed to open in the neighborhood of 180
>>> (it'll say right on it) and it was fully open before the water was to a
>>> boil, so I was confident that wasn't the problem. My wallet began to
>>> whimper.
>>> I can't drive my kid around in the cold, so I'm forced to immediately
>>> take it to a shop.
>>> Told them my story...they vacuumed out the entire cooling system and
>>> filled it to the brim so there were to air pockets. They drove it for
>>> about 10 minutes...had heat in the car for about 5. Same symptoms came
>>> back. Let it cool back at the shop...discover air pockets have formed
>>> and the only explanation is that combustion gas (when and where the
>>> gasoline is actually ignited and the explosions occur) which,
>>> infortunately means the head gasket has failed (or blown, as it's
>>> known). <--hey that rhymes!!
>>> In replacing that, I had the water pump replaced as well. My car's got
>>> 98,000 miles, so it's probably a good idea to do it now.
>>> Timing belt was also stretched out pretty good, so they replaced that
>>> as well.
>>> TOTAL BILL : little over a grand
>>> I'm not complaining - this car has ran great the entire time I've had
>>> it and these repairs had to be expected once you're knocking on 100K
>>> miles.
>>> Car idles and drives even smoother now, don't have the breathing noise
>>> that it had before the repairs.
>>>

>>
>>
>>

>



  #6  
Old February 21st 05, 12:39 AM
David
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for the answer.
~d


"Woodchuck" > wrote in message
erver.com...
> Yes, I do believe that it was only in need of the water pump. We see it
> all the time that owners drive the cars to the shop overheating and no
> coolant left in the block. We even seen the plastic coolant outlets melted
> off the heads and once the water pump and necks are replaced no head
> gasket is needed. VW started using the multi-layer metal type head
> gaskets around 94 or so along with Audi. I think this type of gasket out
> lasts the old composite 10,000 to one or more. After all if it doesn't
> fail then warranty costs are lower for VW. When stretch bolts were first
> used I couldn't understand how a bolt could live with being torqued to "x"
> ft/lbs and then another 1/4 or 1/2 turn. The thinking the stretch bolt is
> one it's torqued to spec and then given that 1/4 or 1/2 turn it's at it's
> max holding power. all other car/truck & marine companies are using
> stretch bolts. At our shop we have an employee with a 83 Rabbit which has
> a Corrado engine modified which was dynoed at 250hp. This engine has a
> aftermarket belt driven roots supercharger with 20+lbs of boost and the
> engine uses stock VW headbolts and hasn't been apart in 2 years. Keeping
> the 5 speed together is another story.
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> news:NZnRd.421616$Xk.192972@pd7tw3no...
>> Woodchuck,
>> On another post you mentioned that the MK IV has a very good reputation
>> with head gaskets.
>> Do you think in this case below that it was a water pump not the gasket?
>> I hate these new 'stretch' style head bolts and usually replace them with
>> 'raceware' studs.
>> Would like to hear your opinion on this and head gaskets in general and
>> anything that the
>> user can do to keep them from leaking.
>> thanks
>>
>>
>> --
>> David
>>
>> nosmo86(At)hotmail(Dot)com
>>
>>
>> "Woodchuck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I bet if you replaced the water pump first then rechecked you wouldn't
>>>have needed a headgasket. Unless you continued to drive the car after the
>>>no heat/overheat issue started. If you were the first owner then it would
>>>have all been covered under warranty!
>>>
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>>I drive a '00 Jetta.
>>>> On my drive home from work one cold February night, I looked at the
>>>> dash to learn the coolant was overheating. Many people would think the
>>>> temperature gauge translates to the engine overheating, but that's not
>>>> neccessarily the case. I cranked the heat inside the car to hopefully
>>>> remedy the situation, only to find cold air coming from the vents.
>>>> Now I'm no mechanic, but I know how to handle a wrench, and hoping it
>>>> was the cheapest (and easiest) thing that could possibly be causing the
>>>> problem....thermostat. Took out the thermostat out of the car and
>>>> submerged it in a pot of hot water..this works just fine (water boils
>>>> 212 F). My thermostat is supposed to open in the neighborhood of 180
>>>> (it'll say right on it) and it was fully open before the water was to a
>>>> boil, so I was confident that wasn't the problem. My wallet began to
>>>> whimper.
>>>> I can't drive my kid around in the cold, so I'm forced to immediately
>>>> take it to a shop.
>>>> Told them my story...they vacuumed out the entire cooling system and
>>>> filled it to the brim so there were to air pockets. They drove it for
>>>> about 10 minutes...had heat in the car for about 5. Same symptoms came
>>>> back. Let it cool back at the shop...discover air pockets have formed
>>>> and the only explanation is that combustion gas (when and where the
>>>> gasoline is actually ignited and the explosions occur) which,
>>>> infortunately means the head gasket has failed (or blown, as it's
>>>> known). <--hey that rhymes!!
>>>> In replacing that, I had the water pump replaced as well. My car's got
>>>> 98,000 miles, so it's probably a good idea to do it now.
>>>> Timing belt was also stretched out pretty good, so they replaced that
>>>> as well.
>>>> TOTAL BILL : little over a grand
>>>> I'm not complaining - this car has ran great the entire time I've had
>>>> it and these repairs had to be expected once you're knocking on 100K
>>>> miles.
>>>> Car idles and drives even smoother now, don't have the breathing noise
>>>> that it had before the repairs.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>

>
>


  #7  
Old February 27th 05, 03:39 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

David wrote:
> Woodchuck,
> On another post you mentioned that the MK IV has a very good

reputation with
> head gaskets.
> Do you think in this case below that it was a water pump not the

gasket?
> I hate these new 'stretch' style head bolts and usually replace them

with
> 'raceware' studs.
> Would like to hear your opinion on this and head gaskets in general

and
> anything that the
> user can do to keep them from leaking.
> thanks
>


The most important thing you can do to keep the head gasket from
leaking is shut the engine down if the coolant temperature guage goes
high. Especially if the heater is also blowing cold.

Yes, sometimes the guage is wrong and the engine isn't actually
overheating, but yours probably was. And if you had stopped immediately
when you saw the high engine temp and no heat, your gasket might have
survived. When the guage says it's overheating, it's best to stop and
believe the guage until you have actually verified that the guage is
wrong.

A common failure mode with VW water pumps is that the impeller/rotor
separates from the shaft. So there's not necessarily leakage from the
pump, and there's not any bearing noise or other outward signs, but it
just doesn't pump the coolant any more. No movement in the coolant
means:

* no hot air from the heater (big clue)
* very little coolant flow through the engine, resulting in very high
temperature showing on the guage (another big clue)
* If you keep driving it, the water can boil away and when there's
nothing in the coolant passage that the guage sender is in, engine temp
as indicated by the guage will fall quickly to near air temperature.

As for head bolts, I've had very few problems with the stock bolts,
even on the diesels. As long as the proper procedures (from the latest
Bentley edition that applies to the engine) are followed installing
them, the stock bolts seem to be more than adequate.

Since I mentioned diesels, the old 1.6D's and 1.6TD's are harder on the
bolts, and they have different procedures for installation and
tightening, including an additional tightening at 1,000 miles after
installation. That additional tightening step is critical to reliable
operation, and expect problems if you skip it on the diesel engine. The
1,000 mile check/re-tighten step is a diesel only thing, though, don't
worry about it on gas engines.

My usual maintenance schedule is to replace the timing belt, seals
(cam, intermediate shaft and crank seals), accessory belts, water pump
and all coolant hoses every 60,000 miles. I also replace the passenger
side engine mount on the A1 cars (Pre-1984 cars plus Scirocco and
Cabriolet through 1992). On a gas engine (8 valve only), with
inspection of the timing belt to verify that it's not stretched or
damaged, you can stretch that interval out to about 90,000 miles
without much risk. Just check the belt every oil change or two, and if
it shows signs of excessive wear or stretching, replace it.

And water pumps are one of only 3 or 4 parts that I actually go to a
$tealership to buy. I've never had really good luck with rebuilt water
pumps (on any car), so I always get new ones. But with the VW's, I've
had enough problems with "new" aftermarket pumps that it's no longer a
risk I want to deal with.

--
Racer X

1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
1992 Mazda Miata (looks OK considering it's been hit by an 18 wheeler)
1994 Caravan (OK, maybe it's a keeper, but I still want a VW Caddy)
1995 Ford Escort (may it rest in pieces)
1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
1988 Mazda RX-7 (maybe for sale, make offer)
1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])

 




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