Pushing Euro At American Buyers

Interesting commentary:

--
The current Detroit enthusiasm for global engineering and design is
amazing considering how often it fails to score with American buyers.

My impression is that Americans just don't think much of European
design. You might say Mercedes and BMW are successful. They a But
their 530,000 combined sales for cars and trucks, out of a market of
almost 17 million, is a limited success.

Care to look at the failures? Start with Volkswagen and its Golf,
popular in Europe but a flop here.

Go to Ford. The Contour and Mystique were American versions of the
European Mondeo. They failed. There is the Ford Focus, a
European-designed small car that started moderately well in the U.S.
but is seriously slumping.

Go to GM. Remember the Cadillac Catera, an Opel with Cadillac badges,
imported here? A flop. How about the Saturn LS, a European platform
with a plastic skin, a flop and now gone like Cateras and
Contour/Mystique. The Saturn Ion was another of those Euro platforms
used here. The most successful of the Global/European platform cars
sold here is the Chevy Malibu, the fleet special, which even GM
executives say is a design bore.

But this doesn't stop executives from thinking the answer to their
problems, particularly at GM, is at the global approach. Whenever you
bring up the failures, they just brush them aside or say they weren't
done well enough. The idea that Americans really don't care for the
European approach is beyond their radar.

Here are just a few of my complaints with this mindset. There's no
global exchange here. What GM and Ford want to build are European cars
with Euro platforms and European engineering. They just want American
badges on them. The design freedom for the American versions is quite
limited because they can only work off the Euro platforms.

If this continues, it won't be long before Americans at GM and Ford
won't be able to design and engineer a car. They'll just do pickups.
Look at General Motors: GM forgot how to do a rear-drive car and had to
borrow from GM Australia. No American car platforms get transferred for
European production. It's a one-way street. Yet the American market,
and GM and Ford's share in it, are much larger than the European
vehicle market or the GM/Ford shares.

You even see some of this thinking with trucks. When GM wanted a small
pickup, the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon, they started with a truck
they build in Thailand. That's the global approach. It's supposed to
save money. Of course, they couldn't get a V-6 in that pickup, but who
needs a V-6? Toyota decided to do a thoroughly American new small
pickup truck, the Tacoma. They figured what appeals in Texas might be
more important that what sells in Thailand. Right now that Tacoma is
outselling the combined GM models 2 to 1.

Now I have said the models never go the other way. So far that has been
true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built models
could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never really wanted
them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about the European
potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but the GM
Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred to me that
the GM people in Europe want to design and build their own vehicles,
not sell U.S.-made cars.

Now they will have another chance to take an American car. The GM
Pontiac Solstice plant will build a version, called the Opel GT, for GM
in Europe. It will be interesting to see if the GM Germans actually try
to sell it, or if they bury them as they have those American-made
vehicles in the past.

Aura of success?

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Opel designs will sell here. The coming Saturn
Aura, which is an Opel design, looks good. It could be successful.

But I still say this is a huge market. There's no reason that we
shouldn't be able to design and build cars for our market profitably,
building what our people like, instead of taking a second-best
compromise - meaning, the best car we could make out of a car really
designed for the European tastes.

Ironically, the one company that seems to think there is something
positive in American design is Chrysler, which has German ownership.
The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum and Charger don't borrow styling
from Europe. The smaller models, the PT Cruiser and the new Dodge
Caliber, are distinctive, too.

What about Toyota and its global success? Remember that the
best-selling Camry sold in America is not the same car they sell in
Europe.

What sounds better? Having Detroit design and engineer cars for the
American buyer or adapting European designs for America? And how much
money can be saved if the vehicles have to be built here anyway? The
factory and the tooling are the major costs. No savings there.

Frankly, German GM, meaning Opel, has been flopping anyway and is just
now trying to turn around. What makes anyone at GM think they can build
a better car than we can?

I recall the then-chairman of Ford, standing with me as we looked at
the new Contour. He said. "If this doesn't work we'll never try it
again." It didn't work but they haven't stopped trying to shove Euro
designs down our throats.
--

Patrick

On 23 Mar 2006 17:45:24 -0800, wrote:

>Interesting commentary:
>
>--
>The current Detroit enthusiasm for global engineering and design is
>amazing considering how often it fails to score with American buyers.
>
>My impression is that Americans just don't think much of European
>design. You might say Mercedes and BMW are successful. They a But
>their 530,000 combined sales for cars and trucks, out of a market of
>almost 17 million, is a limited success.
>
>Care to look at the failures? Start with Volkswagen and its Golf,
>popular in Europe but a flop here.
>
>Go to Ford. The Contour and Mystique were American versions of the
>European Mondeo. They failed. There is the Ford Focus, a
>European-designed small car that started moderately well in the U.S.
>but is seriously slumping.
>
>Go to GM. Remember the Cadillac Catera, an Opel with Cadillac badges,
>imported here? A flop. How about the Saturn LS, a European platform
>with a plastic skin, a flop and now gone like Cateras and
>Contour/Mystique. The Saturn Ion was another of those Euro platforms
>used here. The most successful of the Global/European platform cars
>sold here is the Chevy Malibu, the fleet special, which even GM
>executives say is a design bore.
>
>But this doesn't stop executives from thinking the answer to their
>problems, particularly at GM, is at the global approach. Whenever you
>bring up the failures, they just brush them aside or say they weren't
>done well enough. The idea that Americans really don't care for the
>European approach is beyond their radar.
>
>Here are just a few of my complaints with this mindset. There's no
>global exchange here. What GM and Ford want to build are European cars
>with Euro platforms and European engineering. They just want American
>badges on them. The design freedom for the American versions is quite
>limited because they can only work off the Euro platforms.
>
>If this continues, it won't be long before Americans at GM and Ford
>won't be able to design and engineer a car. They'll just do pickups.
>Look at General Motors: GM forgot how to do a rear-drive car and had to
>borrow from GM Australia. No American car platforms get transferred for
>European production. It's a one-way street. Yet the American market,
>and GM and Ford's share in it, are much larger than the European
>vehicle market or the GM/Ford shares.
>
>You even see some of this thinking with trucks. When GM wanted a small
>pickup, the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon, they started with a truck
>they build in Thailand. That's the global approach. It's supposed to
>save money. Of course, they couldn't get a V-6 in that pickup, but who
>needs a V-6? Toyota decided to do a thoroughly American new small
>pickup truck, the Tacoma. They figured what appeals in Texas might be
>more important that what sells in Thailand. Right now that Tacoma is
>outselling the combined GM models 2 to 1.
>
>Now I have said the models never go the other way. So far that has been
>true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built models
>could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never really wanted
>them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about the European
>potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but the GM
>Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred to me that
>the GM people in Europe want to design and build their own vehicles,
>not sell U.S.-made cars.
>
>Now they will have another chance to take an American car. The GM
>Pontiac Solstice plant will build a version, called the Opel GT, for GM
>in Europe. It will be interesting to see if the GM Germans actually try
>to sell it, or if they bury them as they have those American-made
>vehicles in the past.
>
>Aura of success?
>
>Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Opel designs will sell here. The coming Saturn
>Aura, which is an Opel design, looks good. It could be successful.
>
>But I still say this is a huge market. There's no reason that we
>shouldn't be able to design and build cars for our market profitably,
>building what our people like, instead of taking a second-best
>compromise - meaning, the best car we could make out of a car really
>designed for the European tastes.
>
>Ironically, the one company that seems to think there is something
>positive in American design is Chrysler, which has German ownership.
>The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum and Charger don't borrow styling
>from Europe. The smaller models, the PT Cruiser and the new Dodge
>Caliber, are distinctive, too.
>
>What about Toyota and its global success? Remember that the
>best-selling Camry sold in America is not the same car they sell in
>Europe.
>
>What sounds better? Having Detroit design and engineer cars for the
>American buyer or adapting European designs for America? And how much
>money can be saved if the vehicles have to be built here anyway? The
>factory and the tooling are the major costs. No savings there.
>
>Frankly, German GM, meaning Opel, has been flopping anyway and is just
>now trying to turn around. What makes anyone at GM think they can build
>a better car than we can?
>
>I recall the then-chairman of Ford, standing with me as we looked at
>the new Contour. He said. "If this doesn't work we'll never try it
>again." It didn't work but they haven't stopped trying to shove Euro
>designs down our throats.
>
The mistakes don't just stop, or start with automobiles. It is this
way with many things based on both the cultural tastes & needs of each
countries consumers. We here in America keep hearing about how great
some European Social programs are and that we should adopt them here,
well Americans like their freedom of choice. Same things are
happening in the area of gun control as well. There is an agenda of
applying European gun controls here in the US by the UN and some rich
European industrialists. However, that really isn't going to fly with
our public either. They might get the support of some of the US
Nancy-Boys, but that is about it.
--

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

ZombyWoof
(take the dogs when replying via e-mail)

wrote:
> Interesting commentary:
>
> --
> The current Detroit enthusiasm for global engineering and design is
> amazing considering how often it fails to score with American buyers.

<snip good post>

Personally.. I don't want to look like everyone else. I don't dress like
them.. I don't act like them and I sure in the hell don't want to drive
a car where someone says *um, what is that? Is it a XX or a XX or maybe
a XX, because they all look the same*

I want something with a touch of a *wow* factor. Something that *I*
like, not something that someone in Europe might like.

It doesn't need to be high end (bugatti, ferrari, porche) but it damn
sure better have something to it or I don't want it.

My current is a '91 5.0. I had *thought* about selling it.. but then I
look at the car.. and I like how it looks and cant stand the thought of
giving it up.

Few cars *catch* my eye anymore because most of them look like all the
rest.

The new Stang is the only regular car (as opposed to some 30's-50's
classic or a high end (like bugatti) that has gotten my attention and I
cant even bring myself to part with the '91 to upgrade.

A friend has a BMW 3 series and yeah.. it is a sweet car to drive.. (He
lets me every time we get together and go anywhere, because he hates to
drive) but I wouldn't trade it for the '91 in an even swap.

Most American's still have a sense of independence.. we aren't like
everyone else.. we don't look, act, talk or feel like the rest of the
world.. maybe one car the car makers will realize this and try to come
up with a hybrid.. something with the look of independence but with the
engineering of european.. quick, stylish and with a bit of *wow* all
tossed in.

I *might* go for it, if it were affordable.

at 23 Mar 2006, ] wrote in
oups.com:

> I have said the models never go the other way. So far that has been
> true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built
> models could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never
> really wanted them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about
> the European potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but
> the GM Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred
> to me that the GM people in Europe want to design and build their
> own vehicles, not sell U.S.-made cars.

Part of the reason for thia is engine size/has consumption of most US
designed/made vehicles. We are bitching at $2.80 a gallon for gas but
in Europe you are looking at about $5.00 and more a gallon. Ergo, what
they want is small cars with 4 cylinder engines that have good gas
mileage. If I was in Europe, I would not have bought the 2005 v7
Mustang Convertible I just did. Considering the 30% tax on vehicles in
Holland and the $5 a gallon gas I could not afford to drive it. It's a
moot point as it seems Ford is not marketing/selling the Mustang in
Europe anyway.


--
_ 1995 Mustang V6 Coupe (Bright Blue)
|_| Member Modern Mustangs of North America
|(MMNA) http://mustang.fdns.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 17:43:55 GMT, Paul > puked:

>f I was in Europe, I would not have bought the 2005 v7
>Mustang Convertible I just did.

You should have paid a little extra for the v8...
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

Greetings,

From across the big pond. All you in the US should count yourselves lucky. I
live in England and have to live with this euro ****.

But no longer, my 99GT has just arrived I have a V8 again at last
"sigh!!"

Take care guys and keep turnning out great Pony cars.

JohnP.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Interesting commentary:
>
> --
> The current Detroit enthusiasm for global engineering and design is
> amazing considering how often it fails to score with American buyers.
>
> My impression is that Americans just don't think much of European
> design. You might say Mercedes and BMW are successful. They a But
> their 530,000 combined sales for cars and trucks, out of a market of
> almost 17 million, is a limited success.
>
> Care to look at the failures? Start with Volkswagen and its Golf,
> popular in Europe but a flop here.
>
> Go to Ford. The Contour and Mystique were American versions of the
> European Mondeo. They failed. There is the Ford Focus, a
> European-designed small car that started moderately well in the U.S.
> but is seriously slumping.
>
> Go to GM. Remember the Cadillac Catera, an Opel with Cadillac badges,
> imported here? A flop. How about the Saturn LS, a European platform
> with a plastic skin, a flop and now gone like Cateras and
> Contour/Mystique. The Saturn Ion was another of those Euro platforms
> used here. The most successful of the Global/European platform cars
> sold here is the Chevy Malibu, the fleet special, which even GM
> executives say is a design bore.
>
> But this doesn't stop executives from thinking the answer to their
> problems, particularly at GM, is at the global approach. Whenever you
> bring up the failures, they just brush them aside or say they weren't
> done well enough. The idea that Americans really don't care for the
> European approach is beyond their radar.
>
> Here are just a few of my complaints with this mindset. There's no
> global exchange here. What GM and Ford want to build are European cars
> with Euro platforms and European engineering. They just want American
> badges on them. The design freedom for the American versions is quite
> limited because they can only work off the Euro platforms.
>
> If this continues, it won't be long before Americans at GM and Ford
> won't be able to design and engineer a car. They'll just do pickups.
> Look at General Motors: GM forgot how to do a rear-drive car and had to
> borrow from GM Australia. No American car platforms get transferred for
> European production. It's a one-way street. Yet the American market,
> and GM and Ford's share in it, are much larger than the European
> vehicle market or the GM/Ford shares.
>
> You even see some of this thinking with trucks. When GM wanted a small
> pickup, the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon, they started with a truck
> they build in Thailand. That's the global approach. It's supposed to
> save money. Of course, they couldn't get a V-6 in that pickup, but who
> needs a V-6? Toyota decided to do a thoroughly American new small
> pickup truck, the Tacoma. They figured what appeals in Texas might be
> more important that what sells in Thailand. Right now that Tacoma is
> outselling the combined GM models 2 to 1.
>
> Now I have said the models never go the other way. So far that has been
> true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built models
> could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never really wanted
> them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about the European
> potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but the GM
> Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred to me that
> the GM people in Europe want to design and build their own vehicles,
> not sell U.S.-made cars.
>
> Now they will have another chance to take an American car. The GM
> Pontiac Solstice plant will build a version, called the Opel GT, for GM
> in Europe. It will be interesting to see if the GM Germans actually try
> to sell it, or if they bury them as they have those American-made
> vehicles in the past.
>
> Aura of success?
>
> Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Opel designs will sell here. The coming Saturn
> Aura, which is an Opel design, looks good. It could be successful.
>
> But I still say this is a huge market. There's no reason that we
> shouldn't be able to design and build cars for our market profitably,
> building what our people like, instead of taking a second-best
> compromise - meaning, the best car we could make out of a car really
> designed for the European tastes.
>
> Ironically, the one company that seems to think there is something
> positive in American design is Chrysler, which has German ownership.
> The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum and Charger don't borrow styling
> from Europe. The smaller models, the PT Cruiser and the new Dodge
> Caliber, are distinctive, too.
>
> What about Toyota and its global success? Remember that the
> best-selling Camry sold in America is not the same car they sell in
> Europe.
>
> What sounds better? Having Detroit design and engineer cars for the
> American buyer or adapting European designs for America? And how much
> money can be saved if the vehicles have to be built here anyway? The
> factory and the tooling are the major costs. No savings there.
>
> Frankly, German GM, meaning Opel, has been flopping anyway and is just
> now trying to turn around. What makes anyone at GM think they can build
> a better car than we can?
>
> I recall the then-chairman of Ford, standing with me as we looked at
> the new Contour. He said. "If this doesn't work we'll never try it
> again." It didn't work but they haven't stopped trying to shove Euro
> designs down our throats.
> --
>
> Patrick
>

at 28 Mar 2006, lab~rat >:-) ] wrote in
news
> You should have paid a little extra for the v8...

Equivalent V8 would have been more than a little extra. More in the
region of 10K. I'm very happy with my new baby...

--
_ 1995 Mustang V6 Coupe (Bright Blue)
|_| Member Modern Mustangs of North America (MMNA)
http://mustang.fdns.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:11:13 GMT, Paul > puked:

>at 28 Mar 2006, lab~rat >:-) ] wrote in
>news >
>> You should have paid a little extra for the v8...
>
>Equivalent V8 would have been more than a little extra. More in the
>region of 10K. I'm very happy with my new baby...


If I was in Europe, I would not have bought the 2005 v7

So how is that v7 runnin'?
--
lab~rat >:-)
Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

at 30 Mar 2006, lab~rat >:-) ] wrote in
:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:11:13 GMT, Paul > puked:
>
>>at 28 Mar 2006, lab~rat >:-) ] wrote in
>>news >>
>>> You should have paid a little extra for the v8...

> If I was in Europe, I would not have bought the 2005 v7

I'm not in Europe either. I'm in sunny Fla. ;-)

> So how is that v7 runnin'?

Thanks for the extra cylinder. You must be referring to the soda can in
the center console. *grinning* She's running great, beat a '98 GT the
other day with ease. No competition, just a friend;y fact finding
mission...


--
_ 1995 Mustang V6 Coupe (Bright Blue)
|_| Member Modern Mustangs of North America (MMNA)
http://mustang.fdns.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------