LHS Steering Problem

On Jun 19, 5:34?pm, Bill Putney > wrote:
> oldcarnut wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 6:19?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
>
> >>oldcarnut wrote:
>
> >>>On Jun 17, 10:40?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
> >>>I have had some issues with the steering of my 2000 Concorde and I
> >>>wonder if bushing failure may not shed some light on the problem. What
> >>>does the bushing do and what might one expect to experience if that
> >>>bushing failed?
>
> >>>Thanks.
>
> >>Thosae particular bushings locate the steering rack to the car. If they
> >>get worn/loose, the steering rack can move relative to the car in
> >>response to steering input, and the effect is sloppy steering, play in
> >>the steering.
>
> >>There are other more common cause of sloppy steering on the LH cars.
> >>The most common is the inner tie rod bushings (connect the tie rods to
> >>the rack). An aftermarket inner tie rod bushing kit is around $20 and
> >>is slightly difficult to put in.
>
> >>Have someone move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch
> >>(looking down behind the engine) to see if the rack is moving or if
> >>there is play in either or both of the inner tie rod bushings.
>
> >>What exactly are your symptoms?
>
> >>Bill Putney
> >>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >>address with the letter 'x')
>
> > Hi Bill,
> > The rack is not moving and I have replaced the inner bushings (what a
> > pain!) because they were badly worn (2000 Concorde, 110k miles). I did
> > the rack bushings and inner tie rod bushings on my son's 94 Concorde
> > (205k miles)so I am familiar with what you are talking about.
> > The problem that I am experiencing, off and on, is that the steering
> > gets very heavy and one can actually hear a scraping sound, like a
> > piece of sand or a little stone is jammed in the mechanism. I have
> > "flushed" the PS fluid by sucking out the contents of the reservoir,
> > refilling, running the engine and repeating, using MoPar ATF+4. I
> > can't be sure if that helped or not because the problem is
> > intermittent and only occurs when moving slowly as when parking or
> > backing from a parking place. Most of the time it acts and responds
> > normally.
> > Engine speed seems okay and no noises from the pump, new belt. I
> > thought that I might try one more "flush" to see if that might be
> > helpful. I think that a small amount of "power steering fluid" had
> > been introduced into the system just before I started having these
> > issues. Do you know what effect that might have? Would it produce
> > symptoms like these?
> > I know this sounds rambling but I'm trying to get you all the info
> > that I have a one time. Thanks for your advice.
>
> You say the belt is new. Is it tight? The power steering belt would
> have to deliver its worst-case torque to the pump when the engine is
> idling - so that is certainly one possible cause. Perhaps the prbolem
> was there before the belt was changed - if that's the case, it might be
> reasonable to assume the belt is not the problem - but don't rule it out
> without checking.
>
> If the non-ATF+4 that was added was only a little bit, I wouldn't be
> concerned. If you added a lot, then maybe, but still doubtful.
>
> The first thing I'd rule out before anything else is a loose or slick belt.
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The problem was there before I changed out the belt. Installing the
new belt did not seem to have any effect. I believe that the belt is
properly adjusted although I don't know if there is an absolute way to
check without a gauge. I've put on lots and lots of belts over the
years and usually got them to the proper tension. Of course the old
style v-belts might have to be readjusted after a bit for stretch but
don't think that's the case with the new flat belts. Is there a test
to determine belt tension for these, like the old deflection method
for v-belts?
By the way, the scraping sound seems to have disappeared from the
equation. Maybe there was a bit of grit there that broke up or fell
away. I did, however, just now experience the heavy steering as I was
pulling into a parking space in our lot. Could this heaviness be
related to the steering geometry? The vehicle is pulling to the right
and does need an alignment but I am not sure if that is the chicken or
the egg. In other words, is there a problem with the steering (like
the rack) causing the heavy steering and/or alignment issue or does
the alignment cause the heavy steering problem? I have had vehicles
over the years which have gone out of alignment and the only issue was
pulling to one side or another. Is the Concorde different in that
respect. Don't want to buy an alignment only to find out that there's
another issue to address which will create the need for another
alignment.
Thanks again.

oldcarnut wrote:
> On Jun 19, 5:34?pm, Bill Putney > wrote:
>
>>oldcarnut wrote:
>>
>>>On Jun 19, 6:19?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>
>>>>oldcarnut wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Jun 17, 10:40?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
>>>>>I have had some issues with the steering of my 2000 Concorde and I
>>>>>wonder if bushing failure may not shed some light on the problem. What
>>>>>does the bushing do and what might one expect to experience if that
>>>>>bushing failed?
>>
>>>>>Thanks.
>>
>>>>Thosae particular bushings locate the steering rack to the car. If they
>>>>get worn/loose, the steering rack can move relative to the car in
>>>>response to steering input, and the effect is sloppy steering, play in
>>>>the steering.
>>
>>>>There are other more common cause of sloppy steering on the LH cars.
>>>>The most common is the inner tie rod bushings (connect the tie rods to
>>>>the rack). An aftermarket inner tie rod bushing kit is around $20 and
>>>>is slightly difficult to put in.
>>
>>>>Have someone move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch
>>>>(looking down behind the engine) to see if the rack is moving or if
>>>>there is play in either or both of the inner tie rod bushings.
>>
>>>>What exactly are your symptoms?
>>
>>>>Bill Putney
>>>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>>>address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>>Hi Bill,
>>>The rack is not moving and I have replaced the inner bushings (what a
>>>pain!) because they were badly worn (2000 Concorde, 110k miles). I did
>>>the rack bushings and inner tie rod bushings on my son's 94 Concorde
>>>(205k miles)so I am familiar with what you are talking about.
>>>The problem that I am experiencing, off and on, is that the steering
>>>gets very heavy and one can actually hear a scraping sound, like a
>>>piece of sand or a little stone is jammed in the mechanism. I have
>>>"flushed" the PS fluid by sucking out the contents of the reservoir,
>>>refilling, running the engine and repeating, using MoPar ATF+4. I
>>>can't be sure if that helped or not because the problem is
>>>intermittent and only occurs when moving slowly as when parking or
>>>backing from a parking place. Most of the time it acts and responds
>>>normally.
>>>Engine speed seems okay and no noises from the pump, new belt. I
>>>thought that I might try one more "flush" to see if that might be
>>>helpful. I think that a small amount of "power steering fluid" had
>>>been introduced into the system just before I started having these
>>>issues. Do you know what effect that might have? Would it produce
>>>symptoms like these?
>>>I know this sounds rambling but I'm trying to get you all the info
>>>that I have a one time. Thanks for your advice.
>>
>>You say the belt is new. Is it tight? The power steering belt would
>>have to deliver its worst-case torque to the pump when the engine is
>>idling - so that is certainly one possible cause. Perhaps the prbolem
>>was there before the belt was changed - if that's the case, it might be
>>reasonable to assume the belt is not the problem - but don't rule it out
>>without checking.
>>
>>If the non-ATF+4 that was added was only a little bit, I wouldn't be
>>concerned. If you added a lot, then maybe, but still doubtful.
>>
>>The first thing I'd rule out before anything else is a loose or slick belt.
>>
>>Bill Putney
>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>address with the letter 'x')- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> The problem was there before I changed out the belt. Installing the
> new belt did not seem to have any effect. I believe that the belt is
> properly adjusted although I don't know if there is an absolute way to
> check without a gauge. I've put on lots and lots of belts over the
> years and usually got them to the proper tension. Of course the old
> style v-belts might have to be readjusted after a bit for stretch but
> don't think that's the case with the new flat belts. Is there a test
> to determine belt tension for these, like the old deflection method
> for v-belts?
> By the way, the scraping sound seems to have disappeared from the
> equation. Maybe there was a bit of grit there that broke up or fell
> away. I did, however, just now experience the heavy steering as I was
> pulling into a parking space in our lot. Could this heaviness be
> related to the steering geometry? The vehicle is pulling to the right
> and does need an alignment but I am not sure if that is the chicken or
> the egg. In other words, is there a problem with the steering (like
> the rack) causing the heavy steering and/or alignment issue or does
> the alignment cause the heavy steering problem? I have had vehicles
> over the years which have gone out of alignment and the only issue was
> pulling to one side or another. Is the Concorde different in that
> respect. Don't want to buy an alignment only to find out that there's
> another issue to address which will create the need for another
> alignment.
> Thanks again.

The noise might also be a bad power steering belt idler/tensioner pulley
bearing. They do wear out and get noisy - good idea to replace that
pulley (and the a.c. belt one) periodically - maybe every other belt
change. If it was starting to really get bad, it could be binding up
just enough to make noise and mess with your steering at low engine
speeds but not enough drag yet to make a lot of smoke or other
noticeable problems. You might also adjust the belt just a tad tighter
in case there is something to slipping belt (irrespective of possible
idler pulley bearing problems) - at least try that temporarily - even if
you might be going what you feel is a tad too tight - to see if it is at
all related.

That's all I can think of.

Oh - if you have the 2.7L engine on the Concorde, there is a pressure
switch on the power steering at idle speeds to unload the engine. Could
be related, but I'm grabbing at straws there. (If it has the 3.2/3.5L
engine, it does not have that pressure switch.)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

On Jun 20, 7:48?pm, Bill Putney > wrote:
> oldcarnut wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 5:34?pm, Bill Putney > wrote:
>
> >>oldcarnut wrote:
>
> >>>On Jun 19, 6:19?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
>
> >>>>oldcarnut wrote:
>
> >>>>>On Jun 17, 10:40?am, Bill Putney > wrote:
> >>>>>I have had some issues with the steering of my 2000 Concorde and I
> >>>>>wonder if bushing failure may not shed some light on the problem. What
> >>>>>does the bushing do and what might one expect to experience if that
> >>>>>bushing failed?
>
> >>>>>Thanks.
>
> >>>>Thosae particular bushings locate the steering rack to the car. If they
> >>>>get worn/loose, the steering rack can move relative to the car in
> >>>>response to steering input, and the effect is sloppy steering, play in
> >>>>the steering.
>
> >>>>There are other more common cause of sloppy steering on the LH cars.
> >>>>The most common is the inner tie rod bushings (connect the tie rods to
> >>>>the rack). An aftermarket inner tie rod bushing kit is around $20 and
> >>>>is slightly difficult to put in.
>
> >>>>Have someone move the steering wheel back and forth while you watch
> >>>>(looking down behind the engine) to see if the rack is moving or if
> >>>>there is play in either or both of the inner tie rod bushings.
>
> >>>>What exactly are your symptoms?
>
> >>>>Bill Putney
> >>>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >>>>address with the letter 'x')
>
> >>>Hi Bill,
> >>>The rack is not moving and I have replaced the inner bushings (what a
> >>>pain!) because they were badly worn (2000 Concorde, 110k miles). I did
> >>>the rack bushings and inner tie rod bushings on my son's 94 Concorde
> >>>(205k miles)so I am familiar with what you are talking about.
> >>>The problem that I am experiencing, off and on, is that the steering
> >>>gets very heavy and one can actually hear a scraping sound, like a
> >>>piece of sand or a little stone is jammed in the mechanism. I have
> >>>"flushed" the PS fluid by sucking out the contents of the reservoir,
> >>>refilling, running the engine and repeating, using MoPar ATF+4. I
> >>>can't be sure if that helped or not because the problem is
> >>>intermittent and only occurs when moving slowly as when parking or
> >>>backing from a parking place. Most of the time it acts and responds
> >>>normally.
> >>>Engine speed seems okay and no noises from the pump, new belt. I
> >>>thought that I might try one more "flush" to see if that might be
> >>>helpful. I think that a small amount of "power steering fluid" had
> >>>been introduced into the system just before I started having these
> >>>issues. Do you know what effect that might have? Would it produce
> >>>symptoms like these?
> >>>I know this sounds rambling but I'm trying to get you all the info
> >>>that I have a one time. Thanks for your advice.
>
> >>You say the belt is new. Is it tight? The power steering belt would
> >>have to deliver its worst-case torque to the pump when the engine is
> >>idling - so that is certainly one possible cause. Perhaps the prbolem
> >>was there before the belt was changed - if that's the case, it might be
> >>reasonable to assume the belt is not the problem - but don't rule it out
> >>without checking.
>
> >>If the non-ATF+4 that was added was only a little bit, I wouldn't be
> >>concerned. If you added a lot, then maybe, but still doubtful.
>
> >>The first thing I'd rule out before anything else is a loose or slick belt.
>
> >>Bill Putney
> >>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> >>address with the letter 'x')- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>- Show quoted text -
>
> > The problem was there before I changed out the belt. Installing the
> > new belt did not seem to have any effect. I believe that the belt is
> > properly adjusted although I don't know if there is an absolute way to
> > check without a gauge. I've put on lots and lots of belts over the
> > years and usually got them to the proper tension. Of course the old
> > style v-belts might have to be readjusted after a bit for stretch but
> > don't think that's the case with the new flat belts. Is there a test
> > to determine belt tension for these, like the old deflection method
> > for v-belts?
> > By the way, the scraping sound seems to have disappeared from the
> > equation. Maybe there was a bit of grit there that broke up or fell
> > away. I did, however, just now experience the heavy steering as I was
> > pulling into a parking space in our lot. Could this heaviness be
> > related to the steering geometry? The vehicle is pulling to the right
> > and does need an alignment but I am not sure if that is the chicken or
> > the egg. In other words, is there a problem with the steering (like
> > the rack) causing the heavy steering and/or alignment issue or does
> > the alignment cause the heavy steering problem? I have had vehicles
> > over the years which have gone out of alignment and the only issue was
> > pulling to one side or another. Is the Concorde different in that
> > respect. Don't want to buy an alignment only to find out that there's
> > another issue to address which will create the need for another
> > alignment.
> > Thanks again.
>
> The noise might also be a bad power steering belt idler/tensioner pulley
> bearing. They do wear out and get noisy - good idea to replace that
> pulley (and the a.c. belt one) periodically - maybe every other belt
> change. If it was starting to really get bad, it could be binding up
> just enough to make noise and mess with your steering at low engine
> speeds but not enough drag yet to make a lot of smoke or other
> noticeable problems. You might also adjust the belt just a tad tighter
> in case there is something to slipping belt (irrespective of possible
> idler pulley bearing problems) - at least try that temporarily - even if
> you might be going what you feel is a tad too tight - to see if it is at
> all related.
>
> That's all I can think of.
>
> Oh - if you have the 2.7L engine on the Concorde, there is a pressure
> switch on the power steering at idle speeds to unload the engine. Could
> be related, but I'm grabbing at straws there. (If it has the 3.2/3.5L
> engine, it does not have that pressure switch.)
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks.
I'll take another look at the belt and pulley to see if I can discern
any problems there. And, yes, it is the 2.7 engine so I assume that it
has the switch. I believe that it is positioned on the rack itself, is
it not? What exactly does that switch do?
Thanks for all your input.

oldcarnut wrote:

> Thanks.
> I'll take another look at the belt and pulley to see if I can discern
> any problems there. And, yes, it is the 2.7 engine so I assume that it
> has the switch. I believe that it is positioned on the rack itself, is
> it not? What exactly does that switch do?
> Thanks for all your input.

The switch is locatged on the high pressure hose right next to the pump
reservoir. Look for the thing on a steering hose with wires on it.

From my '99 FSM:
"On vehicles equiped with a 2.7L engine, the poser steering system ahs a
power steering pressure switch which is used to imporve the vehicle's
idle quality. The switch improves the vehicle idle quality by
monitoring engine idle speed and causing idle speed readjustment as
necessary, due to increased pressure in the power steering system. This
increased pressure will slow down the power steering pump which puts
more load on the engine, decreasing idle speed.

"This type of condition exists when turning the front tires of the
vehicle when the vehicle is stationary and the engine is at idle speed.
The pressure switch signlas the powertrain control module to that the
poser steering system is putting addition al load on the engine. Whne
this signal is sensed by the powertrain control module, the engine idle
speed is adjusted accordingly to maintain proper engine idle speed and
quality."

NOTE: The above info. (as well as the electrical schematics showing the
switch) appears in my '99 LH car FSM, but *not* in the '02 FSM that I
also have access to (leading me to believe that that switch was
eliminated sometime between '99 and '02 model years). So I'm not sure
your car has this switch. Nor am I confident that its malfunction could
cause the symptoms you are describing.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')