headlights cut out after battery jump; engine breaks up

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:

> car died. headlights cut out after battery jump on 93 dodge spirit 2.5 L.;
> engine breaks up as lights dim. had to turn off lights to keep engine from
> breaking up. ammeter on dash showed total discharge, no charging going on.

There is no ammeter on the dash. There is, however, a voltmeter.

> After charging the battery all night, it was still slow to crank engine,
> and one cell was dead.

One cell was probably dead before the jump start.

> Put in new battery and car ran fine. Ammeter in dash now reads at about
> 12 v. (or amps) (just below that mark).

VOLTmeter in dash should read higher than 12, but they are not precision
instruments. For a rough check, turn the ignition key to "on" without
starting the engine, note the position of the voltmeter needle, then start
the engine. After approximately 5 seconds, the voltmeter needle should
jump to a higher reading. If it does not, your alternator is not charging.

You will want to check the flash codes to see if a charging system fault
has been registered.

To check the computer codes:

With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
leaving it "ON". Do not
go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.

Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been stored.
For instance, if it flashes:

flash <pause> flash flash
<long pause>
flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
<long pause>
flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash

Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and a
55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
stored. Check the codes and report what you find.


DS

The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10 with
headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've said, I'd
suspect that it's not charging. This has been a good car, and I'd like to
keep it running if I can fix it economically. Thanks for any more feedback.

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>
> > car died. headlights cut out after battery jump on 93 dodge spirit 2.5
L.;
> > engine breaks up as lights dim. had to turn off lights to keep engine
from
> > breaking up. ammeter on dash showed total discharge, no charging going
on.
>
> There is no ammeter on the dash. There is, however, a voltmeter.
>
> > After charging the battery all night, it was still slow to crank engine,
> > and one cell was dead.
>
> One cell was probably dead before the jump start.
>
> > Put in new battery and car ran fine. Ammeter in dash now reads at about
> > 12 v. (or amps) (just below that mark).
>
> VOLTmeter in dash should read higher than 12, but they are not precision
> instruments. For a rough check, turn the ignition key to "on" without
> starting the engine, note the position of the voltmeter needle, then start
> the engine. After approximately 5 seconds, the voltmeter needle should
> jump to a higher reading. If it does not, your alternator is not charging.
>
> You will want to check the flash codes to see if a charging system fault
> has been registered.
>
> To check the computer codes:
>
> With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
> leaving it "ON". Do not
> go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.
>
> Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
> off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been stored.
> For instance, if it flashes:
>
> flash <pause> flash flash
> <long pause>
> flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
> <long pause>
> flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>
> Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and a
> 55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
> stored. Check the codes and report what you find.
>
>
> DS

The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10 with
headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've said, I'd
suspect that it's not charging. This has been a good car, and I'd like to
keep it running if I can fix it economically. Thanks for any more feedback.

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>
> > car died. headlights cut out after battery jump on 93 dodge spirit 2.5
L.;
> > engine breaks up as lights dim. had to turn off lights to keep engine
from
> > breaking up. ammeter on dash showed total discharge, no charging going
on.
>
> There is no ammeter on the dash. There is, however, a voltmeter.
>
> > After charging the battery all night, it was still slow to crank engine,
> > and one cell was dead.
>
> One cell was probably dead before the jump start.
>
> > Put in new battery and car ran fine. Ammeter in dash now reads at about
> > 12 v. (or amps) (just below that mark).
>
> VOLTmeter in dash should read higher than 12, but they are not precision
> instruments. For a rough check, turn the ignition key to "on" without
> starting the engine, note the position of the voltmeter needle, then start
> the engine. After approximately 5 seconds, the voltmeter needle should
> jump to a higher reading. If it does not, your alternator is not charging.
>
> You will want to check the flash codes to see if a charging system fault
> has been registered.
>
> To check the computer codes:
>
> With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
> leaving it "ON". Do not
> go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.
>
> Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
> off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been stored.
> For instance, if it flashes:
>
> flash <pause> flash flash
> <long pause>
> flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
> <long pause>
> flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>
> Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and a
> 55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
> stored. Check the codes and report what you find.
>
>
> DS

Also check for corrosion and poor battery connections. Sometimes corrosion
destroys the cables.


"john" > wrote in message
...
> The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> with
> headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've said,
> I'd
> suspect that it's not charging. This has been a good car, and I'd like to
> keep it running if I can fix it economically. Thanks for any more
> feedback.
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> n.umich.edu...
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>>
>> > car died. headlights cut out after battery jump on 93 dodge spirit 2.5
> L.;
>> > engine breaks up as lights dim. had to turn off lights to keep engine
> from
>> > breaking up. ammeter on dash showed total discharge, no charging going
> on.
>>
>> There is no ammeter on the dash. There is, however, a voltmeter.
>>
>> > After charging the battery all night, it was still slow to crank
>> > engine,
>> > and one cell was dead.
>>
>> One cell was probably dead before the jump start.
>>
>> > Put in new battery and car ran fine. Ammeter in dash now reads at
>> > about
>> > 12 v. (or amps) (just below that mark).
>>
>> VOLTmeter in dash should read higher than 12, but they are not precision
>> instruments. For a rough check, turn the ignition key to "on" without
>> starting the engine, note the position of the voltmeter needle, then
>> start
>> the engine. After approximately 5 seconds, the voltmeter needle should
>> jump to a higher reading. If it does not, your alternator is not
>> charging.
>>
>> You will want to check the flash codes to see if a charging system fault
>> has been registered.
>>
>> To check the computer codes:
>>
>> With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
>> leaving it "ON". Do not
>> go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.
>>
>> Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
>> off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been
>> stored.
>> For instance, if it flashes:
>>
>> flash <pause> flash flash
>> <long pause>
>> flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>> <long pause>
>> flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>>
>> Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and
>> a
>> 55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
>> stored. Check the codes and report what you find.
>>
>>
>> DS
>
>

Also check for corrosion and poor battery connections. Sometimes corrosion
destroys the cables.


"john" > wrote in message
...
> The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> with
> headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've said,
> I'd
> suspect that it's not charging. This has been a good car, and I'd like to
> keep it running if I can fix it economically. Thanks for any more
> feedback.
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> n.umich.edu...
>> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>>
>> > car died. headlights cut out after battery jump on 93 dodge spirit 2.5
> L.;
>> > engine breaks up as lights dim. had to turn off lights to keep engine
> from
>> > breaking up. ammeter on dash showed total discharge, no charging going
> on.
>>
>> There is no ammeter on the dash. There is, however, a voltmeter.
>>
>> > After charging the battery all night, it was still slow to crank
>> > engine,
>> > and one cell was dead.
>>
>> One cell was probably dead before the jump start.
>>
>> > Put in new battery and car ran fine. Ammeter in dash now reads at
>> > about
>> > 12 v. (or amps) (just below that mark).
>>
>> VOLTmeter in dash should read higher than 12, but they are not precision
>> instruments. For a rough check, turn the ignition key to "on" without
>> starting the engine, note the position of the voltmeter needle, then
>> start
>> the engine. After approximately 5 seconds, the voltmeter needle should
>> jump to a higher reading. If it does not, your alternator is not
>> charging.
>>
>> You will want to check the flash codes to see if a charging system fault
>> has been registered.
>>
>> To check the computer codes:
>>
>> With the engine off, switch the ignition key on-off-on-off-on,
>> leaving it "ON". Do not
>> go to "start", just "on" during this procedure.
>>
>> Watch the "Check Engine" or "Power Loss" light. It will turn on, then go
>> off, then will begin to flash-out any trouble codes that have been
>> stored.
>> For instance, if it flashes:
>>
>> flash <pause> flash flash
>> <long pause>
>> flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>> <long pause>
>> flash flash flash flash flash <pause> flash flash flash flash flash
>>
>> Then you have a 12 (one flash followed by two) a 35 (three and five) and
>> a
>> 55 (five and five). 55 means "end of codes" or, if by itself, "No codes
>> stored. Check the codes and report what you find.
>>
>>
>> DS
>
>

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:

[1993 Dodge Spirit]
> The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> with headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've
> said, I'd suspect that it's not charging.

You're right. It's not charging.

> This has been a good car, and I'd like to keep it running if I can fix
> it economically.

They are good cars; I've owned several. And yes, you can fix it
economically. Your flash codes are as follows:

12: Start of codes
41: Alternator field circuit open or shorted
55: End of codes

That code 41 tells us you've got charging system problems. Could be a
faulty alternator, could be loose wires or dirty connections, could be a
faulty voltage regulator. The regulator is located inside the engine
control computer; if it's dead you can economically fix it by installing
an external regulator, but we're not at that point yet.

What's needed now is competent diagnosis of your charging system to zero
in on the fault. From your previous post, it sounds as though you won't be
doing your own work, so get the car to a reliable and competent mechanic
(this means no chain shops) ASAP. It won't run for long without the
battery charging, so unless the mechanic is a very short distance away,
have the car towed.

The fix will depend on what the mechanic finds.

DS

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:

[1993 Dodge Spirit]
> The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> with headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've
> said, I'd suspect that it's not charging.

You're right. It's not charging.

> This has been a good car, and I'd like to keep it running if I can fix
> it economically.

They are good cars; I've owned several. And yes, you can fix it
economically. Your flash codes are as follows:

12: Start of codes
41: Alternator field circuit open or shorted
55: End of codes

That code 41 tells us you've got charging system problems. Could be a
faulty alternator, could be loose wires or dirty connections, could be a
faulty voltage regulator. The regulator is located inside the engine
control computer; if it's dead you can economically fix it by installing
an external regulator, but we're not at that point yet.

What's needed now is competent diagnosis of your charging system to zero
in on the fault. From your previous post, it sounds as though you won't be
doing your own work, so get the car to a reliable and competent mechanic
(this means no chain shops) ASAP. It won't run for long without the
battery charging, so unless the mechanic is a very short distance away,
have the car towed.

The fix will depend on what the mechanic finds.

DS

I wonder if my cleaning the engine at the self-serve car wash caused this
problem?

It does have the original alternator, and it has 180,000 miles, so I guess
it was just a matter of time. A rebuilt alternator from parts stores cost
between 130 and 180 dollars , and with labor and the markup a shop puts on
parts, I'd guess this is at least a 300 plus dollar job.

What if I got a used alternator from a reputable salvage yard and put that
in myself? I've swapped out alternators in my younger days, and looking at
the engine compartment, it looks like I may be able to remove the alternator
without having to remove anything else (though it appears to sit below a
compressor).


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>
> [1993 Dodge Spirit]
> > The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> > with headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've
> > said, I'd suspect that it's not charging.
>
> You're right. It's not charging.
>
> > This has been a good car, and I'd like to keep it running if I can fix
> > it economically.
>
> They are good cars; I've owned several. And yes, you can fix it
> economically. Your flash codes are as follows:
>
> 12: Start of codes
> 41: Alternator field circuit open or shorted
> 55: End of codes
>
> That code 41 tells us you've got charging system problems. Could be a
> faulty alternator, could be loose wires or dirty connections, could be a
> faulty voltage regulator. The regulator is located inside the engine
> control computer; if it's dead you can economically fix it by installing
> an external regulator, but we're not at that point yet.
>
> What's needed now is competent diagnosis of your charging system to zero
> in on the fault. From your previous post, it sounds as though you won't be
> doing your own work, so get the car to a reliable and competent mechanic
> (this means no chain shops) ASAP. It won't run for long without the
> battery charging, so unless the mechanic is a very short distance away,
> have the car towed.
>
> The fix will depend on what the mechanic finds.
>
> DS

I wonder if my cleaning the engine at the self-serve car wash caused this
problem?

It does have the original alternator, and it has 180,000 miles, so I guess
it was just a matter of time. A rebuilt alternator from parts stores cost
between 130 and 180 dollars , and with labor and the markup a shop puts on
parts, I'd guess this is at least a 300 plus dollar job.

What if I got a used alternator from a reputable salvage yard and put that
in myself? I've swapped out alternators in my younger days, and looking at
the engine compartment, it looks like I may be able to remove the alternator
without having to remove anything else (though it appears to sit below a
compressor).


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
>
> [1993 Dodge Spirit]
> > The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> > with headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've
> > said, I'd suspect that it's not charging.
>
> You're right. It's not charging.
>
> > This has been a good car, and I'd like to keep it running if I can fix
> > it economically.
>
> They are good cars; I've owned several. And yes, you can fix it
> economically. Your flash codes are as follows:
>
> 12: Start of codes
> 41: Alternator field circuit open or shorted
> 55: End of codes
>
> That code 41 tells us you've got charging system problems. Could be a
> faulty alternator, could be loose wires or dirty connections, could be a
> faulty voltage regulator. The regulator is located inside the engine
> control computer; if it's dead you can economically fix it by installing
> an external regulator, but we're not at that point yet.
>
> What's needed now is competent diagnosis of your charging system to zero
> in on the fault. From your previous post, it sounds as though you won't be
> doing your own work, so get the car to a reliable and competent mechanic
> (this means no chain shops) ASAP. It won't run for long without the
> battery charging, so unless the mechanic is a very short distance away,
> have the car towed.
>
> The fix will depend on what the mechanic finds.
>
> DS

make sure you test all fuses with a test lite first and that includes all the
fusable link if you don't have b+ when and were it's needed and it may be a
cheap fix

john wrote:

> I wonder if my cleaning the engine at the self-serve car wash caused this
> problem?
>
> It does have the original alternator, and it has 180,000 miles, so I guess
> it was just a matter of time. A rebuilt alternator from parts stores cost
> between 130 and 180 dollars , and with labor and the markup a shop puts on
> parts, I'd guess this is at least a 300 plus dollar job.
>
> What if I got a used alternator from a reputable salvage yard and put that
> in myself? I've swapped out alternators in my younger days, and looking at
> the engine compartment, it looks like I may be able to remove the alternator
> without having to remove anything else (though it appears to sit below a
> compressor).
>
> "Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
> n.umich.edu...
> > On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, john wrote:
> >
> > [1993 Dodge Spirit]
> > > The voltmeter reads 11 when engine is running in park, and it reads 10
> > > with headlamps on in park. The codes read 12, 41, 55. From what you've
> > > said, I'd suspect that it's not charging.
> >
> > You're right. It's not charging.
> >
> > > This has been a good car, and I'd like to keep it running if I can fix
> > > it economically.
> >
> > They are good cars; I've owned several. And yes, you can fix it
> > economically. Your flash codes are as follows:
> >
> > 12: Start of codes
> > 41: Alternator field circuit open or shorted
> > 55: End of codes
> >
> > That code 41 tells us you've got charging system problems. Could be a
> > faulty alternator, could be loose wires or dirty connections, could be a
> > faulty voltage regulator. The regulator is located inside the engine
> > control computer; if it's dead you can economically fix it by installing
> > an external regulator, but we're not at that point yet.
> >
> > What's needed now is competent diagnosis of your charging system to zero
> > in on the fault. From your previous post, it sounds as though you won't be
> > doing your own work, so get the car to a reliable and competent mechanic
> > (this means no chain shops) ASAP. It won't run for long without the
> > battery charging, so unless the mechanic is a very short distance away,
> > have the car towed.
> >
> > The fix will depend on what the mechanic finds.
> >
> > DS