injection motor?

what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
difference between it and a traditional motor?

On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:

>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>difference between it and a traditional motor?

carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
manifold.

By contrast, fuel injection is a process of squirting raw fuel
directly into a cylinder without going through the manifold fuel/air
mix cycle. Fuel injectors are like garden hose nozzles that pulse on
and off during the power stroke of each piston/cylinder. Each
piston/cylinder has it's own injector, and runs independently of all
the others, but in synchronization so that the fuel is squirted into
the cylinder before the piston reaches top dead center ( highest
position it can extend to ). The dwell angle is the amount of pre-TDC
that the fuel is injected at. For example, mine is something like,
IIRC, 18 degrees before TDC. That's when the fuel is injected to
combine with the air.

It is then compressed when the valves seal off the cylinder, and
detonated by the spark plugs.

The firing pattern is designed to provide the best harmonic balance to
the engine so it doesn't vibrate itself into oblivion.

Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

> On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>
>
>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>
>
> carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
> 14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
> explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
> *intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
> *bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
> manifold.
>
> By contrast, fuel injection is a process of squirting raw fuel
> directly into a cylinder without going through the manifold fuel/air
> mix cycle. Fuel injectors are like garden hose nozzles that pulse on
> and off during the power stroke of each piston/cylinder. Each
> piston/cylinder has it's own injector, and runs independently of all
> the others, but in synchronization so that the fuel is squirted into
> the cylinder before the piston reaches top dead center ( highest
> position it can extend to ). The dwell angle is the amount of pre-TDC
> that the fuel is injected at. For example, mine is something like,
> IIRC, 18 degrees before TDC. That's when the fuel is injected to
> combine with the air.
>
> It is then compressed when the valves seal off the cylinder, and
> detonated by the spark plugs.
>
> The firing pattern is designed to provide the best harmonic balance to
> the engine so it doesn't vibrate itself into oblivion.
>
> Lg
>

Ummm... not exactly. There's several types of fuel injection, and what
you're describing is "direct injection" which is pretty much only used
on Diesels, and rarely at that (although that is changing.) Most
injected gasoline engines are multi-point systems which inject the fuel
into the intake manifold, but close to the intake valves (one injector
per cylinder.) Some early systems were "throttle body" systems which
were basically carburetor-like assemblies that used fuel injectors
rather than venturis.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:04:21 -0500, Nate Nagel >
wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
>> On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>>
>>
>> carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>> 14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>> explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>> *intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>> *bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>> manifold.
>>
>> By contrast, fuel injection is a process of squirting raw fuel
>> directly into a cylinder without going through the manifold fuel/air
>> mix cycle. Fuel injectors are like garden hose nozzles that pulse on
>> and off during the power stroke of each piston/cylinder. Each
>> piston/cylinder has it's own injector, and runs independently of all
>> the others, but in synchronization so that the fuel is squirted into
>> the cylinder before the piston reaches top dead center ( highest
>> position it can extend to ). The dwell angle is the amount of pre-TDC
>> that the fuel is injected at. For example, mine is something like,
>> IIRC, 18 degrees before TDC. That's when the fuel is injected to
>> combine with the air.
>>
>> It is then compressed when the valves seal off the cylinder, and
>> detonated by the spark plugs.
>>
>> The firing pattern is designed to provide the best harmonic balance to
>> the engine so it doesn't vibrate itself into oblivion.
>>
>> Lg
>>
>
>Ummm... not exactly. There's several types of fuel injection, and what
>you're describing is "direct injection" which is pretty much only used
>on Diesels, and rarely at that (although that is changing.) Most
>injected gasoline engines are multi-point systems which inject the fuel
>into the intake manifold, but close to the intake valves (one injector
>per cylinder.) Some early systems were "throttle body" systems which
>were basically carburetor-like assemblies that used fuel injectors
>rather than venturis.
>
>nate

What are you doing up at this hour Nate? I have an excuse, I have
bronchitis and can't sleep.

Yes, your correction is noted and acknowledged. I don't know why I
said -directly- into the cylinders, when I should have said directly
AT the cylinders.

BTW, Happy New Year.

Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:04:21 -0500, Nate Nagel >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>>>
>>>
>>>carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>>>14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>>>explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>>>*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>>>*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>>>manifold.
>>>
>>>By contrast, fuel injection is a process of squirting raw fuel
>>>directly into a cylinder without going through the manifold fuel/air
>>>mix cycle. Fuel injectors are like garden hose nozzles that pulse on
>>>and off during the power stroke of each piston/cylinder. Each
>>>piston/cylinder has it's own injector, and runs independently of all
>>>the others, but in synchronization so that the fuel is squirted into
>>>the cylinder before the piston reaches top dead center ( highest
>>>position it can extend to ). The dwell angle is the amount of pre-TDC
>>>that the fuel is injected at. For example, mine is something like,
>>>IIRC, 18 degrees before TDC. That's when the fuel is injected to
>>>combine with the air.
>>>
>>>It is then compressed when the valves seal off the cylinder, and
>>>detonated by the spark plugs.
>>>
>>>The firing pattern is designed to provide the best harmonic balance to
>>>the engine so it doesn't vibrate itself into oblivion.
>>>
>>>Lg
>>>
>>
>>Ummm... not exactly. There's several types of fuel injection, and what
>>you're describing is "direct injection" which is pretty much only used
>>on Diesels, and rarely at that (although that is changing.) Most
>>injected gasoline engines are multi-point systems which inject the fuel
>>into the intake manifold, but close to the intake valves (one injector
>>per cylinder.) Some early systems were "throttle body" systems which
>>were basically carburetor-like assemblies that used fuel injectors
>>rather than venturis.
>>
>>nate
>
>
> What are you doing up at this hour Nate? I have an excuse, I have
> bronchitis and can't sleep.
>
> Yes, your correction is noted and acknowledged. I don't know why I
> said -directly- into the cylinders, when I should have said directly
> AT the cylinders.
>
> BTW, Happy New Year.
>
> Lg
>

If you really want to know, it's a combination of laundry and a sleep
schedule completely screwed up by working almost-double-shifts for the
past two weeks... (the extra $$ is almost worth it though, and nicely
offsets the "merry Xmas to me" Porsche stuff I've been buying... same
week I had to pop for a new halfshaft, one of the "if I ever see it I'm
going to buy it" items showed up on eBay... sigh...)

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:37:27 -0500, Nate Nagel >
wrote:

>If you really want to know, it's a combination of laundry and a sleep
>schedule completely screwed up by working almost-double-shifts for the
>past two weeks... (the extra $$ is almost worth it though, and nicely
>offsets the "merry Xmas to me" Porsche stuff I've been buying... same
>week I had to pop for a new halfshaft, one of the "if I ever see it I'm
>going to buy it" items showed up on eBay... sigh...)
>
>nate

I don't envy you bud. I remember once working an 80 hour week, that's
12 hours/day for 7 days in a row without a break, followed by a 60
hour week.

When I landed at O'Hare, I was -seriously- thinking of checking into a
hospital for a blood transfusion to keep me alive.

At a certain point in Life, I decided it was the money or my Life. I
cut loose from the paper chase.

Enjoy your new parts.

Lg

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:03:21 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:

>On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>
>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>
>carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>manifold.


This would only be true on a turbocharged or supercharged engine.
The intake manifold is working in a vacuum and the piston pulls
fuel/air in when the intake valve is open. The throttle blades in the
carb limit the amount of air/fuel mixture the cylinders can pull in
that why you have a vaccum.

Steve B.

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:17:28 GMT, Steve B. > wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:03:21 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:
>
>>On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>>
>>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>>
>>carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>>14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>>explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>>*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>>*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>>manifold.
>
>
>This would only be true on a turbocharged or supercharged engine.
>The intake manifold is working in a vacuum and the piston pulls
>fuel/air in when the intake valve is open. The throttle blades in the
>carb limit the amount of air/fuel mixture the cylinders can pull in
>that why you have a vaccum.
>
> Steve B.

If you want to get technical, that's OK with me.
When you are zooming down the highway at 60 MPH, do you think you have
a negative pressure in your intake manifold, or a positive pressure
from the force of air going into the scoop?

Lg

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:17:28 GMT, Steve B. > wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:03:21 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>>>
>>>carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>>>14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>>>explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>>>*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>>>*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>>>manifold.
>>
>>
>>This would only be true on a turbocharged or supercharged engine.
>>The intake manifold is working in a vacuum and the piston pulls
>>fuel/air in when the intake valve is open. The throttle blades in the
>>carb limit the amount of air/fuel mixture the cylinders can pull in
>>that why you have a vaccum.
>>
>> Steve B.
>
>
> If you want to get technical, that's OK with me.
> When you are zooming down the highway at 60 MPH, do you think you have
> a negative pressure in your intake manifold, or a positive pressure
> from the force of air going into the scoop?
>
> Lg
>

Negative pressure, usually about 13-17 in. Hg depending on throttle
position. (yes, I have a vacuum gauge in one of my cars.) Pressure
NEVER goes positive that I can tell, although vacuum will drop close
enough to zero to be considered zero on hard acceleration.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 09:29:14 -0500, Nate Nagel >
wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:17:28 GMT, Steve B. > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 05:03:21 -0600, Lawrence Glickman
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2 Jan 2005 02:48:51 -0800, (nanofuc) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>what does it means that a car motor is injection motor? What is the
>>>>>difference between it and a traditional motor?
>>>>
>>>>carbureted engines pre-mix fuel/air and provide that mix at an ideal
>>>>14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio, to an intake manifold, which forces this
>>>>explosive mixture into the piston cylinders under pressure when the
>>>>*intake* valves of the piston cylinders open. So, all cylinders in 1
>>>>*bank* get the same fuel/air mix from the same reserve in the intake
>>>>manifold.
>>>
>>>
>>>This would only be true on a turbocharged or supercharged engine.
>>>The intake manifold is working in a vacuum and the piston pulls
>>>fuel/air in when the intake valve is open. The throttle blades in the
>>>carb limit the amount of air/fuel mixture the cylinders can pull in
>>>that why you have a vaccum.
>>>
>>> Steve B.
>>
>>
>> If you want to get technical, that's OK with me.
>> When you are zooming down the highway at 60 MPH, do you think you have
>> a negative pressure in your intake manifold, or a positive pressure
>> from the force of air going into the scoop?
>>
>> Lg
>>
>
>Negative pressure, usually about 13-17 in. Hg depending on throttle
>position. (yes, I have a vacuum gauge in one of my cars.) Pressure
>NEVER goes positive that I can tell, although vacuum will drop close
>enough to zero to be considered zero on hard acceleration.
>
>nate

That makes no f*in sense whatsoever.
You will say, in a formula 1, that the monster air scoop is there to
provide a VACUUM for the intake manifold?

no way Jose.

I will have to see this to believe it.

And in an ordinary car like mine, SEFI, a negative pressure in the
intake manifold? I am going to -have- to see how I can measure that
on my own vehicle. That is just plain ****ing STUPID.

Now I don't rule out STUPID as a factory-approved way of doing things,
it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Lg