Speeding Ticket Defense vs. pacing

In article >, says...

>"Bernard Farquart" > wrote in message
>news:l4UEd.11191$ig7.6580@trnddc04...
>> "jaybird" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Or you should just quit speeding. )
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---
>>> jaybird
>>
>>
>> Jaybird, I an curious. Do you think that speeding is rare?
>
>I was mainly poking fun of Alex's nit-picking over a fraction of an inch of
>tire height. If a person is speeding, they're speeding no matter how many
>rabbits you can pull out of your hat in front of the judge.
>
>In my experience speeding in excess is rare. People going about 5 over the
>limit is not because that's what people think they can get away with.

How about about more than 5mph? I usually see most drivers doing well over
the the limit + 5. This of course is during good conditions. During poor
conditions drivers will be at, or below, the speed limit.

>> If you do not, why is that? Is it possible that speed limits are
>> not properly set, or is it that most (close to all) drivers are
>> miscreant lawbreakers with no regard for public good?
>
>I don't think it's either one.
>I think it's inherent in human nature to push limits.

If you don't push the limit, you will never find the limit. Most drivers
who do push the limit, will back off when they find that it is a true limit,
not one set up to raise revenue. That the interstate limits are almost
universally ignored is proof that they are not properly set. When properly
set, by definition 85% of the driver will be obeying the limit. You will
probably chime in that drivers don't know when they need to slow down. Once
again this is proven wrong all the time. Most drivers will slow down when
the weather changes for the worse. They will drive under the speed limit
when the condition are bad. There will be a few people, probably the ones
acustomed to the poorly set limits, who think the speed limit is the
recommended speed to drive at under all conditions. Those are the folks who
need more driver training. Unfortunately the system is not set up to get
them the much needed training. It is set to reward them because they follow
the signs.

>We see it everyday in everything we do. I've never been
>opposed to good drivers being allowed to drive at their skill level, but
>then I'm not the one who makes the laws. Unfortunately we're stuck with a
>lot of stupid people we have to compete with on the road.

We shouldn't have to dumb down everything to the level of the incompetent
folks. We should be trying to get the poor drivers more training to get
their skills up to higher levels. By doing that you benefit all road users.
By dumbing down the laws you are actually making the roads less safe.

>> Really, I am serious since this is the basis for most of the
>> interaction between you and the regulars here.
>> What is your perspective?
>
>While I know that it isn't a popular opinion in here, I truly think that
>speed plays an important factor in vehicle collisions. I also think that
>people will push limits to the point they think they can get away with it.

When you treat people like children, they will act like children. When you
treat an adult like a child, they will have less respect for you. When
you say adults will try to do what they think they can get away with, you
are treating them like children.

>It is true that speed, in itself with no other factors present, does not
>kill. However, there are an infinite number of factors involved while
>driving a vehicle on our roadways.

A decent driver will take the many factors into account when they decide
how fast they will drive down the road. People can make the right decisions,
and for the most part they do. That our death rate is as low as it is is
evidence of that. If the powers that be made more decisions based on
making roads safer rather than basig their deicisions on how they can make
more money to spend on pet projects, the death rate would be even lower.
-------------
Alex

True that they do slow down in bad conditions. Unfortunately the truth
is that they never slow down -enough-. I live on a US hwy. Slick
conditions (common in winter) when reasonable speed would be 35 the
traffic is doing 50 or better. Even good drivers almost never have a
feel for stopping distances on snow/ice as they rarely drive on them
and very few of them have ever gone out an practiced in those
conditions.

Harry K

True that they do slow down in bad conditions. Unfortunately the truth
is that they never slow down -enough-. I live on a US hwy. Slick
conditions (common in winter) when reasonable speed would be 35 the
traffic is doing 50 or better. Even good drivers almost never have a
feel for stopping distances on snow/ice as they rarely drive on them
and very few of them have ever gone out an practiced in those
conditions.

Harry K

True that they do slow down in bad conditions. Unfortunately the truth
is that they never slow down -enough-. I live on a US hwy. Slick
conditions (common in winter) when reasonable speed would be 35 the
traffic is doing 50 or better. Even good drivers almost never have a
feel for stopping distances on snow/ice as they rarely drive on them
and very few of them have ever gone out an practiced in those
conditions.

Harry K

True that they do slow down in bad conditions. Unfortunately the truth
is that they never slow down -enough-. I live on a US hwy. Slick
conditions (common in winter) when reasonable speed would be 35 the
traffic is doing 50 or better. Even good drivers almost never have a
feel for stopping distances on snow/ice as they rarely drive on them
and very few of them have ever gone out an practiced in those
conditions.

Harry K

"Motorhead Lawyer" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> "speed, in itself with no other factors present, does not kill." is
> *not* the 'Company Line'. We both know that.

Well, it kinda is, just in different terms. If you think the phrase "Speed
Kills" has that purely literal meaning, then I can see why everyone is
confused. There are always other factors present on the roads.

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

"Motorhead Lawyer" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> "speed, in itself with no other factors present, does not kill." is
> *not* the 'Company Line'. We both know that.

Well, it kinda is, just in different terms. If you think the phrase "Speed
Kills" has that purely literal meaning, then I can see why everyone is
confused. There are always other factors present on the roads.

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

"Alex Rodriguez" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, says...
>
>>"Bernard Farquart" > wrote in message
>>news:l4UEd.11191$ig7.6580@trnddc04...
>>> "jaybird" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Or you should just quit speeding. )
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---
>>>> jaybird
>>>
>>>
>>> Jaybird, I an curious. Do you think that speeding is rare?
>>
>>I was mainly poking fun of Alex's nit-picking over a fraction of an inch
>>of
>>tire height. If a person is speeding, they're speeding no matter how many
>>rabbits you can pull out of your hat in front of the judge.
>>
>>In my experience speeding in excess is rare. People going about 5 over
>>the
>>limit is not because that's what people think they can get away with.
>
> How about about more than 5mph? I usually see most drivers doing well
> over
> the the limit + 5. This of course is during good conditions. During poor
> conditions drivers will be at, or below, the speed limit.

You can "what if" it all day long. If someone is driving more than 5 over,
then they're doing so at a greater risk but are comfortable with the fact
that they won't be caught or are willing to deal with the consequences if
they do.

>
>>> If you do not, why is that? Is it possible that speed limits are
>>> not properly set, or is it that most (close to all) drivers are
>>> miscreant lawbreakers with no regard for public good?
>>
>>I don't think it's either one.
>>I think it's inherent in human nature to push limits.
>
> If you don't push the limit, you will never find the limit. Most drivers
> who do push the limit, will back off when they find that it is a true
> limit,
> not one set up to raise revenue. That the interstate limits are almost
> universally ignored is proof that they are not properly set. When
> properly
> set, by definition 85% of the driver will be obeying the limit. You will
> probably chime in that drivers don't know when they need to slow down.
> Once
> again this is proven wrong all the time. Most drivers will slow down when
> the weather changes for the worse. They will drive under the speed limit
> when the condition are bad. There will be a few people, probably the ones
> acustomed to the poorly set limits, who think the speed limit is the
> recommended speed to drive at under all conditions. Those are the folks
> who
> need more driver training. Unfortunately the system is not set up to get
> them the much needed training. It is set to reward them because they
> follow
> the signs.

I know that your opinion is different. We've been over this same argument
several times already. We aren't driving for the individual, we're driving
as a society and everyone has to make accomodations for everyone else
they're sharing the road with.

>
>>We see it everyday in everything we do. I've never been
>>opposed to good drivers being allowed to drive at their skill level, but
>>then I'm not the one who makes the laws. Unfortunately we're stuck with a
>>lot of stupid people we have to compete with on the road.
>
> We shouldn't have to dumb down everything to the level of the incompetent
> folks. We should be trying to get the poor drivers more training to get
> their skills up to higher levels. By doing that you benefit all road
> users.
> By dumbing down the laws you are actually making the roads less safe.

I don't agree that by tightening traffic laws it makes it less safe, but I
do agree that we need more driver training, stricter standards, less
distractions in the vehicle, etc.

>
>>> Really, I am serious since this is the basis for most of the
>>> interaction between you and the regulars here.
>>> What is your perspective?
>>
>>While I know that it isn't a popular opinion in here, I truly think that
>>speed plays an important factor in vehicle collisions. I also think that
>>people will push limits to the point they think they can get away with it.
>
> When you treat people like children, they will act like children. When
> you
> treat an adult like a child, they will have less respect for you. When
> you say adults will try to do what they think they can get away with, you
> are treating them like children.

If you don't think that adults push limits, then I can't help you understand
my point any better. I'm sorry, I didn't create the human mind. You'll
have to take that up with someone else.

>
>>It is true that speed, in itself with no other factors present, does not
>>kill. However, there are an infinite number of factors involved while
>>driving a vehicle on our roadways.
>
> A decent driver will take the many factors into account when they decide
> how fast they will drive down the road. People can make the right
> decisions,
> and for the most part they do. That our death rate is as low as it is is
> evidence of that. If the powers that be made more decisions based on
> making roads safer rather than basig their deicisions on how they can make
> more money to spend on pet projects, the death rate would be even lower.

I don't agree that's the answer to the problem, but then again I don't think
we've ever agreed on this topic. I don't think that'll ever change.

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

"Alex Rodriguez" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, says...
>
>>"Bernard Farquart" > wrote in message
>>news:l4UEd.11191$ig7.6580@trnddc04...
>>> "jaybird" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Or you should just quit speeding. )
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---
>>>> jaybird
>>>
>>>
>>> Jaybird, I an curious. Do you think that speeding is rare?
>>
>>I was mainly poking fun of Alex's nit-picking over a fraction of an inch
>>of
>>tire height. If a person is speeding, they're speeding no matter how many
>>rabbits you can pull out of your hat in front of the judge.
>>
>>In my experience speeding in excess is rare. People going about 5 over
>>the
>>limit is not because that's what people think they can get away with.
>
> How about about more than 5mph? I usually see most drivers doing well
> over
> the the limit + 5. This of course is during good conditions. During poor
> conditions drivers will be at, or below, the speed limit.

You can "what if" it all day long. If someone is driving more than 5 over,
then they're doing so at a greater risk but are comfortable with the fact
that they won't be caught or are willing to deal with the consequences if
they do.

>
>>> If you do not, why is that? Is it possible that speed limits are
>>> not properly set, or is it that most (close to all) drivers are
>>> miscreant lawbreakers with no regard for public good?
>>
>>I don't think it's either one.
>>I think it's inherent in human nature to push limits.
>
> If you don't push the limit, you will never find the limit. Most drivers
> who do push the limit, will back off when they find that it is a true
> limit,
> not one set up to raise revenue. That the interstate limits are almost
> universally ignored is proof that they are not properly set. When
> properly
> set, by definition 85% of the driver will be obeying the limit. You will
> probably chime in that drivers don't know when they need to slow down.
> Once
> again this is proven wrong all the time. Most drivers will slow down when
> the weather changes for the worse. They will drive under the speed limit
> when the condition are bad. There will be a few people, probably the ones
> acustomed to the poorly set limits, who think the speed limit is the
> recommended speed to drive at under all conditions. Those are the folks
> who
> need more driver training. Unfortunately the system is not set up to get
> them the much needed training. It is set to reward them because they
> follow
> the signs.

I know that your opinion is different. We've been over this same argument
several times already. We aren't driving for the individual, we're driving
as a society and everyone has to make accomodations for everyone else
they're sharing the road with.

>
>>We see it everyday in everything we do. I've never been
>>opposed to good drivers being allowed to drive at their skill level, but
>>then I'm not the one who makes the laws. Unfortunately we're stuck with a
>>lot of stupid people we have to compete with on the road.
>
> We shouldn't have to dumb down everything to the level of the incompetent
> folks. We should be trying to get the poor drivers more training to get
> their skills up to higher levels. By doing that you benefit all road
> users.
> By dumbing down the laws you are actually making the roads less safe.

I don't agree that by tightening traffic laws it makes it less safe, but I
do agree that we need more driver training, stricter standards, less
distractions in the vehicle, etc.

>
>>> Really, I am serious since this is the basis for most of the
>>> interaction between you and the regulars here.
>>> What is your perspective?
>>
>>While I know that it isn't a popular opinion in here, I truly think that
>>speed plays an important factor in vehicle collisions. I also think that
>>people will push limits to the point they think they can get away with it.
>
> When you treat people like children, they will act like children. When
> you
> treat an adult like a child, they will have less respect for you. When
> you say adults will try to do what they think they can get away with, you
> are treating them like children.

If you don't think that adults push limits, then I can't help you understand
my point any better. I'm sorry, I didn't create the human mind. You'll
have to take that up with someone else.

>
>>It is true that speed, in itself with no other factors present, does not
>>kill. However, there are an infinite number of factors involved while
>>driving a vehicle on our roadways.
>
> A decent driver will take the many factors into account when they decide
> how fast they will drive down the road. People can make the right
> decisions,
> and for the most part they do. That our death rate is as low as it is is
> evidence of that. If the powers that be made more decisions based on
> making roads safer rather than basig their deicisions on how they can make
> more money to spend on pet projects, the death rate would be even lower.

I don't agree that's the answer to the problem, but then again I don't think
we've ever agreed on this topic. I don't think that'll ever change.

--
---
jaybird
---
I am not the cause of your problems.
My actions are the result of your actions.
Your life is not my fault.

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:54:14 GMT, "jaybird" > wrote:

>>
>> Jaybird, I an curious. Do you think that speeding is rare?
>
>I was mainly poking fun of Alex's nit-picking over a fraction of an inch of
>tire height. If a person is speeding, they're speeding no matter how many
>rabbits you can pull out of your hat in front of the judge.
>
>In my experience speeding in excess is rare. People going about 5 over the
>limit is not because that's what people think they can get away with.

Hmm - I've never gotten a speeding ticket for less than 17 over the
limit.