Buying & mounting new tires tomorrow (two questions)

I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
questions:

1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
(Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
the valve stem?)

The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount tires
correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the tires.


2. Why isn't there a DRY TRACTION rating for tires?

(There is a wet traction rating, e.g., AA is the only number I buy, but why
isn't there a dry traction rating anyway? It's important. And, it would be
just as easy to measure as wet traction.)

Thanks for any advice you can provide on these two basic questions.

On 08/30/2011 10:02 PM, SF Man wrote:
> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
> questions:
>
> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
> the valve stem?)

dags. easy.

and when you figure it out, you can then go ahead and ignore it. as
soon as a wheel is used and has mounted a few curbs, even if there's no
apparent damage, the whole alignment equation changes, so it's pretty
much a pointless exercise. which is why you'll find some of the smarter
manufacturers don't bother with it. [and of course, if you make a good
tire in the first place, you're close to balanced anyway.]


>
> The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount tires
> correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the tires.
>
>
> 2. Why isn't there a DRY TRACTION rating for tires?
>
> (There is a wet traction rating, e.g., AA is the only number I buy, but why
> isn't there a dry traction rating anyway? It's important. And, it would be
> just as easy to measure as wet traction.)

imo, traction ratings are utter b.s. and are no basis on which to base a
buying decision. i had a set of aa-rated dunlop sports on one of my
cars. even new, they hydroplaned so ridiculously bad in the wet, you
couldn't do much more than 50 if there was actual rain [as opposed to
just a wet surface].

the only brand [but not all models of] tire i've ever had that inspired
confidence both new and worn, wet or dry, is michelin. other tires are
better dry. others are better wet when new. but nothing in my
experience comes close to acceptable wet or dry, all stages of the tires
[legal] life. [disclaimer: i don't "do" snow.]


>
> Thanks for any advice you can provide on these two basic questions.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

"SF Man" > wrote in message
...
> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
> questions:
>
> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
> the valve stem?)
>

Here's an explanation from Bridgestone:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf

On 08/31/2011 01:56 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 08/30/2011 10:02 PM, SF Man wrote:
>> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
>> questions:
>>
>> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
>> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
>> the valve stem?)
>
> dags. easy.
>
> and when you figure it out, you can then go ahead and ignore it. as soon
> as a wheel is used and has mounted a few curbs, even if there's no
> apparent damage, the whole alignment equation changes, so it's pretty
> much a pointless exercise. which is why you'll find some of the smarter
> manufacturers don't bother with it. [and of course, if you make a good
> tire in the first place, you're close to balanced anyway.]

Agreed, it's all in how it drives. If the tire guy in conscientious and
has a good road force balancer what he'll do is mount it with the dots
oriented right as a starting point and then break loose/rotate the tire
to fine tune it. So the dots may not be in the right place, even if the
guy is doing it right.

That said, I think that most tire mounters just put the tire on any old
way (at least they usually get the rotation direction correct) and then
balance them the best they can and send you out the door.

>>
>> The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount
>> tires
>> correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the tires.
>>
>>
>> 2. Why isn't there a DRY TRACTION rating for tires?
>>
>> (There is a wet traction rating, e.g., AA is the only number I buy,
>> but why
>> isn't there a dry traction rating anyway? It's important. And, it
>> would be
>> just as easy to measure as wet traction.)
>
> imo, traction ratings are utter b.s. and are no basis on which to base a
> buying decision. i had a set of aa-rated dunlop sports on one of my
> cars. even new, they hydroplaned so ridiculously bad in the wet, you
> couldn't do much more than 50 if there was actual rain [as opposed to
> just a wet surface].
>
> the only brand [but not all models of] tire i've ever had that inspired
> confidence both new and worn, wet or dry, is michelin. other tires are
> better dry. others are better wet when new. but nothing in my experience
> comes close to acceptable wet or dry, all stages of the tires [legal]
> life. [disclaimer: i don't "do" snow.]

I agree w/ Michelins being excellent; another tire I've had good
experiences with is the Yokohama AVS ES100, Michelin having discontinued
tires to fit my old 944. Unfortunately the Yokohamas suck worse than
you could possibly imagine in the snow, but they aren't even M&S rated,
so they never pretended to be an all-season tire. I had a set of Dunlop
Winter Sports for that, and those worked great.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

SF Man > wrote in
:

> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
> questions:
>
> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side
> of the valve stem?)
>
> The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount
> tires correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the
> tires.


If you have to tell them how to mount tires, you shouldn't be going to
them.

<http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/Balancing.htm>

These dots are used for mounting the tires so they spin true. Tires mounted
to spin true will not wobble, squirm, or hop at the tread when they are
spun. True-mounting is 100% critical to proper balancing technique, and few
tires monkeys know to do that. You cannot balance the tires until they spin
true.

But even before that, the monkey needs to spin the wheel on its own, and to
spin it in two opposing orientations on the spindle, before he knows where
the high-spot and heavy spot of the wheel are. He needs to know this
information when mounting the tire.

And the tire dots are used as a STARTING point. You may need to rotate the
tire from the starting point to get it to spin true.

You can ask your prospective supplier these questions:
1) Do they use the yellow and red dots on the tire?
2) Do they use the dot on the wheel, if they can find it?
3) Do they use proper tire-mounting paste?
4) Do they check to make sure the tire spins perfectly true on the wheel
(no wobble, squirm, or hop at the tread) before they balance it?
5) Do they phase-mark the tire and wheel before you leave, and make sure
you understand to avoid hard acceleration and braking for a few days to
allow the tire to "set"?

If you get a "huh?", or a "we don't do that", or an "it's not necessary",
walk out of there.


--
Tegger

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:02:42 -0700, SF Man >
wrote:

>I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
>questions:
>
>1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
>(Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
>the valve stem?)
>
>The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount tires
>correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the tires.
>
>
>2. Why isn't there a DRY TRACTION rating for tires?
>
>(There is a wet traction rating, e.g., AA is the only number I buy, but why
>isn't there a dry traction rating anyway? It's important. And, it would be
>just as easy to measure as wet traction.)
>
>Thanks for any advice you can provide on these two basic questions.

Make sure the tire shop has a Hunter Force Balance machine.
Many shops do. I think it's standard at Just Tire shops.
Then forget about the dots. Meaningless when force balanced.
For the rest I've had good luck looking at the tire reviews on Tire
Rack.
If there are enough reviews for the tires you're looking for, and on
your car.
Without a lot of reviews giving decent info it's a crap shoot.

--Vic

On 08/31/2011 06:40 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:02:42 -0700, SF >
> wrote:
>
>> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
>> questions:
>>
>> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
>> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side of
>> the valve stem?)
>>
>> The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount tires
>> correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the tires.
>>
>>
>> 2. Why isn't there a DRY TRACTION rating for tires?
>>
>> (There is a wet traction rating, e.g., AA is the only number I buy, but why
>> isn't there a dry traction rating anyway? It's important. And, it would be
>> just as easy to measure as wet traction.)
>>
>> Thanks for any advice you can provide on these two basic questions.
>
> Make sure the tire shop has a Hunter Force Balance machine.
> Many shops do.

great machine. almost impossible to mess up a balance with that thing.


> I think it's standard at Just Tire shops.
> Then forget about the dots. Meaningless when force balanced.

indeed.


> For the rest I've had good luck looking at the tire reviews on Tire
> Rack.
> If there are enough reviews

make that "customer reviews who have driven them for a few thousand miles"


> for the tires you're looking for, and on
> your car.
> Without a lot of reviews giving decent info it's a crap shoot.
>
> --Vic

you can't rely on tire rack's system ratings. i bought a set of
continentals that were highly rated per their star system, and they were
perhaps the worst tires i've ever driven. they were kinda-sorta ok in
the wet when brand new, but a few thousand miles in they were skate
shoes, and dry traction? practically non-existent. my 89 civic is one
of the better cornering cars on the road, and certainly tire width for
tire width. on the twisties, with decent standard width tires, she'll
not blink at bends that have much more expensive cars with much wider
tires braking to approach. with the continentals, she couldn't keep up
with other cars on the approach, and once you were in, she'd often crab
sideways because they'd start to slide. and straight line braking? if
you locked a tire, traction dropped to almost zero. i've never known
that on a tire before. on all tires, sliding reduces stopping ability,
but other tires are not the greased banana skins the continentals were.
very misleading tire rack rating.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 08/31/2011 05:59 AM, Tegger wrote:
> SF > wrote in
> :
>
>> I'm buying and mounting tires tomorrow and would like advice on two
>> questions:
>>
>> 1. Where does that red or yellow dot go when mounting?
>> (Does it go next to the valve stem or does it go on the opposite side
>> of the valve stem?)
>>
>> The reason I ask now is that the tire guys don't always care to mount
>> tires correctly - so I want to tell them the right way to mount the
>> tires.
>
>
> If you have to tell them how to mount tires, you shouldn't be going to
> them.
>
> <http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/Balancing.htm>
>
> These dots are used for mounting the tires so they spin true. Tires mounted
> to spin true will not wobble, squirm, or hop at the tread when they are
> spun. True-mounting is 100% critical to proper balancing technique, and few
> tires monkeys know to do that. You cannot balance the tires until they spin
> true.
>
> But even before that, the monkey needs to spin the wheel on its own, and to
> spin it in two opposing orientations on the spindle, before he knows where
> the high-spot and heavy spot of the wheel are. He needs to know this
> information when mounting the tire.
>
> And the tire dots are used as a STARTING point. You may need to rotate the
> tire from the starting point to get it to spin true.

tire dots are irrelevant if the wheel's balance points are not known.
if the operator identifies the balance of the un-tired wheel, only then
can the tire dots be aligned to anything.


>
> You can ask your prospective supplier these questions:
> 1) Do they use the yellow and red dots on the tire?

some tire manufacturers don't use dots. michelin for example. and
michelin /know/ tires.


> 2) Do they use the dot on the wheel, if they can find it?

they shouldn't even /look/ for a dot on the wheel - completely
unreliable unless the wheel is brand new. the wheel should be spun and
its balance assessed entirely independently.


> 3) Do they use proper tire-mounting paste?
> 4) Do they check to make sure the tire spins perfectly true on the wheel
> (no wobble, squirm, or hop at the tread) before they balance it?
> 5) Do they phase-mark the tire and wheel before you leave, and make sure
> you understand to avoid hard acceleration and braking for a few days to
> allow the tire to "set"?

if a tire is that bad, it should be mounted, inflated, and balanced a
couple of days later because any initial balance will change.

>
> If you get a "huh?", or a "we don't do that", or an "it's not necessary",
> walk out of there.

if you go to a decent shop, with decent equipment, and you're buying
decent tires, you can forget worrying about this stuff. and if you're
trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, no amount of "dot
alignment" will help you. garbage tires are garbage tires. period.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:35:27 -0700, jim beam > wrote:

>On 08/31/2011 06:40 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

>
>> For the rest I've had good luck looking at the tire reviews on Tire
>> Rack.
>> If there are enough reviews
>
>make that "customer reviews who have driven them for a few thousand miles"
>

Exactly. You need some thorough customer reviews you can trust.
Once you find a tire with a reviewer that has the tire on your car or
similar enough, click on the "more tire reviews for this vehicle."
That opens up a range of different brand tire reviews for your car.
You just end up winnowing them down. Takes a while.
It's worked for me, and I don't know where else you can get this kind
of "real" experience.
Judging what reviews to trust might trip some up.
And then you find some tires discontinued so you do it again.

>
>> for the tires you're looking for, and on
>> your car.
>> Without a lot of reviews giving decent info it's a crap shoot.
>>
>
>you can't rely on tire rack's system ratings. i bought a set of
>continentals that were highly rated per their star system, and they were
>perhaps the worst tires i've ever driven. they were kinda-sorta ok in
>the wet when brand new, but a few thousand miles in they were skate
>shoes, and dry traction? practically non-existent. my 89 civic is one
>of the better cornering cars on the road, and certainly tire width for
>tire width. on the twisties, with decent standard width tires, she'll
>not blink at bends that have much more expensive cars with much wider
>tires braking to approach. with the continentals, she couldn't keep up
>with other cars on the approach, and once you were in, she'd often crab
>sideways because they'd start to slide. and straight line braking? if
>you locked a tire, traction dropped to almost zero. i've never known
>that on a tire before. on all tires, sliding reduces stopping ability,
>but other tires are not the greased banana skins the continentals were.
> very misleading tire rack rating.

I never paid any attention to the star rating, just the reviews.
Seen a lot of mention of cornering, traction, noise, wear.
I favor traction, noise, and wear in that order.
Fast cornering isn't my style.

--Vic

--Vic

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 02:38:53 -0500, SRN wrote:

> http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/publications/
> ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf

Very interesting!

"if the tire has a red dot, ignore the yellow dot.
Then, if you have a steel wheel, look for the low point
dimple on the wheel, and mount the tire with the
red dot next to the low point dimple.
If the wheel is aluminum, or if it¢s steel, but has no
low point dimple, mount the tire with the red dot
next to the valve stem"

"Regardless of the type of wheel, if there is no red dot,
mount the tire with the yellow dot next to the valve stem."

That pretty much explains it!

Thanks for digging that up.

I wonder how many people know this?