41 MPG city Fusion Hybrid more efficient than Camry Hybrid's 33 MPG

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:30:02 -0500, "Tomes" > wrote:

>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
>> ray :
>>
>>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
>>> > recharging the batteries.

Snip
>
>When one drives the Prius, one uses the engine plenty enough [along with
>regenerative braking] to stuff charge into the battery. It stuffs plenty of
>electrons in there because it is designed pretty well to do that. It's
>going in there anyway, regardless of how it then subsequently uses those
>negatively charged critters up again. Sometimes it uses it for propulsion,
>sometimes for the radio and lights, sometimes for the AC. My position here
>is that it stuffs enough into the batteries during normal driving that it
>does not need to run the ICE _extra_ [and extra is the important word here]
>to recharge the batteries. Extra. In my Prius it never discharges the
>traction battery enough to turn on the ICE solely because the battery is low
>during normal driving. It only will do that if I am sitting still and
>running electric stuff because the car is not stuffing the battery while not
>moving, so only then does it use the ICE solely for recharging.
>
>Therefore, running the AC _under normal conditions_ does _not_ make the gas
>engine run more versus not running the AC.
>
>When I say that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" I mean that it could
>use more reclaimed energy than it chooses to use, and has spare to run the
>AC without engaging the ICE just for that. It could use more of the energy
>in the batteries and get slightly higher MPG, but Toyota chose to manage it
>the way it does for battery longevity reasons. Also, it does it does
>sometimes waste energy on purpose when the battery is 'full' by spinning the
>engine with no gas feed. This is reclaimed energy that is not used.
>Tomes

Ahhh.. the benefits of a liberal education!!

E=MC2 (hard to use super and subscripts with text-only)

One of the things this formula proves is that energy can't be created
or destroyed, only changed. Your explanation implies that Toyota
violates the laws of physics.

Where do you think the energy to run the AC comes from? Where do you
think the energy you reclaim comes from? Where do you think the
energy to move the car comes from? ALL of it comes from gasoline! If
you are driving down the highway and you turn on your radio, your car
uses a little bit MORE gasoline to generate the electricity needed to
run the radio. The same thing happens when you turn on the AC.

All of the hybrid's technology is used for one thing and one thing
only, increased performance off the line. Regenerative braking can
recapture, AT MOST, about 5% of the total energy used and it can't
recapture anything if you don't brake. This recaptured energy is more
than used up by the increased energy needed to haul around the
electrics the hybrid requires. Take out the battery,
generator/electric motor, added transmission complexity, controls and
wiring and the car would get even better mileage. But you wouldn't
buy it because it couldn't get out of it's own way.

If you want to fool yourself into thinking that a hybrid car is "Green
Technology" then go for it. But you really should learn some basic
physics (something like what was taught in high school around the time
of WWII).

Jack j

"Retired VIP" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:30:02 -0500, "Tomes" > wrote:
>
>>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
>>> ray :
>>>
>>>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
>>>> > recharging the batteries.
>
> Snip
>>
>>When one drives the Prius, one uses the engine plenty enough [along with
>>regenerative braking] to stuff charge into the battery. It stuffs plenty
>>of
>>electrons in there because it is designed pretty well to do that. It's
>>going in there anyway, regardless of how it then subsequently uses those
>>negatively charged critters up again. Sometimes it uses it for
>>propulsion,
>>sometimes for the radio and lights, sometimes for the AC. My position
>>here
>>is that it stuffs enough into the batteries during normal driving that it
>>does not need to run the ICE _extra_ [and extra is the important word
>>here]
>>to recharge the batteries. Extra. In my Prius it never discharges the
>>traction battery enough to turn on the ICE solely because the battery is
>>low
>>during normal driving. It only will do that if I am sitting still and
>>running electric stuff because the car is not stuffing the battery while
>>not
>>moving, so only then does it use the ICE solely for recharging.
>>
>>Therefore, running the AC _under normal conditions_ does _not_ make the
>>gas
>>engine run more versus not running the AC.
>>
>>When I say that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" I mean that it
>>could
>>use more reclaimed energy than it chooses to use, and has spare to run the
>>AC without engaging the ICE just for that. It could use more of the
>>energy
>>in the batteries and get slightly higher MPG, but Toyota chose to manage
>>it
>>the way it does for battery longevity reasons. Also, it does it does
>>sometimes waste energy on purpose when the battery is 'full' by spinning
>>the
>>engine with no gas feed. This is reclaimed energy that is not used.
>>Tomes
>
> Ahhh.. the benefits of a liberal education!!
>
> E=MC2 (hard to use super and subscripts with text-only)
>
> One of the things this formula proves is that energy can't be created
> or destroyed, only changed. Your explanation implies that Toyota
> violates the laws of physics.
>
> Where do you think the energy to run the AC comes from? Where do you
> think the energy you reclaim comes from? Where do you think the
> energy to move the car comes from? ALL of it comes from gasoline! If
> you are driving down the highway and you turn on your radio, your car
> uses a little bit MORE gasoline to generate the electricity needed to
> run the radio. The same thing happens when you turn on the AC.
>
> All of the hybrid's technology is used for one thing and one thing
> only, increased performance off the line. Regenerative braking can
> recapture, AT MOST, about 5% of the total energy used and it can't
> recapture anything if you don't brake. This recaptured energy is more
> than used up by the increased energy needed to haul around the
> electrics the hybrid requires. Take out the battery,
> generator/electric motor, added transmission complexity, controls and
> wiring and the car would get even better mileage. But you wouldn't
> buy it because it couldn't get out of it's own way.
>
> If you want to fool yourself into thinking that a hybrid car is "Green
> Technology" then go for it. But you really should learn some basic
> physics (something like what was taught in high school around the time
> of WWII).
>
> Jack j

Ah, there is no reasoning with LIEbrawls. To them, it "feels" good, buying
an
overpriced little tin box. To them, the laws of physics mean dick all. Also,
the laws of economics, in most cases. Witness
the crazed DEMONrats/Liebrawls spewing out pork "stimuli".

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Retired VIP > wrote:
>
>> Ahhh.. the benefits of a liberal education!!
>>
>> E=MC2 (hard to use super and subscripts with text-only)
>>
>> One of the things this formula proves is that energy can't be created
>> or destroyed, only changed. Your explanation implies that Toyota
>> violates the laws of physics.
>>
>> Where do you think the energy to run the AC comes from? Where do you
>> think the energy you reclaim comes from? Where do you think the
>> energy to move the car comes from? ALL of it comes from gasoline! If
>> you are driving down the highway and you turn on your radio, your car
>> uses a little bit MORE gasoline to generate the electricity needed to
>> run the radio. The same thing happens when you turn on the AC.
>
> Agreed to all of them, but: the HSD with its big battery buffer uses
> the gasoline energy *more* efficiently than a car that's running the
> engine just sitting there, expending 99.9% of its energy as heat just to
> keep the radio on.

Admit it. You paid thousands too much for a tin can.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:28:35 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Retired VIP > wrote:
>
>> Take out the battery,
>> generator/electric motor, added transmission complexity, controls and
>> wiring and the car would get even better mileage.
>
>Ummmm....let me think about this.....
>
>The transmission is actually SIMPLER than a conventional automatic
>transmission--by far. Have you ever looked into it, or are you (as
>usual) making random, wild-ass assumptions?
>
>It would be interesting to delve into it and discover the FACTS about
>how much the HSD transmission weighs vs. how much a conventional
>hydraulic auto trans weighs. Were I to put a dollar on it, I'd bet that
>dollar on the HSD transmission weighing a noticeable amount less.

Elmo, go back and READ what I WROTE! I'm not talking about going back
to a 2 speed powerglide. I'm not even talking about using a different
transmission, just simplify the existing one which will make it
lighter. And yes I have looked into the transmission. My dad had a
Sears & Roebuck lawn tractor back in the 60's that had a transmission
very similar to what Toyota uses in their hybrids.

Jack j

Tomes wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
>> ray :
>>
>>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
>>> > recharging the batteries. It reclaims plenty enough when driving
>>> along
>>> > to make the electric AC use not affect MPG at all. In other words, it
>>> > reclaims more than it uses anyway.
>>> > Tomes
>>> WHa?!!?!?!
>>
>> That's what I said.
>>
>> Tomes saying that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" means Tomes
>> thinks that the Prius is a perpetual motion machine (or worse--is an
>> actual generator of power).
>>
>> Tomes doesn't understand the concepts of thermodynamics. Unfortunately,
>> Toyota marketing is happy to have people like Tomes on their side.
>
> No, no, no....
> Hang on and think this through with me for a bit. I tend to think at
> things from different angles [no bong required <grin>.
>
> First, we agree that all the energy comes from gas, no problem. All the
> Prius is doing is managing quite well the energy sourced from that gas.
> It uses the gas to move the car. Then, and only then, it reclaims some
> of the wasted energy and stuffs it into the traction batteries. Now,
> the issue is what it does with that reclaimed energy. One of the things
> it uses it for is to run the AC.
>
> When one drives the Prius, one uses the engine plenty enough [along with
> regenerative braking] to stuff charge into the battery. It stuffs
> plenty of electrons in there because it is designed pretty well to do
> that. It's going in there anyway, regardless of how it then
> subsequently uses those negatively charged critters up again. Sometimes
> it uses it for propulsion, sometimes for the radio and lights, sometimes
> for the AC. My position here is that it stuffs enough into the
> batteries during normal driving that it does not need to run the ICE
> _extra_ [and extra is the important word here] to recharge the
> batteries. Extra. In my Prius it never discharges the traction battery
> enough to turn on the ICE solely because the battery is low during
> normal driving. It only will do that if I am sitting still and running
> electric stuff because the car is not stuffing the battery while not
> moving, so only then does it use the ICE solely for recharging.
>
> Therefore, running the AC _under normal conditions_ does _not_ make the
> gas engine run more versus not running the AC.
>

No No NO. You're still wrong. Using the AC means that the energy has
to come from somewhere and that's from either the batteries, the regen
braking, or the ICE. If you're using the batteries to power the AC, the
gas motor has to charge them to replenish them. If you're using regen
braking to run the AC, then the batteries aren't being charged by the
regen braking. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not saying the Prius isn't very efficient, but you're sadly mistaken
if you believe that you can use the AC and not have it affect the
mileage. the energy required to operate the AC doesn't come from the AC
fairy, it comes from GASOLINE.



> When I say that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" I mean that it
> could use more reclaimed energy than it chooses to use, and has spare to
> run the AC without engaging the ICE just for that. It could use more of
> the energy in the batteries and get slightly higher MPG, but Toyota
> chose to manage it the way it does for battery longevity reasons. Also,
> it does it does sometimes waste energy on purpose when the battery is
> 'full' by spinning the engine with no gas feed. This is reclaimed
> energy that is not used.
> Tomes

"ray" ...
> Tomes wrote:
>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
>>> ray :
>>>
>>>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
>>>> > recharging the batteries. It reclaims plenty enough when driving
>>>> along
>>>> > to make the electric AC use not affect MPG at all. In other words,
>>>> > it
>>>> > reclaims more than it uses anyway.
>>>> > Tomes
>>>> WHa?!!?!?!
>>>
>>> That's what I said.
>>>
>>> Tomes saying that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" means Tomes
>>> thinks that the Prius is a perpetual motion machine (or worse--is an
>>> actual generator of power).
>>>
>>> Tomes doesn't understand the concepts of thermodynamics. Unfortunately,
>>> Toyota marketing is happy to have people like Tomes on their side.
>>
>> No, no, no....
>> Hang on and think this through with me for a bit. I tend to think at
>> things from different angles [no bong required <grin>.
>>
>> First, we agree that all the energy comes from gas, no problem. All the
>> Prius is doing is managing quite well the energy sourced from that gas.
>> It uses the gas to move the car. Then, and only then, it reclaims some
>> of the wasted energy and stuffs it into the traction batteries. Now, the
>> issue is what it does with that reclaimed energy. One of the things it
>> uses it for is to run the AC.
>>
>> When one drives the Prius, one uses the engine plenty enough [along with
>> regenerative braking] to stuff charge into the battery. It stuffs plenty
>> of electrons in there because it is designed pretty well to do that.
>> It's going in there anyway, regardless of how it then subsequently uses
>> those negatively charged critters up again. Sometimes it uses it for
>> propulsion, sometimes for the radio and lights, sometimes for the AC. My
>> position here is that it stuffs enough into the batteries during normal
>> driving that it does not need to run the ICE _extra_ [and extra is the
>> important word here] to recharge the batteries. Extra. In my Prius it
>> never discharges the traction battery enough to turn on the ICE solely
>> because the battery is low during normal driving. It only will do that
>> if I am sitting still and running electric stuff because the car is not
>> stuffing the battery while not moving, so only then does it use the ICE
>> solely for recharging.
>>
>> Therefore, running the AC _under normal conditions_ does _not_ make the
>> gas engine run more versus not running the AC.
>>
>
> No No NO. You're still wrong. Using the AC means that the energy has to
> come from somewhere and that's from either the batteries, the regen
> braking, or the ICE. If you're using the batteries to power the AC, the
> gas motor has to charge them to replenish them. If you're using regen
> braking to run the AC, then the batteries aren't being charged by the
> regen braking. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
>
> I'm not saying the Prius isn't very efficient, but you're sadly mistaken
> if you believe that you can use the AC and not have it affect the mileage.
> the energy required to operate the AC doesn't come from the AC fairy, it
> comes from GASOLINE.
>
OK Ray, we are almost there and I don't disagree with you that it comes from
somewhere and that somewhere is originally from gas. What I am saying is
that the gas engine run enough anyway that it powers the cars needs from the
reserves that it puts into the batteries. It might run with the battery
level at perhaps one bar lower with the AC on, but as long as the battery
level is within the maintenance range [meaning that the battery itself calls
for the gas engine to turn on only when the battery level falls below a
certain level and that level is not usually reached due to it dumping in
enough electrons from normal running of the ICE and braking] it does not
call for the engine to turn on only for the battery.

Maybe think if it this way. You have a lake that you draw water from that
is fed by a stream and has a stream leaving it. It gets fed enough to serve
its exit needs. Now you draw a little bit to feed a house once in a while.
The water level still stays reasonably high enough to still serve the needs
without having extra water added because the replenishment is enough to
cover it anyway.
Tomes

Ray,
You might want to look at this link. Much good reading here that explains a
lot.
http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...ide_iconic.pdf
All the best,
Tomes

On Feb 8, 11:39*pm, ray > wrote:
> Tomes wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
> >> ray :
>
> >>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
> >>> > recharging the batteries. *It reclaims plenty enough when driving
> >>> along
> >>> > to make the electric AC use not affect MPG at all. *In other words, it
> >>> > reclaims more than it uses anyway.
> >>> > Tomes
> >>> WHa?!!?!?!
>
> >> That's what I said.
>
> >> Tomes saying that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" means Tomes
> >> thinks that the Prius is a perpetual motion machine (or worse--is an
> >> actual generator of power).
>
> >> Tomes doesn't understand the concepts of thermodynamics. *Unfortunately,
> >> Toyota marketing is happy to have people like Tomes on their side.
>
> > No, no, no....
> > Hang on and think this through with me for a bit. *I tend to think at
> > things from different angles [no bong required <grin>.
>
> > First, we agree that all the energy comes from gas, no problem. *All the
> > Prius is doing is managing quite well the energy sourced from that gas. *
> > It uses the gas to move the car. *Then, and only then, it reclaims some
> > of the wasted energy and stuffs it into the traction batteries. *Now,
> > the issue is what it does with that reclaimed energy. *One of the things
> > it uses it for is to run the AC.
>
> > When one drives the Prius, one uses the engine plenty enough [along with
> > regenerative braking] to stuff charge into the battery. *It stuffs
> > plenty of electrons in there because it is designed pretty well to do
> > that. *It's going in there anyway, regardless of how it then
> > subsequently uses those negatively charged critters up again. *Sometimes
> > it uses it for propulsion, sometimes for the radio and lights, sometimes
> > for the AC. *My position here is that it stuffs enough into the
> > batteries during normal driving that it does not need to run the ICE
> > _extra_ [and extra is the important word here] to recharge the
> > batteries. *Extra. *In my Prius it never discharges the traction battery
> > enough to turn on the ICE solely because the battery is low during
> > normal driving. *It only will do that if I am sitting still and running
> > electric stuff because the car is not stuffing the battery while not
> > moving, so only then does it use the ICE solely for recharging.
>
> > Therefore, running the AC _under normal conditions_ does _not_ make the
> > gas engine run more versus not running the AC.
>
> No No NO. *You're still wrong. *Using the AC means that the energy has
> to come from somewhere and that's from either the batteries, the regen
> braking, or the ICE. *If you're using the batteries to power the AC, the
> gas motor has to charge them to replenish them. *If you're using regen
> braking to run the AC, then the batteries aren't being charged by the
> regen braking. *You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
>
> I'm not saying the Prius isn't very efficient, but you're sadly mistaken
> if you believe that you can use the AC and not have it affect the
> mileage. *the energy required to operate the AC doesn't come from the AC
> fairy, it comes from GASOLINE.

1) If the energy is coming from braking regen and the energy would not
have been used to drive the car (i.e., it would have been wasted),
then the A/C would be free. However, I doubt that this is the case. If
one's driving on the highway, then there is little regen to charge the
batteries and run the A/C. And if it is in the city, the electricity
would have been used to drive the car if it weren't driving the A/C
compressor. So rarely is the electricity energy that is recaptured and
would have otherwise been wasted.

2) I think the Prius uses an electric A/C compressor. The compressor
is pretty efficient, so that while the compressor does use
electricity, it won't a huge amount of energy, so it will decrease the
mileage by 1 or 2 mpg, which is hard to measure unless done carefully.



jeff

> > When I say that "it reclaims more than it uses anyway" I mean that it
> > could use more reclaimed energy than it chooses to use, and has spare to
> > run the AC without engaging the ICE just for that. *It could use more of
> > the energy in the batteries and get slightly higher MPG, but Toyota
> > chose to manage it the way it does for battery longevity reasons. *Also,
> > it does it does sometimes waste energy on purpose when the battery is
> > 'full' by spinning the engine with no gas feed. *This is reclaimed
> > energy that is not used.
> > Tomes

On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:15:33 -0500, "Tomes" > wrote:

>"ray" ...
>> Tomes wrote:
>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...
>>>> ray :
>>>>
>>>>> > Only if you are sitting in traffic and not driving along normally
>>>>> > recharging the batteries. It reclaims plenty enough when driving
>>>>> along
>
>Maybe think if it this way. You have a lake that you draw water from that
>is fed by a stream and has a stream leaving it. It gets fed enough to serve
>its exit needs. Now you draw a little bit to feed a house once in a while.
>The water level still stays reasonably high enough to still serve the needs
>without having extra water added because the replenishment is enough to
>cover it anyway.
>Tomes

I'll try one more time Tomes and then I'm done. Ray or someone else
can take over.

If you take energy out of the battery to run the AC it will discharge
the battery. The battery is recharged by running the gasoline engine.
The gasoline engine supplies ALL of the power used by the car, even
the power that is reclaimed by regenerative braking. The more current
you pull out of the battery, the more often you need to recharge it
and the more often the engine will run (regenerative braking can't
supply anywhere near all of the power needs of the car).

Think of it this way. If a light bulb burns out in a ceiling light in
your home, do you change it by step into a bucket and pull up on the
bale until you're high enough off the floor to reach the bulb? Of
course not and the same holds true for your car, you will never reach
the top of a hill by engaging regenerative braking to supply the power
needed to climb the hill. If the battery can't supply enough power,
the gas engine starts and supplies the needed power to both climb the
hill and recharge the battery. Regenerative braking going down the
other side of the hill merely reclaims a small percentage of the
energy used to climb the hill.

All cars have an energy budget that it can never exceed. That budget
is the energy contained in a tank of gas. It takes more power to go
fast and going fast uses up your energy budget faster than going
slower. Turn on the rear window defogger and the alternator supplies
more current to the electrical system to power the defogger. It
supplies this current by drawing more power from the engine which
makes the engine work harder and use more gasoline. Same for the AC,
turn it on and the compressor draws power from the engine to compress
the freon (or whatever your system uses) making the engine use more
gasoline to supply the power. Anything which makes the engine work
harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
in the equation or not.

Jack j

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:44:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Retired VIP > wrote:
>
>> Anything which makes the engine work
>> harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
>> difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
>> in the equation or not.
>
>Well, that part I will heartily disagree with.
>
>The battery buffer and electric AC are a much more efficient way to use
>that energy than, say, how a standard car does it.

I'm surprised at you Elmo. Why do you think that throwing away energy
on energy conversion inefficiency is a more efficient way to use
energy? Learn about Ohm's Law and what it teaches about power loss.
Learn about battery chemistry and how electrical energy is converted
into chemical energy and then back into electrical energy.

Jack j