Dirty power steering fluid: This a scam?

jim beam > wrote:
>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>
>there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to change
>power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>overheated.

It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
follow the extreme service one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim > wrote:
>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>
>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to change
>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>> overheated.
>
> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
> follow the extreme service one.
> --scott

how old is "old"? has nothing changed?


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> jim > wrote:
>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>
>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to change
>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>>> overheated.
>>
>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
>> follow the extreme service one.
>> --scott
>
> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>

I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.

There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>
>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to change
>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>>>> overheated.
>>>
>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>> --scott
>>
>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>
>
> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>
> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>
> nate
>
>

based on what dude? do you have hard data?

i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of analysis -
either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/

if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
frequently as they did before!


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>
>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>> change
>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>>>>> overheated.
>>>>
>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>> --scott
>>>
>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>
>>
>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>
>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>
>> nate
>>
>>
>
> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>
> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of analysis -
> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>
> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
> frequently as they did before!
>
>

I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile intervals.
I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
been proven to my satisfaction to outlive the fundamental mechanical
parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
premature failure.

Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/10/2010 11:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> overheated.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my
>>>>> old
>>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
>>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>>> --scott
>>>>
>>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
>>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
>>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>>
>>
>> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>>
>> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
>> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
>> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of analysis -
>> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
>> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>>
>> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
>> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
>> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
>> frequently as they did before!
>>
>>
>
> I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile intervals.
> I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
> several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
> been proven to my satisfaction

determined how?


> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
> premature failure.
>
> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>
> nate
>

well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 10/10/2010 02:30 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 11:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> overheated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my
>>>>>> old
>>>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one.
>>>>>> Always
>>>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>
>>>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>>>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
>>>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>>>
>>>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
>>>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>>>
>>>> nate
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>>>
>>> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
>>> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
>>> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of analysis -
>>> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
>>> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>>>
>>> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
>>> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
>>> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
>>> frequently as they did before!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile intervals.
>> I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
>> several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
>> been proven to my satisfaction
>
> determined how?
>
>
>> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
>> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
>> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
>> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
>> premature failure.
>>
>> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
>> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
> why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
> change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.
>

Actually many new car manuals treat brake fluid as a "lifetime" fluid.
but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
should be changed.

The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
already explained.

The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
my service is unusually severe.

nate

(in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/10/2010 11:35 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 02:30 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 11:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> overheated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my
>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one.
>>>>>>> Always
>>>>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>>>>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
>>>>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the
>>>>> manual
>>>>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>>>>
>>>> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
>>>> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
>>>> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of
>>>> analysis -
>>>> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
>>>> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>>>>
>>>> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
>>>> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
>>>> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
>>>> frequently as they did before!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile intervals.
>>> I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
>>> several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
>>> been proven to my satisfaction
>>
>> determined how?
>>
>>
>>> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
>>> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
>>> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
>>> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
>>> premature failure.
>>>
>>> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
>>> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>
>> well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
>> why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
>> change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.
>>
>
> Actually many new car manuals treat brake fluid as a "lifetime" fluid.

unless you can enlighten me otherwise, the only one i'm aware of is
frod. and given frod's history of utter ruthlessness when it comes to
economics vs. engineering and driver safety, that's entirely unsurprising.


> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
> should be changed.
>
> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
> already explained.

atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
[on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the same.


>
> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
> my service is unusually severe.

differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
and i'm not aware of anyone that has.


>
> nate
>
> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)

wow - that explains a lot!


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 21:17:32 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> > wrote:
>>I always tell them NOT to check any other fluids and to only do the oil
>>change but they present me with this "finding" every time.... and show me
>>how DIRTY my power steering fluid is and asking if I want to change it
>>out.
>>
>>Question: Is this a legit concern? Dirty power steering fluid and should
>>I have it changed?
>
> Well, when did you last change it?
>
>>Or is this some kind of scam?
>>
>>Car is a 2000 Mazda Protege with 200k miles on it and I am original
>>owner.
>
> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
> manual, you have changed it at least twice already. --scott

You have to change PS fluid? Wow!
(My Hachiroku has 259,000 on it and has NEVER had a PS change! Shoot, it's
on the original clutch!)


--
It says Last...In...Kadora
Gimme that! "La Stinkadora"

On 10/11/2010 03:39 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 10/10/2010 11:35 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 02:30 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 11:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> overheated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my
>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one.
>>>>>>>> Always
>>>>>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>>>>>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
>>>>>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the
>>>>>> manual
>>>>>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nate
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>>>>>
>>>>> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil
>>>>> [the
>>>>> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
>>>>> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of
>>>>> analysis -
>>>>> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
>>>>> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>>>>>
>>>>> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
>>>>> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
>>>>> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
>>>>> frequently as they did before!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile
>>>> intervals.
>>>> I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
>>>> several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
>>>> been proven to my satisfaction
>>>
>>> determined how?
>>>
>>>
>>>> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
>>>> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
>>>> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
>>>> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
>>>> premature failure.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
>>>> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>>>>
>>>> nate
>>>>
>>>
>>> well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
>>> why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
>>> change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.
>>>
>>
>> Actually many new car manuals treat brake fluid as a "lifetime" fluid.
>
> unless you can enlighten me otherwise, the only one i'm aware of is
> frod. and given frod's history of utter ruthlessness when it comes to
> economics vs. engineering and driver safety, that's entirely unsurprising.

And GM. Not sure about Chrysler, haven't had one.

>
>> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
>> should be changed.
>>
>> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
>> already explained.
>
> atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
> already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
> anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
> [on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
> environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the
> same.

Right, but some mfgrs. are listing ATF as a "lifetime" fluid now, and
even if the manual says that, I take it with a grain of salt. And PS
fluid *can* get wear particulates in it, and it can overheat if a
vehicle is driven "assertively." Also I believe I've already related
one anecdote where a vehicle that I had personal experience with had
"dead" PS come back to life after a simple fluid flush.

No skin off my nose if you don't change it, but to say that it's stupid
to do so is a bit of an exaggeration and not always true.

>
>>
>> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
>> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
>> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
>> my service is unusually severe.
>
> differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
> and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
> manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
> and i'm not aware of anyone that has.

True. yet again showing that what a mfgr. may list as a "lifetime"
fluid may still need to be changed periodically if one is shooting for
really high mileage out of one's vehicle.

>>
>> nate
>>
>> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
>> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
>
> wow - that explains a lot!

such as... I don't feel that I need 'em, and don't like extraneous stuff
that adds weight and requires maintenance?

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel