K & N air filters--Are They Worth it?

Armand wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:48:33 -0500, (Armand)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> says...
>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand >
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> says...
>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam
>>>>> <Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot
>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your
> Honda?
>>>>>>> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85
> CAD
>>>>>>> upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's
>>> the
>>>>>>> savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them
> from
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty?
>>>>>> they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void
> the
>>>>>> warranty.
>>>>> FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer,
> using a
>>>>> K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will neither
>>>>> damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees alot of
>>> these
>>>>> filters in his customers cars.
>>>> He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent.
>>> And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty. Can
> you
>>> prove that?
>> Use of aftermarket parts doesn't "void the warranty" but the
>> manufacturer can deny a claim if the damage was caused by the non-OEM
>> part. If push comes to shove, they have to prove that the part caused
>> the failure. If the cylinder walls are all scratched up and you have
>> a K&N filter, they would probably win.
>>
>> http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbploc...011/SPICER.htm
>>
>> I wouldn't worry much about the warranty being voided. Your engine
>> will probably last long enough to get out of the warranty period.
>>
>> The K&N filter lets in a lot more dirt than a top quality paper
>> filter. It may be less restrictive initially, but the difference
>> diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will
>> probably happen sooner than with the paper filter.
>
> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while
> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does
> happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a
> refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty.
>
putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not.
if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine the
cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in
wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:23:25 -0700, jim beam > wrote:


>Armand wrote:
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:48:33 -0500, (Armand)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> says...
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam
>>>>>> <Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot
>>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your
>> Honda?
>>>>>>>> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85
>> CAD
>>>>>>>> upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them
>> from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty?
>>>>>>> they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void
>> the
>>>>>>> warranty.
>>>>>> FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer,
>> using a
>>>>>> K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will neither
>>>>>> damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees alot of
>>>> these
>>>>>> filters in his customers cars.
>>>>> He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent.
>>>> And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty. Can
>> you
>>>> prove that?
>>> Use of aftermarket parts doesn't "void the warranty" but the
>>> manufacturer can deny a claim if the damage was caused by the non-OEM
>>> part. If push comes to shove, they have to prove that the part caused
>>> the failure. If the cylinder walls are all scratched up and you have
>>> a K&N filter, they would probably win.
>>>
>>> http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbploc...011/SPICER.htm
>>>
>>> I wouldn't worry much about the warranty being voided. Your engine
>>> will probably last long enough to get out of the warranty period.
>>>
>>> The K&N filter lets in a lot more dirt than a top quality paper
>>> filter. It may be less restrictive initially, but the difference
>>> diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will
>>> probably happen sooner than with the paper filter.
>>
>> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while
>> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does
>> happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a
>> refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty.
>>
>putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not.
>if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine the
>cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in
>wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration.

Can you name a single time that has ever happened?

AZ Nomad wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:23:25 -0700, jim beam > wrote:
>
>
>> Armand wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> says...
>>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:48:33 -0500, (Armand)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article >,
>>>>> says...
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam
>>>>>>> <Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot
>>>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your
>>> Honda?
>>>>>>>>> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85
>>> CAD
>>>>>>>>> upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them
>>> from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty?
>>>>>>>> they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they void
>>> the
>>>>>>>> warranty.
>>>>>>> FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer,
>>> using a
>>>>>>> K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will neither
>>>>>>> damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees alot of
>>>>> these
>>>>>>> filters in his customers cars.
>>>>>> He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent.
>>>>> And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty. Can
>>> you
>>>>> prove that?
>>>> Use of aftermarket parts doesn't "void the warranty" but the
>>>> manufacturer can deny a claim if the damage was caused by the non-OEM
>>>> part. If push comes to shove, they have to prove that the part caused
>>>> the failure. If the cylinder walls are all scratched up and you have
>>>> a K&N filter, they would probably win.
>>>>
>>>> http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbploc...011/SPICER.htm
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't worry much about the warranty being voided. Your engine
>>>> will probably last long enough to get out of the warranty period.
>>>>
>>>> The K&N filter lets in a lot more dirt than a top quality paper
>>>> filter. It may be less restrictive initially, but the difference
>>>> diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will
>>>> probably happen sooner than with the paper filter.
>>> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while
>>> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does
>>> happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a
>>> refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty.
>>>
>> putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not.
>> if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine the
>> cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in
>> wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration.
>
> Can you name a single time that has ever happened?

no i can't. i'm simply saying that it /is/ possible to tell, should
someone want to be that pedantic.

In article > ,
says...
>
>AZ Nomad wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:23:25 -0700, jim beam >
wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Armand wrote:
>>>> In article >,
>>>> says...
>>>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:48:33 -0500,
(Armand)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article >,
>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:50:45 -0500, Armand
>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article
>,
>>>>>>>> says...
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:05:16 GMT, Nino NoSpam
>>>>>>>> <Nino.NoSpam@unsubscribenews> wrot
>>>>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your
>>>> Honda?
>>>>>>>>>> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay
$70-85
>>>> CAD
>>>>>>>>>> upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really,
where
>'s
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install
them
>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty?
>>>>>>>>> they trade filtering performance for air flow performance and they
void
>
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> warranty.
>>>>>>>> FWIW, according to the service manager at my local Honda dealer,
>>>> using a
>>>>>>>> K&N air filter not only won't void the warranty, but he says it will
nei
>ther
>>>>>>>> damage the engine nor increase performance. He says he sees
alot of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> filters in his customers cars.
>>>>>>> He doesn't speak for honda and your report is irrelevent.
>>>>>> And neither do you. You made the statement that it voids warranty.
Can
>>>> you
>>>>>> prove that?
>>>>> Use of aftermarket parts doesn't "void the warranty" but the
>>>>> manufacturer can deny a claim if the damage was caused by the
non-OEM
>>>>> part. If push comes to shove, they have to prove that the part caused
>>>>> the failure. If the cylinder walls are all scratched up and you have
>>>>> a K&N filter, they would probably win.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbploc...011/SPICER.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't worry much about the warranty being voided. Your engine
>>>>> will probably last long enough to get out of the warranty period.
>>>>>
>>>>> The K&N filter lets in a lot more dirt than a top quality paper
>>>>> filter. It may be less restrictive initially, but the difference
>>>>> diminishes and disappears as the filter clogs with dirt. This will
>>>>> probably happen sooner than with the paper filter.
>>>> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a
while
>>>> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything
do
>es
>>>> happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a
>>>> refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's
warranty.
>>>>
>>> putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not.
>>> if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine
the
>>> cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in
>>> wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration.
>>
>> Can you name a single time that has ever happened?
>
>no i can't. i'm simply saying that it /is/ possible to tell, should
>someone want to be that pedantic.

Bamboo shoots under the finger nails might lead to a confession too. ;}

I have used a K&N filter on 3 different vehicles and not only did I
recieve better gas milage but I actually had to clean my throttle body
and intake manifold LESS with the K&N. And it is also true you dont
need to clean it for at least 20,000, some at 50,000. The K&N "look
alikes are what you need to be cautious of, they will be more
restrictive and once they are wet they cannot be used again. I you
want better efficiency and performance from your engine you need a K&N.
The K&N does flow better but at the same time it does not let more dirt
through due to the oiled cotten element. The oil traps the dirt onto
the filter and does not allow it to enter the engine. If you do not
oil the filter you will deffinitly let dirt through.


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I was about 9 years old when I found out that an 'oil-bath' air filter
existed. Later I had a friend with an old Chev Biscayne (sp) that had a
similar thing. There was spoonfuls of sludge in the bottom of his. It
seemed logical to me, since dirt sticks to oil like s#it to a blanket.

Are / were they any good and why aren't they used on modern passenger
cars?

'Curly' (let the flames begin)

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:17:37 -0700, Chromedubs165db > wrote:



>I have used a K&N filter on 3 different vehicles and not only did I
>recieve better gas milage but I actually had to clean my throttle body
>and intake manifold LESS with the K&N. And it is also true you dont

And of course you had two cars driven, one stock and one with the K&N, at
the same time on the same routes so you might have the slightest validity to
your finding, right? Otherwise, your findings are no different than those
who think putting magnets on their fuel lines improve their gas mileage.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:23:25 -0700, jim beam >
wrote:

>>
>> I remember seeing that posted here when I asked about the filters a while
>> back which is why I didn't buy one. But for those that have, If anything does
>> happen, you could put the original OEM back in if you're worried about a
>> refusal to repair under warranty. My 96' Accord is long past it's warranty.
>>
>putting the old filter back on may work with the dealer or it may not.
>if a warranty claim really was push come to shove, you could examine the
>cylinder walls under a microscope and clearly identify a discrepancy in
>wear particle size, hence non-factory filtration.

Or they could find your post on the newsgroups stating you are using a
K&N filter.

'Curly Q. Links' Wrote:
> I was about 9 years old when I found out that an 'oil-bath' air filter
> existed. Later I had a friend with an old Chev Biscayne (sp) that had
> a
> similar thing. There was spoonfuls of sludge in the bottom of his. It
> seemed logical to me, since dirt sticks to oil like s#it to a blanket.
>
> Are / were they any good and why aren't they used on modern passenger
> cars?
>
> 'Curly' (let the flames begin)

Little off subject but a good point.

The old true oil bath filters are the best air filter made.
They catch a lot more real fine dust than the paper types.
They are still used on some HD equipment, stationary engines,farm
tractors.
One qt. of new oil and some cleaning and they are ready to go again.
But who wants to get there hands dirty and pay the extra cost of a good
oil bath filter on a new car.

Way back in the early 60's when I was working for a dealer cry/dodge
HD trucks went from oil bath to paper filters.
The dealership sold about a 100 HD trucks for cement hauling on
construction jobs.
In about 5K-10K miles on every one I was overhauling everyone and
installing a good HD oil bath air filter back on them.
Got so I could ring one one of them in my sleep.
The paper air filter would not catch the fine dust.
Modern car paper filters may be a little better but do not drive in a
lot of dust and dirt. A K&N might work good there.
And if you do carry plenty of spare air filters.:grinyes: :rofl: :lol:

MT


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On 22 Jul 2006 15:40:24 -0700, "Felton Barch" >
wrote:

>
>Nino NoSpam wrote:
>> Does anyone know if it's worth it to buy K & N air filters for your Honda?
>> Does it really improve gas mileage, and is it worth it to pay $70-85 CAD
>> upfront and then another $15.00 for the oil kit? I mean really, where's the
>> savings? If they were that good wouldn't manufacturers install them from the
>> factory? What about warranty? Do they void the warranty?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nino
>
>Yo Nino,
>I've been using K&N filters on a Ford Explorer and Toyota Tundra (dont
>have one yet for my Element) and I have been VERY happy with them. I
>prefer high-quality reusable filters vs the disposable ones. Same is
>true for my house air circulation system. I asked the people over at
>K&N to weigh in on this; here is the reply.
>Great topic - thank you for bringing it up!!!!
>-Steve
>_________________________________________________ ________
>
> The internet is full of thread akin to this. Many people
>assume that they understand the nuances of filtration. There are so
>many misconceptions in that thread alone it would take a good hour to
>explain in type the how and whys. Then you would need to do this at
>about 2K BBB's. K&N filters meet and exceed factory air filters for
>air flow, capacity holding and filter efficiency. All these are tested
>using the ISO 5011 standards that all major air filter manufactures
>use. The "testand" report is full of holes too. The author of
>that report was invited to come to our facilities and bring what ever
>filters he wanted to conduct the test as per the official ISO 5011.
>his prior test was not done correctly. He did show up and did his
>tests and is soon to write a follow up of this experience and his new
>learning.
>
> It is against the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act ( A Federal
>Trade Commission Law) for a dealer to decline warranty on a vehicle
>because of use of a K&N or any other aftermarket air filter.
>
>These links may help you understand more.
>
>http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm

Which says in part:

"This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability
for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or
service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability
where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so
caused."

IOW, if Honda can show that your engine was damaged because the K&N
filter let in too much dirt, they can deny your warranty claim.

Again, it probably doesn't matter because the engine will not be
destroyed during the 36K or 48K warranty period. If the filter lets
in 3X as much dirt, the engine will ingest ~150K worth of dirt by the
time the warranty expires. Since most engines don't expire from any
cause in 150K, it should still be working at 50K. What it is like
when it actually gets to 150K is another story.


>http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm
>
>
>Read the second link in entirety. There is a wealth of information
>there.

A lot of theoretical arguments about why the reusable filter should be
better but not much in the way of hard data. They even admit they
aren't using the "new" ISO 5011 to generate what little data they do
provide. (ISO 5011 is at least two years old. You would think that a
company specializing in air filters could test them using the latest
procedure and post the results. If they really want to convince us,
they could test some OEM and other manufacturer's aftermarket filters
as well.)

Using the old test procedure, "K&N air filters generally achieve
overall filtration efficiency in the range of 97% - 98%." The
reference I posted:

http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbploc...011/SPICER.htm

got an efficiency of 96.8% using ISO 5011. The paper filters tested
were mostly in the 98.63 to 99.93% range. That means that the K&N
filter will admit 2 to 40 times more dirt into the engine.

Note far more information and data is this site. The K&N site is long
on sales pitch but short on actual data.