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What do you think of FILSCA?



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 11th 05, 02:04 PM
Christoph Schirmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now please do me a favor, and show me where anyone involved in FILSCA
has claimed to be or be part of "the kings of sims".

Unlike some other ranking site we don't even claim to represent
everyone. You always find a "FILSCA" prefix there.

And please take a second, a minute, or even a day to think about this:
you have a group of mates with whom you go out for a beer once a week.
Do you think it appropriate if some one denies your right to do that,
or do you think it is appropriate to call them wannabee beer ******s,
or to insinuate that they drink away all the beer that the others want?

A club is nothing more like that - be it that they go out for beer
drinking or be it that the use some common applications, present them
at a web site, have fun in racing sims, and maybe help each other with
their daily work.

Thank you for your consideration.

Christoph Schirmer

Ron Ayton wrote:
> "Bombshell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Just wondered what people's thoughts were on the whole FILSCA

thing?
> >
> > Good, bad, indifferent, never heard of it?
> >
> > Cheers.
> >
> > Bombshell.
> >

>
> When guys i used to race with back in 2000-2001 first mentioned the

idea of
> a central governing body for sim racing, (which incidentally was the


> pre-formation of FILSCA), i looked at it as a bunch of wanna-bees

trying to
> gain control of my leisure time hobby. I didn't like the idea then,

and i
> don't like the idea now.
> I will not have a cental governing group, wether it's democratically

or
> other-wise selected telling me how i should or shouldn't conduct

myself, or
> my club when i/we race on-line.
> Ranks and other suck crap are all ego boosters for the few that like

to see
> their names in lights.
> Whatever, go for it.
> I personally, will never allow a few so-called sim experts to in any

way
> influence me on how i use my sims or on-line racing time.
> I might feel a touch more generous to the idea if a central group

were
> democratically elected on a yearly bassis, with fully open-to-all

voting,
> but so far, all i have seen or heard of this elite group of

self-proclaimed
> "Kings of Sims", is their undying belief in their own holier than

thou
> attitude.
> Take it or leave it, but for me, i don't need someone to tell me my

rank,
> how good i am, how bad i am, if i am safe to drive against, if i am

as slow
> as a snail, or as fast as lightening.
> Reminds me of a story... The Pied Piper comes to mind...
>
> Cheers,
> Ron


Ads
  #42  
Old February 11th 05, 10:06 PM
mcewena
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>I didn't like the idea then, and i don't like the idea now.

I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably
go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like
the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).

Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine
there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
non-member player.

Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the moment
they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if they
were. However neither can change from the outside.

  #43  
Old February 11th 05, 10:51 PM
Tony Rickard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"mcewena" wrote:

> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
> groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably
> go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
> retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
> recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like
> the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
> it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).


I disagree. I believe the fan sites will remain whilst there is sufficient
interest. Sure some may come and go, but I don't believe people will be
prepared to pay for the co-ordination of fan sites. There is a tremendous
amount of man hours and commitment going into the mods and so on.

> Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
> orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine
> there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
> non-member player.


Going back a long while I belong to a motor club in the UK, which in itself
was affiliated to a regional association of motor clubs with its own set of
regional rules. This assocation was amember of the RAC motor sports
association (RACSMA).

To perform any form of motor sports I had to have an RACSMA competition
licence. This licence would have many levels such that to rally in a
national championship you needed regional experience etc. A "misbehaving"
driver could have his licence suspended.

The RACSMA provided the basic rules and requirements for the clubs and
provided a policing function both for clubs (to ensure their events were
properly run) and the drivers (to ensure they acted appropriately)

This allowed the motor club for which I belonged to run national events and
for their drivers to compete in other clubs events with a common umbrella
organisation.

This is where I see FILSCA or a similar organisation. Not a club - that is
the grass roots level - but an association of clubs providing common
standards, organising championships and events and a means of maintaining
driving standards.

Without some form of regional, national and international championships I
see no real reason for such an association. My motor club would have run
fine on its own if it just catered for its members and had no legal
obligation to subscribe.

The GPL league I race in runs superbly with excellent league admin, rules,
agreement processes and quality drivers, so I and the league have no need
for anything more. Which may be a reason the appetite for an association
seems weak.

However, unlike your local tennis club where you can be the local hero of a
membership group spanning just a few miles, sim racing tends to be world
wide. Maybe the opportunity to localise sim racing into local championships,
extending to regional, national and international could be the route forward
for developing interest. There aren't many other sports where you compete
with the world's best at a club level.

Food for thought maybe.

Cheers
Tony


  #44  
Old February 12th 05, 12:18 AM
Christoph Schirmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am sure that FILSCA is the form - but we need more active members.
Without active members, the form will surely not work.

A top-down commercial approach with investments - used to hand out
small goodies or to set up a big event or both - could surely gather
more people faster, but would it also stay for representing the
diversity in online racing - the different leagues, the different sims
etc. that FILSCA preserves? I doubt so.



mcewena wrote:
> >I didn't like the idea then, and i don't like the idea now.

>
> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
> groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will

inevitably
> go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
> retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
> recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems

like
> the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
> it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).
>
> Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
> orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I

imagine
> there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
> non-member player.
>
> Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the

moment
> they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if

they
> were. However neither can change from the outside.


  #45  
Old February 12th 05, 10:30 PM
Ron Ayton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"mcewena" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
> groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will inevitably
> go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move on,
> retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3 setups
> recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems like
> the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd propose
> it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).
>
> Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
> orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I imagine
> there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
> non-member player.
>
> Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the moment
> they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if they
> were. However neither can change from the outside.


Hi Mac, long time no see... Hope you have been keeping well.
I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is far from
the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised
governing body for sim racers world wide.
Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as a whole,
but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be
selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting pool.
I am just speculating anyway....
The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they start out
with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge, from
there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tired of a
central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do.
You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players when a
select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees of GPL.
That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that thought they
were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the average
sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent.
FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (open to all
sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as some people
will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it.

Cheers,
Ron.


  #46  
Old February 13th 05, 01:26 AM
Christoph Schirmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Sim racers
would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCA is
an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join.

FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a
platform where leagues can help each other and where the leagues their
drivers and their teams are presented together.

One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results as provided in
GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard work to
provide results or to process these data into their databases. Within
FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next few days,
maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR results and
gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have
something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics and everything.

Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server for all
member leagues or for team tests.

There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll see how it
develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by
dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lot to
do. And I go back to work now.

Christoph Schirmer




Ron Ayton wrote:
> "mcewena" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
> > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will

inevitably
> > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move

on,
> > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3

setups
> > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems

like
> > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd

propose
> > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).
> >
> > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
> > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I

imagine
> > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
> > non-member player.
> >
> > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the

moment
> > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if

they
> > were. However neither can change from the outside.

>
> Hi Mac, long time no see... Hope you have been keeping well.
> I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is

far from
> the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised
> governing body for sim racers world wide.
> Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as a

whole,
> but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be


> selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting

pool.
> I am just speculating anyway....
> The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they

start out
> with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge,

from
> there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tired

of a
> central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do.
> You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players when

a
> select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees of

GPL.
> That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that

thought they
> were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the

average
> sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent.
> FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (open

to all
> sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as some

people
> will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it.
>
> Cheers,
> Ron.


  #47  
Old February 13th 05, 11:11 AM
Byron Forbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Shrapnel" > wrote in message
...
> >
>> It stinks!
>>
>>

>
> That may be so, but I can agree with Christoph here, AutoSimSport is not a
> "FILSCA Newsletter" it is an independant magazine for the simracing
> community, written for the whole community and not just FILSCA member
> leagues.
>
> It features FILSCA race reports and results, but this is a small part of
> the
> whole. The magazine as it stands is trying to cover as broad a spread of
> the simracing community as we can.
>
> Jon.
> P.S: Anyway, this is not really anything to do with this discussion! )
>
>


It seems some of you missed the joke - the name "ASS" stinks. Maybe
those who think their **** doesn't stink wouldn't catch on I suppose!


  #48  
Old February 13th 05, 11:36 AM
Byron Forbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here's a retaliatory top post that also stinks!

"* The documents are sent to representatives of interested leagues upon
request."

This is the part I refer to. My point is simply that if I'm a league
admin who's not overly fussed about joining then the added hassle/wait of
this will probably just make me move on. Not to mention make people ask
themselves "Why don't they just make this stuff public". This is an insult
to the public in general and stinks of underhandedness. If there is stuff
you'd rather not post publically then why stick that in the public's face in
the first place? Just send it by email only after a league admin shows
interest! If it's a big secret then keep it a big secret!


"Christoph Schirmer" > wrote in message
ups.com...
You find the KISS versions at the FILSCA site:
http://www.filsca.com/1000253/386
http://www.filsca.com/1000253/773

Next, I don't find it unsimple, but only fair not to tell you any
bull**** or give you promises without providing complete information.
You may call that a bad sales strategy, or not simple. This is not a
company that wants to sell something, this is an adventure and an
enterprise that wants to see if a large group of diverse people
embedding within the sim racing community can seriously work on
something. I do not want to hide that, even if that may require you to
read a bit more and be more concentrated in doing so. And it is only
legitimate to keep the more formal things within the members - apart
from that anyone sees them before he/she joins.

Should there be really a reason to worry about someone who can't even
click a link to require more information?

If you think there is something hidden - be happy with your conspiracy
theory.
But fact is: any league is invited to join, and anyone is getting all
information before he/she joins. There is nothing hidden to those who
are affected. And it is just good behavior and education not to wash
internal clothes outside the members area.

As I said: some issues in the statutes need to be revised, and there is
surely no sense in publishing something where the leagues do not have
had the chance to discuss this exensively. Once that is done, ít will
be publicly available anyway.

Byron Forbes wrote:
> > Christoph Schirmer wrote:
> > >The rules are sent to any applicant (sorry Art, still no
> >> mail from you re. your league, so you do not have received the

rules
>
> Like leagues that wish to attract drivers, you need to make

everything
> simple to understand and easy to join. All this under the table stuff

is
> ridiculous - no wonder there's all this paranoia about - it looks

like
> you're hiding something. And you are! I'd get rid of all that

nonsense ASAP.
>
> As it is most league admins are probably umming and ahhing about

joining
> anyway. Making things difficult as you do just makes them forget you

and
> just get on with their own leagues. KISS. (ask what this means at

your own
> risk).



  #49  
Old February 13th 05, 12:18 PM
Byron Forbes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I must say I don't know how anyone could be threatened by FILSCA, even
if they did have a sinister agenda. They can only have the power to attract
leagues by offering clear benifits and little to no inconvenience -
otherwise why would anyone join? But they do seem to have some secrets which
is, of course, a clear indication of evil.


"Christoph Schirmer" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Sim racers
> would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCA is
> an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join.
>
> FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a
> platform where leagues can help each other and where the leagues their
> drivers and their teams are presented together.
>
> One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results as provided in
> GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard work to
> provide results or to process these data into their databases. Within
> FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next few days,
> maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR results and
> gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have
> something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics and everything.
>
> Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server for all
> member leagues or for team tests.
>
> There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll see how it
> develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by
> dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lot to
> do. And I go back to work now.
>
> Christoph Schirmer
>
>
>
>
> Ron Ayton wrote:
>> "mcewena" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or small
>> > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will

> inevitably
>> > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move

> on,
>> > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3

> setups
>> > recently for example). An elected club-style organization seems

> like
>> > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd

> propose
>> > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).
>> >
>> > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
>> > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I

> imagine
>> > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
>> > non-member player.
>> >
>> > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the

> moment
>> > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even if

> they
>> > were. However neither can change from the outside.

>>
>> Hi Mac, long time no see... Hope you have been keeping well.
>> I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is

> far from
>> the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a centralised
>> governing body for sim racers world wide.
>> Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as a

> whole,
>> but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should be

>
>> selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting

> pool.
>> I am just speculating anyway....
>> The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they

> start out
>> with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in charge,

> from
>> there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets tired

> of a
>> central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't do.
>> You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players when

> a
>> select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees of

> GPL.
>> That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that

> thought they
>> were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the

> average
>> sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent.
>> FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic (open

> to all
>> sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as some

> people
>> will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ron.

>



  #50  
Old February 13th 05, 07:49 PM
Christoph Schirmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Honestly I don't know of any secrets - but it were really if a member
admin could say something about that as no one believes me here :LOL:

The only definite downside that the members have not yet been engaged
enough and that there is a lack of man power to be more attractive for
more leagues.

Byron Forbes wrote:
> I must say I don't know how anyone could be threatened by FILSCA,

even
> if they did have a sinister agenda. They can only have the power to

attract
> leagues by offering clear benifits and little to no inconvenience -
> otherwise why would anyone join? But they do seem to have some

secrets which
> is, of course, a clear indication of evil.
>
>
> "Christoph Schirmer" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > FILSCA is not a governing body for sim racers world wide. Sim

racers
> > would include non-league racers and offline racers as well. FILSCA

is
> > an association of leagues - of leagues who voluntarily join.
> >
> > FILSCA is also far from excercising power over leagues - it is a
> > platform where leagues can help each other and where the leagues

their
> > drivers and their teams are presented together.
> >
> > One of the simplest advantages is e.g. this: the results as

provided in
> > GTR are far from any standard. Each league will have a hard work

to
> > provide results or to process these data into their databases.

Within
> > FILSCA one member admin coded the parser, and within the next few

days,
> > maybe even from tomorrow any member league can upload GTR results

and
> > gets automatically the results and standings. Even if you have
> > something as the RA, you still get extensive statistics and

everything.
> >
> > Another league which rents out servers, provides a free server for

all
> > member leagues or for team tests.
> >
> > There are further aspirations than that of course, and we'll see

how it
> > develops. Surely not by discussing about world governments or by
> > dissing GPLers. But you can always join and help - there is a lot

to
> > do. And I go back to work now.
> >
> > Christoph Schirmer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ron Ayton wrote:
> >> "mcewena" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >> > I firmly believe the websites that are run by individuals or

small
> >> > groups such as GPLrank, the track database, RSC, etc.. will

> > inevitably
> >> > go the way of eaglewoman and theuspits as their maintainers move

> > on,
> >> > retire, get hit by busses etc.. (I couldn't find your old F3

> > setups
> >> > recently for example). An elected club-style organization

seems
> > like
> >> > the perfect place to maintain and grow that content (hell I'd

> > propose
> >> > it's worth paying a small fee to maintain).
> >> >
> >> > Lots of people play hockey, golf, tennis without belonging to an
> >> > orginized club, and the same should be true of sim racing but I

> > imagine
> >> > there are lots of little ways these clubs indirectly benifit the
> >> > non-member player.
> >> >
> >> > Is FILSCA the forum? Probably not in it's current guise, at the

> > moment
> >> > they aren't interested and aren't big enough to tackle it even

if
> > they
> >> > were. However neither can change from the outside.
> >>
> >> Hi Mac, long time no see... Hope you have been keeping

well.
> >> I tend to agree with the basics of your thoughts, though FILSCA is

> > far from
> >> the democratic approach that i would be looking for in a

centralised
> >> governing body for sim racers world wide.
> >> Something like FILSCA would have some benefits to the sim racer as

a
> > whole,
> >> but it should not be run by a self appointed few, the board should

be
> >
> >> selected from the sim base world wide, maybe using RAS as a voting

> > pool.
> >> I am just speculating anyway....
> >> The trouble with these virtual systems of management is that they

> > start out
> >> with good intentions, then the power usually gets to those in

charge,
> > from
> >> there it is a downhill slide untill the regular sim racer gets

tired
> > of a
> >> central body telling him/her what they can do and what they can't

do.
> >> You yourself know what the feeling was amongst early GPL players

when
> > a
> >> select few (no names mentioned) thought they were the bees knees

of
> > GPL.
> >> That split the GPL community into two basic groups, those that

> > thought they
> >> were better than everyone else and the rest, which compromised the

> > average
> >> sim racer, be they fast, slow or indifferent.
> >> FILSCA will not work or be viable without a fully democratic

(open
> > to all
> >> sim racers) voting system and i can't see that ever happening as

some
> > people
> >> will not give up the reigns of power once they sample it.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Ron.

> >


 




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