NR2003 entry fee $100. How many new guys pay it?

In article .com>,
(jason moyer) wrote:

> I wonder if people are going to still be gaga about rFactor
> after it's been out 3 months

Life is a triumph of hope over experience. The journey is what
matters, not the destination.

Andrew "fortune cookie" McP

JOE, JOE, HELLO?

Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was specifically
eventually patched, most of the patches were for funky systems specs some
were for gameplay, however NSR it is the exact opposite. They shipped 'out
the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as not only a sim, but for
multiplayer. Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the
not only built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and
or patch, what can EA honeslty bragg about? I know this is what you mean
when you post that people popped money out for Papy "turds?" lol I find
that very funny.

Here's you...
"Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and as great
as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..."
Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's Bull****, and
on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo?

Here's the rest of the sim racing community,
"Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in walmart) are
not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for the same dollar price"
BOLOGNA!!!!.


Joe enlightened us with:
> How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc
> along the years-long rocky road that ended with NR2003?
>
> While NR2003 may be way ahead of NSR Papy's lead shrinks when NSR is
> stacked up against earlier Papy releases such as NR2002, NASCAR4,
> etc. Each of these had the advantage of being the best available at
> the time but each of these still had glaring faults that propted
> shrill condemnations that sound remarkably like those now heaped upon
> NSR.
> The seeming eternal wait for EA's promised "parade of patches" does
> not mean another patch is not on the way any more than did the
> equally eternal wait for a patch from Papy. The appearent
> impossibility of getting any word at all from EA about future patches
> (if any) is remarkably similar to the stony silence that was Papy's
> non-reply to the pleadings of its fans. Both Papy then and EA now
> seem content to ignore fans and let them stew in their own jucies
> wondering if/when a future patch will fix one or another glaring
> fault (remember wall-riding?).
> Assuming that the one patch EA did release is the only patch and such
> things as are still broken will remain broken until "NSR2" hits the
> market; will this not also equal Papy's practice of
> one-patch-per-game? The current running joke in NSR forums that "EA
> will be realeasing the next patch as NSR2 and will sell for $39.95"
> originated in the Papy forums but with "Papy" in place of "EA".
>
> Goggle reviews of NR2003, NR2002, NR4, etc and count the number of
> comments along the lines of "In the new version Papy FINALLY fixed
> "this" long standing fault but "that other trouble" still plagues the
> sim."
> Are there any here who doubt that Papy *could* have patched NR2002 to
> equal NR2003? Did Papy "screw" us when they chose to call the NR2002
> patch NR2003 and sell us the patch for $49.95. Shoving the "screw" a
> little deeper into the fans, what possible reason did Papy have for
> "screwing" us out of NR2002's Darrell Waltrip narrated "Track
> Tours"? The Papy fanbois took the elimination of the Track Tours as
> an opportunity to puff themselves up and present themselves as NASCAR
> GODS who's exalted expertise rendered the Waltrip tours an insult to
> their knowledge and skill but I somehow think Papy had a different
> motive for eliminating the Waltrip tours than worshipful deference to
> the over-inflated egos of this self-proclaimed pantheon.
>
> While all of this is little help to the current incarnation of NSR it
> does lend some reason for hope that NSR has a future.Whatever NSR's
> current shortcomings there are few who would deny that the current
> code is a potential Papy beater. There is no need for EA to start
> from scratch, they need only make improvements on the code they
> have.The fact that NR2003 is selling for so much should be a clue to
> EA that there are a lot of folks willing to throw a lot of money at
> them if the needed improvements are made. I find it hard to believe
> that EA paid NASCAR all that money for the name only to let NSR die
> after one version and one patch.
> It may well be that NSR will never equal NR2003 and that NR2003 will
> become the next "Grand Prix Legends" as the best available year after
> year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any
> bets.
>
>
>
> "Darus" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> There's a reason you can get a "new release" for $30 (and many places
>> are lower than that) and NR2003 continues to command top dollar. NSR
>> is a joke and the alleged parade of patches that they promised has
>> fallen thru and left the users who dropped $50 (like myself) on that
>> turd by the wayside. I GLADLY just paid $52 for a used copy of
>> NR2003 off Ebay and thought I got a deal. I see plenty of $75+
>> auctions going on, but have to wonder how many ppl. are really
>> buying at those prices.... NR2003 has a solid base of users and until
>> "someone" else can
>> develop a stock car sim that compares, NR2003 will be on many hard
>> drives. As for recruiting new members at those prices, you may be
>> right. I suspect anyone who was interested jumped on board when it
>> came out and in the following year or so before Papy announced the
>> end of the series.

"Darus" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I don't know if you bought NSR, but I did and I can't seem find any of
> those things. The locked/unlocked rear diff issue is a blunder that CAN
> be fixed, but prevents online gaming with a mismatch error. The text
> files are littered with references to Thunder 04 and 03 and IIRC, F1C.
> Multiplayer...well let's not go there. One of the devs of NSR did a Q&A
> at OLR I think and said that beta testers were using a game that was
> numerous versions past the retail one. WTF is that? Well, where is the
> updated code!?!?!?!?
>

EA, the distributors of GTR, think nothing of flat out lying as they did
in various magazines recently with comments like "Flawless multiplay", etc.
This is a money making outfit - the product only needs to be good enough to
sell, promote and fool the average parent or noob with words like "official"
and "simulator".

They are a bunch of arseholes, as are most in the racing simulator
business atm.

I am guessing that you meant NSR, not GTR? My box is clearly marked
"10tacle Studios", not EA. However, you are right that they are a money
making outfit, but then, what business isn't out to make a buck?
Charities? The question is, how much money did they make on this pile
of excrement? Figuring the cost of the NASCAR license is pretty steep,
how many copies of a game would they have to move? Now, judging by the
overall "tone" of most messages posted about NSR, I'd submit that there
weren't many after the initial release in Feb.. Of course, they prob.
made up for it in console version where the 8 y/o's won't care or
notice the difference.

Dave Henrie wrote:
> I'd start googling for fps improvements from the older titles and see if
> you can find something to help your system. Hanje's site is pretty
> thorough.

For comparison, I can run the v8 mod at any track with a full field and
it never dips below 50 fps.

"Plowboy" > wrote in message
news:AYzBe.70805$%Z2.67811@lakeread08...
> JOE, JOE, HELLO?
>

Hi

> Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was specifically
> eventually patched,

You are correct. I also said as much with "Papy's practice of
one-patch-per-game" I am glad you agree.
By the way, why did you put the quotes around "version"

>most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for gameplay

You say "most" of the patches were for system specs and "some" were for
gameplay? GOOD FOR YOU! Your grasp of the obvious is impressive!
(By "funky systems specs" I assume you mean correcting code that was causing
lock-ups, desktop drops and the like.)

>, however NSR it is the exact opposite.

You say that each and every version of NR was patched. This is true. It is
also true that each and every version of NSR was patched. How, in your mind,
does this make NSR "the exact opposite"?

> They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as not
> only a sim, but for multiplayer.

An opinion many disagree with. There are few who would not acknowledge that
NR2003 is superior to NSR but your "UTTERLY worthless" characterization of
NSR is simple minded. (A pattern emerges.)

> Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only
> built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or
> patch, what can EA honeslty bragg about?

In my post I said that the volume of complaints thrown at Papy were about
the same as that now leveled at EA and NSR By what mental process did you
take these statements to mean I think Papy "got off easy"?

I also said that every Papy release "had the advantage of being the best
available at the time" Run this through that mental process of yours and
tell me how you interpret it.

Just where did I imply EA had anything to bragg about?

Are you familier with the term "Straw Man"?

>I know this is what you mean when you post that people popped money out for
>Papy "turds?" lol I find that very funny.

The name "Plowboy" carries with it a stereotype you do little to dispell.

Pay attention while I explain. The term "turds" was introduced by Darius in
the post I replied to. I repeated his term, *put it in quotes* and applied
it to NR2002, NR4, etc NOT to label these as "turds" but only as a mechanism
to point out that these were, like NSR, also inferior to NR2003. You seem to
be the only one in the thread who did not grasp this. In order to avoid such
misunderstandings in the future I suggest you announce your intention to
participate in a thread before you make any actual comments. That way others
involved in the discussion will know to write at a grade level less likely
to cause you the confusion you display throughout your post.

>
> Here's you...
> "Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and as
> great as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..."
> Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's Bull****,
> and on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo?

An example of your rapier wit?

In order to be effective, ridicule must be based on and aimed at some
observable aspects of the subject ridiculed. Without this anchor attempts at
ridicule are only pathetic, simple-minded name calling. There are only a
few posts from me in this thread so you should have no trouble at all
providing us with a cut-and-paste of the anchor on which you tie your
attempt at ridicule. Just where did I say anything remotely similar to your
"Here's you"?

Perhaps you would also grace us with an equally clever "Here's Darius" so
you can gibber and giggle at him for saying: "Joe You make some valid
points."

>
> Here's the rest of the sim racing community,
> "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in walmart) are
> not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for the same dollar
> price"
> BOLOGNA!!!!.

Forgive me Plowboy. I did not realize you are the spokesman for "the rest of
the sim racing community"

If you are saying that NSR (Mongoose Bicycles) is "not bad compared to" and
is "the same dollar price" as NR2003 (Schwin) then yes, that is indeed
"BOLOGNA!!!!"
Just where exactly did I ever state otherwise?


>
>
> Joe enlightened us with:
>> How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc
>> along the years-long rocky road that ended with NR2003?
>>
>> While NR2003 may be way ahead of NSR Papy's lead shrinks when NSR is
>> stacked up against earlier Papy releases such as NR2002, NASCAR4,
>> etc. Each of these had the advantage of being the best available at
>> the time but each of these still had glaring faults that propted
>> shrill condemnations that sound remarkably like those now heaped upon
>> NSR.
>> The seeming eternal wait for EA's promised "parade of patches" does
>> not mean another patch is not on the way any more than did the
>> equally eternal wait for a patch from Papy. The appearent
>> impossibility of getting any word at all from EA about future patches
>> (if any) is remarkably similar to the stony silence that was Papy's
>> non-reply to the pleadings of its fans. Both Papy then and EA now
>> seem content to ignore fans and let them stew in their own jucies
>> wondering if/when a future patch will fix one or another glaring
>> fault (remember wall-riding?).
>> Assuming that the one patch EA did release is the only patch and such
>> things as are still broken will remain broken until "NSR2" hits the
>> market; will this not also equal Papy's practice of
>> one-patch-per-game? The current running joke in NSR forums that "EA
>> will be realeasing the next patch as NSR2 and will sell for $39.95"
>> originated in the Papy forums but with "Papy" in place of "EA".
>>
>> Goggle reviews of NR2003, NR2002, NR4, etc and count the number of
>> comments along the lines of "In the new version Papy FINALLY fixed
>> "this" long standing fault but "that other trouble" still plagues the
>> sim."
>> Are there any here who doubt that Papy *could* have patched NR2002 to
>> equal NR2003? Did Papy "screw" us when they chose to call the NR2002
>> patch NR2003 and sell us the patch for $49.95. Shoving the "screw" a
>> little deeper into the fans, what possible reason did Papy have for
>> "screwing" us out of NR2002's Darrell Waltrip narrated "Track
>> Tours"? The Papy fanbois took the elimination of the Track Tours as
>> an opportunity to puff themselves up and present themselves as NASCAR
>> GODS who's exalted expertise rendered the Waltrip tours an insult to
>> their knowledge and skill but I somehow think Papy had a different
>> motive for eliminating the Waltrip tours than worshipful deference to
>> the over-inflated egos of this self-proclaimed pantheon.
>>
>> While all of this is little help to the current incarnation of NSR it
>> does lend some reason for hope that NSR has a future.Whatever NSR's
>> current shortcomings there are few who would deny that the current
>> code is a potential Papy beater. There is no need for EA to start
>> from scratch, they need only make improvements on the code they
>> have.The fact that NR2003 is selling for so much should be a clue to
>> EA that there are a lot of folks willing to throw a lot of money at
>> them if the needed improvements are made. I find it hard to believe
>> that EA paid NASCAR all that money for the name only to let NSR die
>> after one version and one patch.
>> It may well be that NSR will never equal NR2003 and that NR2003 will
>> become the next "Grand Prix Legends" as the best available year after
>> year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any
>> bets.
>>

EA did not kill Papy, NASCAR did.
EA may have bought exclusive license for NASCAR but only because NASCAR
decided to *sell* EA exclusive license. EA may have wished Papy gone but it
was NASCAR who granted that wish.

The balance of your post lists some of the reasons NR2003 is bringing in
such high prices while NSR sits in the bargan bin. I have NSR and have seen
each of these and more. You have no argument from me on your assessment of
NSR.

I think we here can all agree that NR2003 is superior to the current NSR. I
think we can also agree that NSR would already be a Papy beater if only the
darn thing worked like it was supposed to. So the question is, will EA fix
the darn code?

NASCAR demanded a LOT of money for that exclusive license and EA paid it. I
look at what EA did with other licenses they hold for football, baseball,
basketball, etc and I cannot believe EA will abandon NSR after only one
version and one patch. If I am wrong my copy of NS2003 is right beside my
copy of NSR and you will find me online near the end of the pack battling
for 18th place while also trying to stay out of the way of the leaders who
are about to lap me. (I said I liked racing, I never said I was good at
it.(-

"Darus" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Joe:
>
> You make some valid points. NR2003 is/was a pretty polished product
> when released and it was the result of the evolution of the sim from N1
> thru NR2002. However, MY biggest gripe with NSR is the fact that they
> bought the EXCLUSIVE license for NASCAR, put Papy out of the stock car
> sim business, and then announced plans to release a "true to life"
> stock car sim. (I now read from the rear of the box of NSR) Phrases
> like "realistic physics model", "true to life feeling", "definitive
> racing experience" and the mother of all lies "ALL NEW GAME ENGINE".
>
> I don't know if you bought NSR, but I did and I can't seem find any of
> those things. The locked/unlocked rear diff issue is a blunder that CAN
> be fixed, but prevents online gaming with a mismatch error. The text
> files are littered with references to Thunder 04 and 03 and IIRC, F1C.
> Multiplayer...well let's not go there. One of the devs of NSR did a Q&A
> at OLR I think and said that beta testers were using a game that was
> numerous versions past the retail one. WTF is that? Well, where is the
> updated code!?!?!?!?
>
> Look at it this way, NSR SHOULD have started at the level that Papy
> ended at. EA had the chance to see the progression of the NRxxxx series
> and learn what worked and what didn't. They should have then
> incorporated all the good things and then added to it. Instead it was 1
> step forward (by Papy) and 2 steps back (NSR).
>

On my GTR box it is clearly marked - "Distributed by Electronic Arts".
It's all the same arseholes.

Nothing wrong with making a buck - unless your doing it by producing
garbage and packaging that garbage as something other than garbage. Simbin,
EA, 10tacle are a bunch of arseholes taking advantage of a non policed
market.

The arseholes handling the licensing for Nascar and F1 are exactly the
same - no interest in good products, just money. This will continue until
someone sticks their boot in their arse and keeps it in their arse until
they learn to do as they're told. That's the only way to deal with
disobedient little children.


"Darus" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am guessing that you meant NSR, not GTR? My box is clearly marked
> "10tacle Studios", not EA. However, you are right that they are a money
> making outfit, but then, what business isn't out to make a buck?
> Charities? The question is, how much money did they make on this pile
> of excrement? Figuring the cost of the NASCAR license is pretty steep,
> how many copies of a game would they have to move? Now, judging by the
> overall "tone" of most messages posted about NSR, I'd submit that there
> weren't many after the initial release in Feb.. Of course, they prob.
> made up for it in console version where the 8 y/o's won't care or
> notice the difference.
>

I think it's forgotten that Each version of NRx, once patched, had NO
SHOWSTOPPERS.

You can't say that about any of the EA Games.

-Larry

"Joe" > wrote in message
news:6kJBe.64222$R21.47724@lakeread06...
>
>
> "Plowboy" > wrote in message
> news:AYzBe.70805$%Z2.67811@lakeread08...
>> JOE, JOE, HELLO?
>>
>
> Hi
>
>> Each and every "version" of NR that papy put out the door was
>> specifically eventually patched,
>
> You are correct. I also said as much with "Papy's practice of
> one-patch-per-game" I am glad you agree.
> By the way, why did you put the quotes around "version"
>
>>most of the patches were for funky systems specs some were for gameplay
>
> You say "most" of the patches were for system specs and "some" were for
> gameplay? GOOD FOR YOU! Your grasp of the obvious is impressive!
> (By "funky systems specs" I assume you mean correcting code that was
> causing lock-ups, desktop drops and the like.)
>
>>, however NSR it is the exact opposite.
>
> You say that each and every version of NR was patched. This is true. It is
> also true that each and every version of NSR was patched. How, in your
> mind, does this make NSR "the exact opposite"?
>
>> They shipped 'out the door' something that is UTTERLY worthless as not
>> only a sim, but for multiplayer.
>
> An opinion many disagree with. There are few who would not acknowledge
> that NR2003 is superior to NSR but your "UTTERLY worthless"
> characterization of NSR is simple minded. (A pattern emerges.)
>
>> Papyrus might have gotten off easy, in your mind because the not only
>> built the damn ruler but set the bar higher with every release and or
>> patch, what can EA honeslty bragg about?
>
> In my post I said that the volume of complaints thrown at Papy were about
> the same as that now leveled at EA and NSR By what mental process did you
> take these statements to mean I think Papy "got off easy"?
>
> I also said that every Papy release "had the advantage of being the best
> available at the time" Run this through that mental process of yours and
> tell me how you interpret it.
>
> Just where did I imply EA had anything to bragg about?
>
> Are you familier with the term "Straw Man"?
>
>>I know this is what you mean when you post that people popped money out
>>for Papy "turds?" lol I find that very funny.
>
> The name "Plowboy" carries with it a stereotype you do little to dispell.
>
> Pay attention while I explain. The term "turds" was introduced by Darius
> in the post I replied to. I repeated his term, *put it in quotes* and
> applied it to NR2002, NR4, etc NOT to label these as "turds" but only as a
> mechanism to point out that these were, like NSR, also inferior to NR2003.
> You seem to be the only one in the thread who did not grasp this. In order
> to avoid such misunderstandings in the future I suggest you announce your
> intention to participate in a thread before you make any actual comments.
> That way others involved in the discussion will know to write at a grade
> level less likely to cause you the confusion you display throughout your
> post.
>
>>
>> Here's you...
>> "Uhm, UUUUHHHHM , well it is like a great racing game just like and as
>> great as 'Need For Speed' but you go around a circular track..."
>> Zero support. BTW I have tried most driving games, even EA's Bull****,
>> and on the PC, what you playing, Nintendo?
>
> An example of your rapier wit?
>
> In order to be effective, ridicule must be based on and aimed at some
> observable aspects of the subject ridiculed. Without this anchor attempts
> at ridicule are only pathetic, simple-minded name calling. There are only
> a few posts from me in this thread so you should have no trouble at all
> providing us with a cut-and-paste of the anchor on which you tie your
> attempt at ridicule. Just where did I say anything remotely similar to
> your "Here's you"?
>
> Perhaps you would also grace us with an equally clever "Here's Darius" so
> you can gibber and giggle at him for saying: "Joe You make some valid
> points."
>
>>
>> Here's the rest of the sim racing community,
>> "Need For Speed?" That is like saying Mongoose Bicycles (in walmart) are
>> not bad compared to Schwin's at the bicycle shop, for the same dollar
>> price"
>> BOLOGNA!!!!.
>
> Forgive me Plowboy. I did not realize you are the spokesman for "the rest
> of the sim racing community"
>
> If you are saying that NSR (Mongoose Bicycles) is "not bad compared to"
> and is "the same dollar price" as NR2003 (Schwin) then yes, that is indeed
> "BOLOGNA!!!!"
> Just where exactly did I ever state otherwise?
>
>
>>
>>
>> Joe enlightened us with:
>>> How much money did users drop on such "turds" as NR2002, NR4, etc
>>> along the years-long rocky road that ended with NR2003?
>>>
>>> While NR2003 may be way ahead of NSR Papy's lead shrinks when NSR is
>>> stacked up against earlier Papy releases such as NR2002, NASCAR4,
>>> etc. Each of these had the advantage of being the best available at
>>> the time but each of these still had glaring faults that propted
>>> shrill condemnations that sound remarkably like those now heaped upon
>>> NSR.
>>> The seeming eternal wait for EA's promised "parade of patches" does
>>> not mean another patch is not on the way any more than did the
>>> equally eternal wait for a patch from Papy. The appearent
>>> impossibility of getting any word at all from EA about future patches
>>> (if any) is remarkably similar to the stony silence that was Papy's
>>> non-reply to the pleadings of its fans. Both Papy then and EA now
>>> seem content to ignore fans and let them stew in their own jucies
>>> wondering if/when a future patch will fix one or another glaring
>>> fault (remember wall-riding?).
>>> Assuming that the one patch EA did release is the only patch and such
>>> things as are still broken will remain broken until "NSR2" hits the
>>> market; will this not also equal Papy's practice of
>>> one-patch-per-game? The current running joke in NSR forums that "EA
>>> will be realeasing the next patch as NSR2 and will sell for $39.95"
>>> originated in the Papy forums but with "Papy" in place of "EA".
>>>
>>> Goggle reviews of NR2003, NR2002, NR4, etc and count the number of
>>> comments along the lines of "In the new version Papy FINALLY fixed
>>> "this" long standing fault but "that other trouble" still plagues the
>>> sim."
>>> Are there any here who doubt that Papy *could* have patched NR2002 to
>>> equal NR2003? Did Papy "screw" us when they chose to call the NR2002
>>> patch NR2003 and sell us the patch for $49.95. Shoving the "screw" a
>>> little deeper into the fans, what possible reason did Papy have for
>>> "screwing" us out of NR2002's Darrell Waltrip narrated "Track
>>> Tours"? The Papy fanbois took the elimination of the Track Tours as
>>> an opportunity to puff themselves up and present themselves as NASCAR
>>> GODS who's exalted expertise rendered the Waltrip tours an insult to
>>> their knowledge and skill but I somehow think Papy had a different
>>> motive for eliminating the Waltrip tours than worshipful deference to
>>> the over-inflated egos of this self-proclaimed pantheon.
>>>
>>> While all of this is little help to the current incarnation of NSR it
>>> does lend some reason for hope that NSR has a future.Whatever NSR's
>>> current shortcomings there are few who would deny that the current
>>> code is a potential Papy beater. There is no need for EA to start
>>> from scratch, they need only make improvements on the code they
>>> have.The fact that NR2003 is selling for so much should be a clue to
>>> EA that there are a lot of folks willing to throw a lot of money at
>>> them if the needed improvements are made. I find it hard to believe
>>> that EA paid NASCAR all that money for the name only to let NSR die
>>> after one version and one patch.
>>> It may well be that NSR will never equal NR2003 and that NR2003 will
>>> become the next "Grand Prix Legends" as the best available year after
>>> year after year but I think it is a little too early to place any
>>> bets.
>>>
>
>

I'm not sure where the hate mail for GTR came from, as this WAS a
NSR/NR2003 thread, but I have no problem with GTR. What's yours?

As for the licensing authorities for F1 and NASCAR not interested in
good products, I guess I'll have to step up and let you in on a dirty
little secret......come closer.....closer now......a little
more......EVERYONE DOES IT!!!!!!!!! If "it" <happens> to be a good
product, it's a bonus. What is important is that it SELLS. And EA being
a marketing powerhouse, they SELL A LOT OF CRAP. No matter if it cars,
VCR's, clothing, rugs, whatever, quality is not the priority any
longer, QUANTITY is. If we want to start a "back in MY day, products
lasted for 100 years" thread, perhaps there is a "Made in the USA"
usenet group out there.

The question now returns to the original topic, (sort of): how many
copies of NSR did they need to sell to justify more work on it and thus
further patches? Judging by how fast the price fell out on NSR at the
big name retailers near me, not a whole lot. Therefore, the "entry
price" of $50+ for NR2003 IS the price that must be paid to gain entry
to the true "King of Ovals".