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Article: Plug-in hybrid
Tweaked hybrid gets 80 miles per gallon
By Tim Molloy Associated Press CORTE MADERA, Calif. -- Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage. It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80 miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-size batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel. Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car. Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb -- all for about a quarter. He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg. They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign-policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling. And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too. So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them. "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy." The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg. "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference." Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power. Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price. But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids -- and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones. Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message. Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA Director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence. Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism. "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said. DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available. On the Net: CalCars Initiative: calcars.org -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >, > jim beam > wrote: > > >>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>> >> >>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>charging losses. > > > And additional weight with less carrying capacity. > > That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your > transportation costs from one energy bill to another? > you got it! |
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In article >, "Elmo P.
Shagnasty" > wrote: > In article >, > jim beam > wrote: > > > > Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of > > > your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? > > > > > yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is > > substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric > > utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery > > pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional > > charging losses. > > And additional weight with less carrying capacity. > > That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your > transportation costs from one energy bill to another? Hello, That's true-the owner of a plug in hybrid would be moving the transportation costs from one energy bill to another. However, since gas prices are going higher and higher, the owner of such a vehicle may save money in the long run. Some power companies charge less money to customers that use electric power during the middle of the night. I recall that I received a notice from the power company when they were having rolling black outs to wash clothing in the middle of the night since that was when there was plenty of elec. power available during the midnight hours. Perhaps an engineer could better explain why this is true--I just know that it is true but not all of the reasons. Jason -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:49:14 -0700, jim beam >
wrote: >Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote: >> In article >, >> jim beam > wrote: >> >> >>>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>>> >>> >>>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>>charging losses. >> >> >> And additional weight with less carrying capacity. >> >> That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your >> transportation costs from one energy bill to another? >> >you got it! Did you guys read the whole article? I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the article, but they're claiming that the greenhouse gases and pollutants produced during the generation of the electricity used are much less than those produced by burning the oil necessary to propel the auto the same distance. I, myself, don't even own a hybrid, but I'd be reluctant to insult the intelligence of those proposing this innovation by insinuating that they forgot that the electricity was produced by burning fossil fuel. Calculating the break-even point of this proposition is going to be a little more complicated than that. Ron |
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Milleron wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:49:14 -0700, jim beam > > wrote: > > >>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote: >> >>>In article >, >>> jim beam > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>>>> >>>> >>>>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>>>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>>>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>>>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>>>charging losses. >>> >>> >>>And additional weight with less carrying capacity. >>> >>>That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your >>>transportation costs from one energy bill to another? >>> >> >>you got it! > > > Did you guys read the whole article? I'm not vouching for the > accuracy of the article, but they're claiming that the greenhouse > gases and pollutants produced during the generation of the electricity > used are much less than those produced by burning the oil necessary to > propel the auto the same distance. I, myself, don't even own a > hybrid, but I'd be reluctant to insult the intelligence of those > proposing this innovation by insinuating that they forgot that the > electricity was produced by burning fossil fuel. Calculating the > break-even point of this proposition is going to be a little more > complicated than that. > Ron did you read this tread? the claim that simply adding batteries creates higher mpg is utterly bogus. that's why i say, and repeat for your benefit, that if the author wants to claim high mpg, he should go the whole way and drive a fully electric vehicle. you're right that generation of electricity at the average power plant is both cheaper & more efficient than within a car engine, but otoh, the majority of grid power is generated by burning coal which is mostly carbon. as least gasoline is a hydrocarbon, so proportionally, less of the output is co2. and burning gasoline does not emit the gross tonnage of mercury, cadmium, etc. of coal burning power stations. |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:28:50 -0700, jim beam >
wrote: >Milleron wrote: >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:49:14 -0700, jim beam > >> wrote: >> >> >>>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote: >>> >>>>In article >, >>>> jim beam > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>>>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>>>>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>>>>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>>>>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>>>>charging losses. >>>> >>>> >>>>And additional weight with less carrying capacity. >>>> >>>>That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your >>>>transportation costs from one energy bill to another? >>>> >>> >>>you got it! >> >> >> Did you guys read the whole article? I'm not vouching for the >> accuracy of the article, but they're claiming that the greenhouse >> gases and pollutants produced during the generation of the electricity >> used are much less than those produced by burning the oil necessary to >> propel the auto the same distance. I, myself, don't even own a >> hybrid, but I'd be reluctant to insult the intelligence of those >> proposing this innovation by insinuating that they forgot that the >> electricity was produced by burning fossil fuel. Calculating the >> break-even point of this proposition is going to be a little more >> complicated than that. >> Ron > >did you read this tread? Sure I read the thread. Nowhere in is mentioned the points you make in your last paragraph. >the claim that simply adding batteries creates >higher mpg is utterly bogus. In fact, it's utterly true. That "g" in "mpg" stands for gallon. These vehicles can go more miles on a gallon of GASOLINE, hence HIGHER MPG. I don't know that they're claiming that they go farther on an original kilocalorie of fossil fuel (combined coal, natural gas, or oil + the gasoline from the pump), but they definitely go farther on a gallon of gasoline. Some of the proponents of the plan see that as a way of lessening dependence on foreign oil. Whether the process is ultimately more efficient or not, these autos use less GASOLINE for driving on short trips between recharges. I think that's all they're saying right now. It's for that strategic reason, and not for practical reasons, that the former cabinet secretaries are behind the initiative. >that's why i say, and repeat for your >benefit, that if the author wants to claim high mpg, he should go the >whole way and drive a fully electric vehicle. Why??? >you're right that generation of electricity at the average power plant >is both cheaper & more efficient than within a car engine, but otoh, the >majority of grid power is generated by burning coal which is mostly >carbon. as least gasoline is a hydrocarbon, so proportionally, less of >the output is co2. and burning gasoline does not emit the gross tonnage >of mercury, cadmium, etc. of coal burning power stations. Some of the proponents of this plan -- the ones with strategic goals for it -- may be hoping, ultimately, for sources of electricity that are cleaner than coal -- nuclear, wind . . . cold fusion for all I know. What they're producing at this point are, admittedly, prototypes. I don't see any reason for discouraging or denigrating them. Ron |
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Milleron wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:28:50 -0700, jim beam > > wrote: > > >>Milleron wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:49:14 -0700, jim beam > >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article >, >>>>>jim beam > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>>>>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>>>>>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>>>>>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>>>>>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>>>>>charging losses. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>And additional weight with less carrying capacity. >>>>> >>>>>That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your >>>>>transportation costs from one energy bill to another? >>>>> >>>> >>>>you got it! >>> >>> >>>Did you guys read the whole article? I'm not vouching for the >>>accuracy of the article, but they're claiming that the greenhouse >>>gases and pollutants produced during the generation of the electricity >>>used are much less than those produced by burning the oil necessary to >>>propel the auto the same distance. I, myself, don't even own a >>>hybrid, but I'd be reluctant to insult the intelligence of those >>>proposing this innovation by insinuating that they forgot that the >>>electricity was produced by burning fossil fuel. Calculating the >>>break-even point of this proposition is going to be a little more >>>complicated than that. >>>Ron >> >>did you read this tread? > > Sure I read the thread. Nowhere in is mentioned the points you make > in your last paragraph. > > >>the claim that simply adding batteries creates >>higher mpg is utterly bogus. > > In fact, it's utterly true. That "g" in "mpg" stands for gallon. > These vehicles can go more miles on a gallon of GASOLINE, hence HIGHER > MPG. I don't know that they're claiming that they go farther on an > original kilocalorie of fossil fuel (combined coal, natural gas, or > oil + the gasoline from the pump), but they definitely go farther on a > gallon of gasoline. Some of the proponents of the plan see that as a > way of lessening dependence on foreign oil. Whether the process is > ultimately more efficient or not, these autos use less GASOLINE for > driving on short trips between recharges. I think that's all they're > saying right now. It's for that strategic reason, and not for > practical reasons, that the former cabinet secretaries are behind the > initiative. > > >>that's why i say, and repeat for your >>benefit, that if the author wants to claim high mpg, he should go the >>whole way and drive a fully electric vehicle. > > Why??? > > >>you're right that generation of electricity at the average power plant >>is both cheaper & more efficient than within a car engine, but otoh, the >>majority of grid power is generated by burning coal which is mostly >>carbon. as least gasoline is a hydrocarbon, so proportionally, less of >>the output is co2. and burning gasoline does not emit the gross tonnage >>of mercury, cadmium, etc. of coal burning power stations. > > > Some of the proponents of this plan -- the ones with strategic goals > for it -- may be hoping, ultimately, for sources of electricity that > are cleaner than coal -- nuclear, wind . . . cold fusion for all I > know. What they're producing at this point are, admittedly, > prototypes. I don't see any reason for discouraging or denigrating > them. > > Ron i discourage & denigrate b.s. hype like "modified to achieve 80mpg because of bigger batteries". is the hybrid technology sound? it has benefits. but so does driving a smaller car. or driving a diesel. fact is, hybrids are expensive and are likely to remain so. small gas or diesel cars are not. in fact, they're ridiculously cheap. all the hoopla about hybrids merely ensures that economy comes at substantial extra cost thereby discouraging large scale adoption. i mean, adoption would in turn, [gasp] actually impact national gas consumption! that ain't going to happen. "hybrid" is weasel worded lip service to economy while cleverly ensuring large scale non-adoption. imagine what would happen if small cheap economical cars were the object of so many fawning column-inches. before we knew it, we'd be reducing... i mean importing less... i mean emitting less greenhou... oh, never mind. |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:54:22 -0700, jim beam >
wrote: >Milleron wrote: >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:28:50 -0700, jim beam > >> wrote: >> >> >>>Milleron wrote: >>> >>>>On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:49:14 -0700, jim beam > >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In article >, >>>>>>jim beam > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is this like buying a book-sized battery pack to stick to the back of >>>>>>>>your iPod so that you can go longer between charges? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>yes. and claiming higher mpg when in fact all you're doing is >>>>>>>substituting motive energy from gas to motive energy from the electric >>>>>>>utility company. once you're outside the range of the extra battery >>>>>>>pack, mpg goes back to where it was before, or worse due to additional >>>>>>>charging losses. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>And additional weight with less carrying capacity. >>>>>> >>>>>>That was really my point--what are you achieving except to move your >>>>>>transportation costs from one energy bill to another? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>you got it! >>>> >>>> >>>>Did you guys read the whole article? I'm not vouching for the >>>>accuracy of the article, but they're claiming that the greenhouse >>>>gases and pollutants produced during the generation of the electricity >>>>used are much less than those produced by burning the oil necessary to >>>>propel the auto the same distance. I, myself, don't even own a >>>>hybrid, but I'd be reluctant to insult the intelligence of those >>>>proposing this innovation by insinuating that they forgot that the >>>>electricity was produced by burning fossil fuel. Calculating the >>>>break-even point of this proposition is going to be a little more >>>>complicated than that. >>>>Ron >>> >>>did you read this tread? >> >> Sure I read the thread. Nowhere in is mentioned the points you make >> in your last paragraph. >> >> >>>the claim that simply adding batteries creates >>>higher mpg is utterly bogus. >> >> In fact, it's utterly true. That "g" in "mpg" stands for gallon. >> These vehicles can go more miles on a gallon of GASOLINE, hence HIGHER >> MPG. I don't know that they're claiming that they go farther on an >> original kilocalorie of fossil fuel (combined coal, natural gas, or >> oil + the gasoline from the pump), but they definitely go farther on a >> gallon of gasoline. Some of the proponents of the plan see that as a >> way of lessening dependence on foreign oil. Whether the process is >> ultimately more efficient or not, these autos use less GASOLINE for >> driving on short trips between recharges. I think that's all they're >> saying right now. It's for that strategic reason, and not for >> practical reasons, that the former cabinet secretaries are behind the >> initiative. >> >> >>>that's why i say, and repeat for your >>>benefit, that if the author wants to claim high mpg, he should go the >>>whole way and drive a fully electric vehicle. >> >> Why??? >> >> >>>you're right that generation of electricity at the average power plant >>>is both cheaper & more efficient than within a car engine, but otoh, the >>>majority of grid power is generated by burning coal which is mostly >>>carbon. as least gasoline is a hydrocarbon, so proportionally, less of >>>the output is co2. and burning gasoline does not emit the gross tonnage >>>of mercury, cadmium, etc. of coal burning power stations. >> >> >> Some of the proponents of this plan -- the ones with strategic goals >> for it -- may be hoping, ultimately, for sources of electricity that >> are cleaner than coal -- nuclear, wind . . . cold fusion for all I >> know. What they're producing at this point are, admittedly, >> prototypes. I don't see any reason for discouraging or denigrating >> them. >> >> Ron > >i discourage & denigrate b.s. hype like "modified to achieve 80mpg >because of bigger batteries". > >is the hybrid technology sound? it has benefits. but so does driving a >smaller car. or driving a diesel. > >fact is, hybrids are expensive and are likely to remain so. small gas >or diesel cars are not. in fact, they're ridiculously cheap. > >all the hoopla about hybrids merely ensures that economy comes at >substantial extra cost thereby discouraging large scale adoption. i >mean, adoption would in turn, [gasp] actually impact national gas >consumption! that ain't going to happen. "hybrid" is weasel worded lip >service to economy while cleverly ensuring large scale non-adoption. >imagine what would happen if small cheap economical cars were the object >of so many fawning column-inches. before we knew it, we'd be >reducing... i mean importing less... i mean emitting less greenhou... > oh, never mind. Good points, all. Extremely valid. If I could wave a magic wand and turn all SUVs and large pickups used for one-passenger commuting into Honda Civics, I'd do it, and we'd be a billion barrels of oil ahead of where we'd be with a handful of hybrids running around. But the Prius in the original post is already a small car. I hate to put words into the mouths of the folks behind this initiative, but I'm guessing they'd say something like "But we're trying to lay the groundwork for combining cleanly-generated electricity with very small diesel-powered vehicles." This guy, Gremban, knew with certainty that he'd never recoup his $3,000 investment in gasoline savings. Let's give this E.E. credit for some common sense. I think it's very clear that what he thinks he's doing with his experimental car is just that, an experiment. Who would want to stifle experimentation??? The Wright brothers first plane was a silly way to try to get from point A to point B. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Oh, never mind. Ron |
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