Can oil & filters change cause enging fire?

The engine in my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country caught fire
yesterday causing total loss of the vehicle.
What is strange about this incident is that it happened
right after the oil change was done by one of the automotive
shop chains, specializing in quick oil, tire, batteries
and other small car repairs. It actually happened just
minutes after I left their location and was driving back
home.
I understand that many things may cause engine fire, but
on the other hand it happened so immediately after the
oil change was performed, that it is very hard to believe
that it was purely coincidental.
The repair included air and oil filters change and engine
oil change. Shortly after I started on my way home, I felt
fain smell as if of burning oil. Ironically, the fact that
the oil change was just done made me complacent about
it - I thought it was some small spillage. When it became
stronger and visible smoke appeared, I stopped, cut the
engine, went out and opened the hood. Unfortunately, it
was too late: there was a lot of smoke and the left side
of the battery, closer to the engine was on fire and
dripped plastic. When the fire department arrived,
the whole of the engine compartment was burning.

Some questions I have: Could the oil and filters change
cause engine fire so soon after it was done?
I asked both the fire marshal's and the tow truck driver's
opinion. Both think that it is unlikely. They said that
it takes a lot to actually ignite oil even if it spilled
as a result of incompetent repair. Also, the firemen
succeeded extracting the oil probe after extinguishing the
fire and it seemed to indicate that there was oil in the
engine.
I did some web research on the year/model after I came
home and found out that there was indeed recall on 1999
Chrysler T&C back in 2002 related to increased incidents
of engine fires.
This is the recall description:
http://auto-recalls.justia.com/conte...NTRY-1999.html
Summary:
vehicle description: mini vans built with 3.3l and
3.8l engines have fuel rails with nitrole rubber
o-ring seals that can degrade over time. fuel leakage
from the underhood fuel injection fuel rail could result,
increasing the likelihood of a vehicle fire.

The problem is that this vehicle was with previous owner in
2002. I bought it in 2003.
I'm wondering if the recall-related repairs were
performed. Will the dealer, where routine service was done
at the time give me this information or should I call
Chrysler's recalls information line?
Do car manufacturers keep centralized database of
recall-related repairs done by VIN based on dealers'
information?

I apologize for the long post. - Wanted to give all
the facts. I'm not trying to put the blame on anybody -
just trying to understand what went wrong.
At this point I see a lot of my blame in all this - for not
researching the recall history and not checking what recall
repairs were actually done and most of all for not having
a fire extinguisher in the car...
But still I somehow have this lingering suspicion that some
blunder occurred during the oil & filters change which they
didn't tell me about - it all happened just too soon after it.

IP.

Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under the
engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .

That said, like you, I would strongly suspect that the timing of this
incident was not purely coincidental! It's hard to imagine what they could
have screwed up while simply changing air and oil filters, but hey, stranger
things have happened. Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were
changing the air filter or a PCV valve or filling the oil through the fill
hole?

Bob


"I.Pavlov" > wrote in message
news
>
> The engine in my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country caught fire
> yesterday causing total loss of the vehicle.

Thank you for your reply.
Please see some additional comments below.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:54:25 -0500, Bob Shuman wrote:
> Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
> change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under the
> engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .
I researched the oil as cause of fire and it does seem unlikely.

>
> That said, like you, I would strongly suspect that the timing of this
> incident was not purely coincidental! It's hard to imagine what they could
> have screwed up while simply changing air and oil filters, but hey, stranger
> things have happened. Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were
> changing the air filter or a PCV valve or filling the oil through the fill
> hole?
That was my initial suspicion too - both fire captain and tow truck guy said
that fire caused by oil leak is unlikely. The engine was cooling for two
hour and then it all happened just minutes from when it was started again.
They suggested fuel leak or fault in electric system or battery as a cause.

The service took unusually long - it normally takes an hour or so, but in
this case it took almost two. Last half hour, which I waited nearby,
I've seen mechanic busy working from the top part of the engine.
I even had some feeling that there is something wrong besides the service
I asked to do, but they didn't tell me anything, although I must admit
that I didn't ask when they finished.
Could it be the air filter that took him so long or he was trying to fix
something that he messed up accidentally?

I'm also wondering should I pursue this with this repair shop chain.
They have a big name and probably will be very defensive and deny
everything if I try to blame it on them. Also it looks almost hopeless
to prove anything at this point and confirm their fault as causing fire -
the engine compartment is badly burned and by looking at it there is no
clear indication of where it started.. I was thinking about going to
them today and asking if there was anything else they did on the engine
or any difficulty with the oil and filters change without giving any
indication of what happen to the van after the service.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,

>
> Bob
>
>
> "I.Pavlov" > wrote in message
> news
>>
>> The engine in my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country caught fire
>> yesterday causing total loss of the vehicle.

"I.Pavlov" > wrote in message
news
>
> The engine in my 1999 Chrysler Town & Country caught fire
> yesterday causing total loss of the vehicle.
> What is strange about this incident is that it happened
> right after the oil change was done by one of the automotive
> shop chains, specializing in quick oil, tire, batteries
> and other small car repairs. It actually happened just
> minutes after I left their location and was driving back
> home.
> I understand that many things may cause engine fire, but
> on the other hand it happened so immediately after the
> oil change was performed, that it is very hard to believe
> that it was purely coincidental.
> The repair included air and oil filters change and engine
> oil change. Shortly after I started on my way home, I felt
> fain smell as if of burning oil. Ironically, the fact that
> the oil change was just done made me complacent about
> it - I thought it was some small spillage. When it became
> stronger and visible smoke appeared, I stopped, cut the
> engine, went out and opened the hood. Unfortunately, it
> was too late: there was a lot of smoke and the left side
> of the battery, closer to the engine was on fire and
> dripped plastic. When the fire department arrived,
> the whole of the engine compartment was burning.
>
> Some questions I have: Could the oil and filters change
> cause engine fire so soon after it was done?
> I asked both the fire marshal's and the tow truck driver's
> opinion. Both think that it is unlikely. They said that
> it takes a lot to actually ignite oil even if it spilled
> as a result of incompetent repair. Also, the firemen
> succeeded extracting the oil probe after extinguishing the
> fire and it seemed to indicate that there was oil in the
> engine.
> I did some web research on the year/model after I came
> home and found out that there was indeed recall on 1999
> Chrysler T&C back in 2002 related to increased incidents
> of engine fires.
> This is the recall description:
>
http://auto-recalls.justia.com/conte...NTRY-1999.html
> Summary:
> vehicle description: mini vans built with 3.3l and
> 3.8l engines have fuel rails with nitrole rubber
> o-ring seals that can degrade over time. fuel leakage
> from the underhood fuel injection fuel rail could result,
> increasing the likelihood of a vehicle fire.
>
> The problem is that this vehicle was with previous owner in
> 2002. I bought it in 2003.
> I'm wondering if the recall-related repairs were
> performed. Will the dealer, where routine service was done
> at the time give me this information or should I call
> Chrysler's recalls information line?
> Do car manufacturers keep centralized database of
> recall-related repairs done by VIN based on dealers'
> information?
>
> I apologize for the long post. - Wanted to give all
> the facts. I'm not trying to put the blame on anybody -
> just trying to understand what went wrong.
> At this point I see a lot of my blame in all this - for not
> researching the recall history and not checking what recall
> repairs were actually done and most of all for not having
> a fire extinguisher in the car...
> But still I somehow have this lingering suspicion that some
> blunder occurred during the oil & filters change which they
> didn't tell me about - it all happened just too soon after it.
>
> IP.
>

You can give the dealer your vin number and they can tell if if there is any
outstanding recalls on your vehicle.
The fuel rail fix was replacing the rail assembly if it is already leaking
( you would have been smelling fuel ) and if it wasnt to install these seals
and clamps
I have seen some fires related to oil but those were on the old turbo
vehicles Chrysler had. The power steering pressure hose could develope a
leak and spray on the catylitic convertor and catch fire. (mine was one of
them). I dont think you oil change was related, especially if you say it
occured on the battery side of the vehicle.
My opinion only

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

>
> You can give the dealer your vin number and they can tell if if there is any
> outstanding recalls on your vehicle.
I used Chrysler's web site to check if there are any recalls not performed.
There doesn't seem to be any. It looks like it is the same source of
information the dealers would use - there is the link from the "Owners" page
to the recalls query. Mine didn't return any outstanding recalls.

> The fuel rail fix was replacing the rail assembly if it is already leaking
> ( you would have been smelling fuel ) and if it wasnt to install these seals
> and clamps
I wasn't smelling fuel while driving, but now that you mentioned it, I should
say that while the van was parked in enclosed garage there was fain smell,
sort of mixed oil & fuel smell. My other car, Honda Accord didn't smell at all.
I wonder if this fuel rail recall repair was actually performed on my vehicle
since it was with the previous owner on the year of recall - 2002. Would it be
visible as pending in recalls query I done through chrysler.com if previous
owner didn't apply for this recall repairs to be performed? - I think it would
since the query is for all the recalls which where not actually performed.
I'll try to call the dealer where it was serviced by the previous owner to
try and find out if it was indeed done.

> I have seen some fires related to oil but those were on the old turbo
> vehicles Chrysler had. The power steering pressure hose could develop a
> leak and spray on the catylitic convertor and catch fire. (mine was one of
> them). I dont think you oil change was related, especially if you say it
> occured on the battery side of the vehicle.
> My opinion only
>
> Glenn Beasley
> Chrysler Tech

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Bob Shuman wrote:

> Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
> change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under
> the engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .

Engine oil is not as difficult to ignite as you seem to think.

> Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were changing the air
> filter

Do you even know what a fuel rail *looks* like? It's not something that
can be "knocked loose while changing the air filter".

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, I.Pavlov wrote:

> The service took unusually long - it normally takes an hour or so, but in
> this case it took almost two. Last half hour, which I waited nearby,
> I've seen mechanic busy working from the top part of the engine.
> I even had some feeling that there is something wrong besides the service
> I asked to do, but they didn't tell me anything, although I must admit
> that I didn't ask when they finished.

So your judgement was poor twice: Once when you went to the quickie oil
change house in the first place, and again when you failed to demand an
explanation for the hour's worth of futzing around under the hood.

> Could it be the air filter that took him so long

No, replacing the air filter takes a few minutes max.

> or he was trying to fix something that he messed up accidentally?

Very likely.


> I'm also wondering should I pursue this with this repair shop chain.

Of course you should!

Dan,

In answer to your question, I most certainly do know what the fuel rail
looks like. It seems presumptuous of you to assume I do not by asking this
question.

The bottom line here is we will likely never know what caused the fire. I
was offering an opinion since the OP had requested this from newsgroup
readers.. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well and it is fine
with me that it differs from my own. That said, your question appears to be
demeaning and was not called for...

Yes, I'll admit that oil leakage could certainly have been the cause of the
engine fire, but it's flash point is much higher than that of gasoline, and
the location of the oil filter on the 3.8L engine is not conducive to the
theory that this was started by the high temperatures at the exhaust
manifold or catalytic converter.

Bob

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Bob Shuman wrote:
>
> > Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
> > change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under
> > the engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .
>
> Engine oil is not as difficult to ignite as you seem to think.
>
> > Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were changing the air
> > filter
>
> Do you even know what a fuel rail *looks* like? It's not something that
> can be "knocked loose while changing the air filter".

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:28:35 -0400, Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Bob Shuman wrote:
>
>> Sorry to hear about the fire and loss. I doubt the actual oil or filter
>> change was the root cause here since both are primarily done from under
>> the engine and related to the oil (which does not burn easily) .
>
> Engine oil is not as difficult to ignite as you seem to think.
Could the engine be hot enough after driving for five minutes to
ignite it if it was not working for almost two hours before that?
Also fire dept. extracted the oil probe after putting out the fire.
It indicated there was oil in the engine. Also there was no lights
indicating that something was wrong.

>
>> Maybe they knocked a fuel rail loose while they were changing the air
>> filter
>
> Do you even know what a fuel rail *looks* like? It's not something that
> can be "knocked loose while changing the air filter".
I don't have any idea what it is. Is it close enough to air filter to
accidentally damage it while changing the air filter?

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:11:31 -0500, Bob Shuman wrote:
> The bottom line here is we will likely never know what caused the fire. I
> was offering an opinion since the OP had requested this from newsgroup
> readers..
I very much appreciate your opinion. It is very helpful and knowledgeable.
Unfortunately, it'll probably be impossible to determine what caused the fire.
To quote the fire captain: "There's plenty of staff here that can burn".
Even headlights lids are made of plastic. BTW in tow truck guy's opinion,
batteries are frequently causing fires too. I'm not sure whether he meant
battery causing fire all by itself or electric wiring

> Yes, I'll admit that oil leakage could certainly have been the cause of the
> engine fire, but it's flash point is much higher than that of gasoline, and
> the location of the oil filter on the 3.8L engine is not conducive to the
> theory that this was started by the high temperatures at the exhaust
> manifold or catalytic converter.
In your opinion, is it worth while pursuing it with this repair shop or they
would just flatly deny any involvement? I also tried consulting attorneys,
but those guys are after bigger cases for the most part. Besides, as many
posters mentioned, it would be probably hard to prove direct relation of
the work performed to the fire and attempts to litigate this may cause
some additional fees and lawyer's fees besides the car that is already lost.
What do you think?