How Not To Save Detroit

In article >,
"krp" > wrote:

> "Alan Baker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "krp" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Alan Baker" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Really? Let's see you are uptown, your wife is stranded at a
> >> >> >> >> hospital.
> >> >> >> >> What DO YOU DO Mr. Malden? I suppose just about the same thing
> >> >> >> >> you'd
> >> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> >> done if your Model T ran out of gas and you were nowhere near a
> >> >> >> >> gas
> >> >> >> >> station.
> >> >> >> >> You'd call a cab. But it doesn't have to be that way. Battery
> >> >> >> >> packs
> >> >> >> >> CAN
> >> >> >> >> BE
> >> >> >> >> plug and play. And while 40 mile range was the case 15 years
> >> >> >> >> ago,
> >> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> NOT
> >> >> >> >> today.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Sorry, but you're simply ignoring the real limitations of the far
> >> >> >> > more
> >> >> >> > limited range and slow re-"fueling" speed of electric vehicles as
> >> >> >> > compared to IC vehicles.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > My Miata easily goes 400km on a tank and it takes so little time
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > re-fill that I never need to consider whether or not to fill up.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If there's an emergency that requires me to drive 400km all of a
> >> >> >> > sudden,
> >> >> >> > filling it takes only a few minutes.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> True in many points, however the Eliica has a range of 360km.
> >> >> >> Close
> >> >> >> enough. True the present batteries require 45 minutes to charge,
> >> >> >> however,
> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> manufacturers could ever get their crap together like TV
> >> >> >> manufacturers,
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> make a standard battery back that was made for quick replacement,
> >> >> >> then
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> could go to a service station, exchange your batteries for a
> >> >> >> charged
> >> >> >> pack
> >> >> >> and go in 5 minutes. Knowing car companies it would require
> >> >> >> legislation
> >> >> >> mandating a standard. Batteries are improving exponentially. Some
> >> >> >> plans
> >> >> >> include solar recharging. The car recharges by the sun while you
> >> >> >> work.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > There is no proof of the Ellica's range.
> >> >>
> >> >> Are we back to the idea that everyone associated with the car are
> >> >> pathological liars? Like I said it would help if some folks took the
> >> >> time
> >> >> to
> >> >
> >> > "Pathological"? No, I doubt it. But exaggerating for their own benefit?
> >> > It happens all the time.
> >>
> >> And yet one wonders WHY it was shown on the documentary and both
> >> Mitsubishi
> >> and an American car magazine certified the results? A conspiracy?
> >
> > 1. Who did this alleged documentary?
>
> It is showing CURRENTLY on HD-Net "In Focus" program. Was done by NHK
> network in Japan. Sorry that Fox News didn't do it.

What was the title?

And where is the answer to my second question?

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

"Alan Baker" > wrote in message
...

>> >> >> >> >> Really? Let's see you are uptown, your wife is stranded
>> >> >> >> >> at a
>> >> >> >> >> hospital.
>> >> >> >> >> What DO YOU DO Mr. Malden? I suppose just about the same
>> >> >> >> >> thing
>> >> >> >> >> you'd
>> >> >> >> >> have
>> >> >> >> >> done if your Model T ran out of gas and you were nowhere near
>> >> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> >> gas
>> >> >> >> >> station.
>> >> >> >> >> You'd call a cab. But it doesn't have to be that way. Battery
>> >> >> >> >> packs
>> >> >> >> >> CAN
>> >> >> >> >> BE
>> >> >> >> >> plug and play. And while 40 mile range was the case 15 years
>> >> >> >> >> ago,
>> >> >> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> >> NOT
>> >> >> >> >> today.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Sorry, but you're simply ignoring the real limitations of the
>> >> >> >> > far
>> >> >> >> > more
>> >> >> >> > limited range and slow re-"fueling" speed of electric vehicles
>> >> >> >> > as
>> >> >> >> > compared to IC vehicles.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > My Miata easily goes 400km on a tank and it takes so little
>> >> >> >> > time
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > re-fill that I never need to consider whether or not to fill
>> >> >> >> > up.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > If there's an emergency that requires me to drive 400km all of
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > sudden,
>> >> >> >> > filling it takes only a few minutes.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> True in many points, however the Eliica has a range of
>> >> >> >> 360km.
>> >> >> >> Close
>> >> >> >> enough. True the present batteries require 45 minutes to charge,
>> >> >> >> however,
>> >> >> >> if
>> >> >> >> manufacturers could ever get their crap together like TV
>> >> >> >> manufacturers,
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> make a standard battery back that was made for quick
>> >> >> >> replacement,
>> >> >> >> then
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> could go to a service station, exchange your batteries for a
>> >> >> >> charged
>> >> >> >> pack
>> >> >> >> and go in 5 minutes. Knowing car companies it would require
>> >> >> >> legislation
>> >> >> >> mandating a standard. Batteries are improving exponentially.
>> >> >> >> Some
>> >> >> >> plans
>> >> >> >> include solar recharging. The car recharges by the sun while you
>> >> >> >> work.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > There is no proof of the Ellica's range.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Are we back to the idea that everyone associated with the car
>> >> >> are
>> >> >> pathological liars? Like I said it would help if some folks took
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> to
>> >> >
>> >> > "Pathological"? No, I doubt it. But exaggerating for their own
>> >> > benefit?
>> >> > It happens all the time.
>> >>
>> >> And yet one wonders WHY it was shown on the documentary and both
>> >> Mitsubishi
>> >> and an American car magazine certified the results? A conspiracy?
>> >
>> > 1. Who did this alleged documentary?
>>
>> It is showing CURRENTLY on HD-Net "In Focus" program. Was done by NHK
>> network in Japan. Sorry that Fox News didn't do it.
>
> What was the title?


JESUS CHRIST!!!!! http://www.hd.net/program_descriptions.html?start=2470

HDNet Program Descriptions
InFocus. Episode Title: Eliica: Japan's Electric Supercar. Synopsis: The
world's first electric car able to exceed 400 km/hr could soon be a reality.
....

http://jalopnik.com/5120911/eliica-e...nt-fast-enough

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01...-in-drag-race/

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...php?f=7&t=7211

In article >,
"krp" > wrote:

> "Alan Baker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> >> >> >> >> Really? Let's see you are uptown, your wife is stranded
> >> >> >> >> >> at a
> >> >> >> >> >> hospital.
> >> >> >> >> >> What DO YOU DO Mr. Malden? I suppose just about the same
> >> >> >> >> >> thing
> >> >> >> >> >> you'd
> >> >> >> >> >> have
> >> >> >> >> >> done if your Model T ran out of gas and you were nowhere near
> >> >> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> >> gas
> >> >> >> >> >> station.
> >> >> >> >> >> You'd call a cab. But it doesn't have to be that way. Battery
> >> >> >> >> >> packs
> >> >> >> >> >> CAN
> >> >> >> >> >> BE
> >> >> >> >> >> plug and play. And while 40 mile range was the case 15 years
> >> >> >> >> >> ago,
> >> >> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> >> NOT
> >> >> >> >> >> today.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > Sorry, but you're simply ignoring the real limitations of the
> >> >> >> >> > far
> >> >> >> >> > more
> >> >> >> >> > limited range and slow re-"fueling" speed of electric vehicles
> >> >> >> >> > as
> >> >> >> >> > compared to IC vehicles.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > My Miata easily goes 400km on a tank and it takes so little
> >> >> >> >> > time
> >> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> >> > re-fill that I never need to consider whether or not to fill
> >> >> >> >> > up.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > If there's an emergency that requires me to drive 400km all of
> >> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> >> > sudden,
> >> >> >> >> > filling it takes only a few minutes.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> True in many points, however the Eliica has a range of
> >> >> >> >> 360km.
> >> >> >> >> Close
> >> >> >> >> enough. True the present batteries require 45 minutes to charge,
> >> >> >> >> however,
> >> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> >> manufacturers could ever get their crap together like TV
> >> >> >> >> manufacturers,
> >> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> make a standard battery back that was made for quick
> >> >> >> >> replacement,
> >> >> >> >> then
> >> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> >> could go to a service station, exchange your batteries for a
> >> >> >> >> charged
> >> >> >> >> pack
> >> >> >> >> and go in 5 minutes. Knowing car companies it would require
> >> >> >> >> legislation
> >> >> >> >> mandating a standard. Batteries are improving exponentially.
> >> >> >> >> Some
> >> >> >> >> plans
> >> >> >> >> include solar recharging. The car recharges by the sun while you
> >> >> >> >> work.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > There is no proof of the Ellica's range.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Are we back to the idea that everyone associated with the car
> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> pathological liars? Like I said it would help if some folks took
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> time
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Pathological"? No, I doubt it. But exaggerating for their own
> >> >> > benefit?
> >> >> > It happens all the time.
> >> >>
> >> >> And yet one wonders WHY it was shown on the documentary and both
> >> >> Mitsubishi
> >> >> and an American car magazine certified the results? A conspiracy?
> >> >
> >> > 1. Who did this alleged documentary?
> >>
> >> It is showing CURRENTLY on HD-Net "In Focus" program. Was done by NHK
> >> network in Japan. Sorry that Fox News didn't do it.
> >
> > What was the title?
>
>
> JESUS CHRIST!!!!! http://www.hd.net/program_descriptions.html?start=2470
>
> HDNet Program Descriptions
> InFocus. Episode Title: Eliica: Japan's Electric Supercar. Synopsis: The
> world's first electric car able to exceed 400 km/hr could soon be a reality.

IOW, it wasn't a reality at the time of the documentary.

BTW, your link failed to produce that text.

> ...
>
> http://jalopnik.com/5120911/eliica-e...ading-to-produ
> ction-because-the-tesla-isnt-fast-enough
>
> http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01...s-away-mitsu-e
> vo-in-drag-race/


Sorry, but neither of those prove that the prototype's design is
actually practical for people to purchase. In fact, the the $225,000
each for a production run of 200 pretty much proves the opposite.
>
> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...php?f=7&t=7211

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>

ben91932 > wrote:

[again neglecting to attribute]

>> Suppose I have a lithium ion cell. It has a measured open-circuit
>> voltage of 3.2V. How, without significantly adversely impacting the
>> life of the cell, can I determine how much of its rated capacity it
>> will deliver next time it is charged and discharged?

>That's easy.. known load.. discharge to 2.7V (or whatever the spec's
>are) with a timer,
>calculate amphours.
>It wont affect life much as most li's are rated at around 2000 cycles.

Which traction power cells are rated at much more than 1000 cycles
at traction power loads? Spec sheets?
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | The growth of knowledge depends
X against HTML mail | entirely on disagreement.
/ \ and postings | -- Karl Popper

ben91932 > wrote:

[rudely neglecting to attribute]

>> But the cells have to be balanced for state of charge before being
>> placed in series to supply the load. That could mean breaking down
>> the battery at every charge cycle into individual cells and matching
>> them from a large population of cells for optimum.

>Cells dont need to matched so much by voltage as capacity, which in
>the case of Li's is a quick automated process during manufacture.

I see hand-waving and arguing against something that wasn't given.
I stated "balanced for state of charge". Nothing about voltage.

You also neglect that each cell 'wears' differently during use; even
in a series connected battery. The chance of having a perfectly-
matched set of cells in a battery is very, very low.

The "quick automated process" requires a discharge at fairly high
load to minimum; a recharge to rated maximum voltage; and a
discharge to minimum rated at high load. The cell is left discharged
.... which is quite safe for a few days, but should not be for
months.

Cells are manufactured to fit in a tolerance band. That band is
quite wide.

>Once batteries of similar capacity are assembled into a series pack
>it is easy to equalize them during charging.

But they have to remain series-connected and cells cannot be broken
out to be charged in parallel; which was suggested to reduce the
charge time. Series-connection doesn't prevent individual cells from
acquiring a different SOC during service. High currents, elevated
temperatures, vibration and initial variation within specifications
eventually cause some cells to become "weaker" than others and will
rapidly decline to failure in service.

That is why every Li cell's voltage, current and temperature have to
be evaluated continuously in service so that the weak cells can be
isolated and bypassed before they cause greater problems.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | The growth of knowledge depends
X against HTML mail | entirely on disagreement.
/ \ and postings | -- Karl Popper

On Jul 1, 7:20*pm, Bernd Felsche >
wrote:
> ben91932 > wrote:
>
> [rudely neglecting to attribute]

>
> I see hand-waving and arguing against something that wasn't given.
> I stated "balanced for state of charge". Nothing about voltage.

Hand waving? Arguing?
I'm not arguing with anyone, merely offering my opinions and
experiences.
In retrospect, I did kinda pull the 2000 cycle thing out of my ass.
Here is the closest thing to a spec sheet that I feel like posting.
http://www.a123systems.com/technology/life
It was not my intent to be exact, but to convey the fact that
measuring battery capacity is not destructive, but a simple
common procedure. In fact, I have my 9th grade students do this in
their first semester.

This group tends to get a little carried away at times with propeller
head stuff, ego's and ****ing contests.
Having built, displayed, driven, raced and taught electric vehicles
since 1995, I thought my experience
might benefit the group.
HTH,
Ben

> That is why every Li cell's voltage, current and temperature have to
> be evaluated continuously in service so that the weak cells can be
> isolated and bypassed before they cause greater problems.

Very true.
The guy who built this:
http://www.killacycle.com/
says that the hardest part of developing this thing with the Li's
was designing and implementing the battery monitoring system.
GM has put millions into the BMS for the Volt.
The days of thermal runaway in Li's is pretty much over.
Milwaukee did a great job on the v-28 BMS, which I believe
is micro-processor controlled.
HTH,
Ben

ben91932 > wrote:

>> That is why every Li cell's voltage, current and temperature have to
>> be evaluated continuously in service so that the weak cells can be
>> isolated and bypassed before they cause greater problems.

>Very true.
>The guy who built this:
>http://www.killacycle.com/
>says that the hardest part of developing this thing with the Li's
>was designing and implementing the battery monitoring system.
>GM has put millions into the BMS for the Volt.

Putting money into a project is not the same as actually achieving
anything with the project.

>The days of thermal runaway in Li's is pretty much over.

The problem is more severe than thermal runaway and a fire that
can't be put out by "conventional" means.

Running a high current through a cell that has become a resistor
will damage neighbouring cells; initially decreasing their
efficiency and bringing their SOC to a different level than the rest
of the battery. The cell must be isolated and bypassed as soon as an
excursion is detected to protect the other cells of the battery.
Solid-state electronics to do that automatically are *very*
difficult to implement cheaply, given the voltages involved. The
cost is several to tens of dollars per cell. Which is significant if
you have 6831 cells in your battery.

The only inherently-safe Li chemistry on the market is LiPO4.
It is also the only one that approaches being able to live on the
road, capable of supplying traction power at elevated road
temperatures (50 degrees C and higher on summer tarmac). But the
energy density of LiPO4 isn't much better than NiMH.

>Milwaukee did a great job on the v-28 BMS, which I believe
>is micro-processor controlled.

No significant information. Almost all new BMS have been uC-based
since the 1990's.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | The growth of knowledge depends
X against HTML mail | entirely on disagreement.
/ \ and postings | -- Karl Popper