Stupid question (was Changing the oil filter only)

Sorry for the stupid question...............

When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles in
at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).

What if I drove my car only 3000 miles a year......do I still need to
change the oil every 3 months.........

Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month or 6
months......or...........

Not trying to be a wise ass.....................more question to
follow.......not the same subject...........Thanks

Bill F wrote:

> Sorry for the stupid question...............
>
> When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
> date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles in
> at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).

3000 miles or 3 months is a rather "conservative" figure. It's a nice
round number that's easy to remember. Most carmakers now specify a
slightly longer period (3750-5000) for their "severe" conditions oil
change. If you're driving short trips every day and only racking up
1000 miles......yeah - do it every three months.

> What if I drove my car only 3000 miles a year......do I still need to
> change the oil every 3 months.........

Tough call. If you're mostly taking the car out for 10+ miles at a
time and garaging it otherwise, then twice a year might be a better
choice. That's what most manufacturers would recommend. That's a
rather unusual driving pattern, and the manufacturers' periods
don't adequately cover that. What if a car is mothballed for two
years while someone is overseas? I don't think the oil needs to
be changed on a car

The ideal would be one of those cars where an onboard computer
recommends oil change times based on driving conditions and time.
Those actually crunch the numbers rather than simply provide a
"lowest common denominator" that's really meant to cover their
collective asses. Of course most people here used to 3000 mile
oil changes would freak out at how long these things say to go
between oil changes.

> Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month or 6
> months......or...........

I wouldn't get overly anal about it. The oil is probably stable, but
the container's seal might not be tight enough to prevent moisture
from entering.

> Not trying to be a wise ass.....................more question to
> follow.......not the same subject...........Thanks

This stuff is discussed all the time.

"Bill F" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry for the stupid question...............
>
> When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
> date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles in
> at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).
>

What schedule does the manufacturer recommend for your model of car?
Follow this, or if you are particularly fussy, shorten the schedule by 15 to
20% using the recomended oils and filters. Remember in particular that there
is much more to servicing your car than oil changes.




> What if I drove my car only 3000 miles a year......do I still need to
> change the oil every 3 months.........
>

You've got to be kidding? If you have any common sense at all, use it.



> Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month or 6
> months......or...........

Wasn't it born in the time of the dinasaurs? Why should it worry you? It is
not fresh cream after all!
Officially, most oils have at least a five year shelf life but an unopened
can will last almost indeffinately. Be aware that oil standards change [for
the better?] on a fairly regular basis so if you buy too much oil today, it
would probably not be suitable for thae car you run in five years time.


Huw



>
> Not trying to be a wise ass.....................more question to
> follow.......not the same subject...........Thanks

Bill F > wrote in
:

> Sorry for the stupid question...............
>
> When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
> date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles in
> at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).
>
>snip<
>
> Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month or 6
> months......or...........

Yes, but maybe not at 3 months, could probably extend it to 4. The
problem is all the contaminents the oil picks up while in the crankcase,
and the additives it looses while in the crankcase.
While on the shelf, the oil is not in contact with metal, rubber, fuel,
carbon deposits, water and acids like it is when it is in the crankcase.
The anti-corrosion additives in the oil get used up, whether it is
running in the motor, or sitting in the crankcase. Running the car
actually will improve the life of the oil over sitting, as a considerable
amount of the contaminents get 'boiled off' or evaporated when the oil is
heated for a long enough time.







--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Anthony wrote:
> Bill F > wrote in
> :
>
> > Sorry for the stupid question...............
> >
> > When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
> > date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles
in
> > at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).
> >
> >snip<
> >
> > Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month
or 6
> > months......or...........
>
> Yes, but maybe not at 3 months, could probably extend it to 4. The
> problem is all the contaminents the oil picks up while in the
crankcase,
> and the additives it looses while in the crankcase.
> While on the shelf, the oil is not in contact with metal, rubber,
fuel,
> carbon deposits, water and acids like it is when it is in the
crankcase.
> The anti-corrosion additives in the oil get used up, whether it is
> running in the motor, or sitting in the crankcase. Running the car
> actually will improve the life of the oil over sitting, as a
considerable
> amount of the contaminents get 'boiled off' or evaporated when the
oil is
> heated for a long enough time.

Most oil bottles are not hermetically sealed (i.e. air-tight),
with the exception of 4/5 quart jugs. You could get some moisture
in there, but I wouldn't worry about storing a bottle of oil for
four or five years.

I guess it's tricky for a car in long-term storage, or even a car
stored over the winter. I understand the ideal would be to have
the engine run every month or so, but the trick is finding someone
to do it. I can't imagine that a car that's stored and driven less
than a 100 miles over two or three years would really need to have
the oil changed every three or six months. These are "one size
fits all" guidelines for cars that actually driven regularly.

Ever consider using synthetics to extend the period between changes? More
up front cost but it basically evens out to be the same. Synthetics hold
up much better in storage as well as through regular driving intervals. If
I had a vehicle under these circimstances, I would do synthetics and only
change once a year. Just my two cents.

Bill F wrote:

> Sorry for the stupid question...............
>
> When I have my oil changed (and filter) ...they say 3000 mile or a
> date......lets say 3 months.......If I drive my car only 1000 miles in
> at 3 months , do I really need a oil change (and filter).
>
> What if I drove my car only 3000 miles a year......do I still need to
> change the oil every 3 months.........
>
> Just how old is the oil that you buy off the shelf........1 month or 6
> months......or...........
>
> Not trying to be a wise ass.....................more question to
> follow.......not the same subject...........Thanks

"Gettin Dizzy" wrote:

> If I had a vehicle under these circimstances, I
> would do synthetics and only change once a year.

FWIW, the maintenance schedule for my 2004 VW Golf (2.0L gasoline
engine) advises to change oil every 10K miles (except under severe
driving conditions, or for the very first oil change at 5K miles).

Frankly, I get nervous at the idea of going 10K miles between oil
changes -- even with synthetic oil. What do other readers think?

Rich Wales http://www.richw.org

"Rich Wales" > wrote in message
g...
> "Gettin Dizzy" wrote:
>
> > If I had a vehicle under these circimstances, I
> > would do synthetics and only change once a year.
>
> FWIW, the maintenance schedule for my 2004 VW Golf (2.0L gasoline
> engine) advises to change oil every 10K miles (except under severe
> driving conditions, or for the very first oil change at 5K miles).
>
> Frankly, I get nervous at the idea of going 10K miles between oil
> changes -- even with synthetic oil. What do other readers think?
>

In areas other than the USA these cars have up to 20,000 mile service
intervals and the diesels have up to 30,000 mile intervals, so I hardly
think you should be nervous. In fact they don't even need an early oil
change in most countries but their experience in the USA was that when they
tried this, a large proportion of owners changed before the first thousand
miles to the detriment of proper running-in. If these high quality engines
have their oil changed too early they will never bed in and will consume oil
in large quantity. The reasoning of VW USA worked because when they
shortened the first oil change to 5k miles the number of people who changed
extremely early fell substantially and so they had fewer complaints of oil
consumption.
FWIW I have experience of an Audi which was serviced every 20,000 miles and
which was sweet as a nut at 200,000 miles. This does not mean that I
advocate your car to run at those intervals. I only use these examples to
illustrate why 10,000 mile services are conservative for these cars.

Huw

"Huw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rich Wales" > wrote in message
> g...
> > "Gettin Dizzy" wrote:
> >
> > > If I had a vehicle under these circimstances, I
> > > would do synthetics and only change once a year.
> >
> > FWIW, the maintenance schedule for my 2004 VW Golf (2.0L gasoline
> > engine) advises to change oil every 10K miles (except under severe
> > driving conditions, or for the very first oil change at 5K miles).
> >
> > Frankly, I get nervous at the idea of going 10K miles between oil
> > changes -- even with synthetic oil. What do other readers think?
> >
>
> In areas other than the USA these cars have up to 20,000 mile service
> intervals and the diesels have up to 30,000 mile intervals, so I hardly
> think you should be nervous. In fact they don't even need an early oil
> change in most countries but their experience in the USA was that when
they
> tried this, a large proportion of owners changed before the first thousand
> miles to the detriment of proper running-in. If these high quality engines
> have their oil changed too early they will never bed in and will consume
oil
> in large quantity. The reasoning of VW USA worked because when they
> shortened the first oil change to 5k miles the number of people who
changed
> extremely early fell substantially and so they had fewer complaints of oil
> consumption.

This story has been kicking around Usenet for years and was as much baloney
then as it is today.

The fact is that oil that is loaded up with contaminants just makes the
engine
wear out more quickly, it doesen't help it 'bed in' better. The only thing
in
a new engine that ever 'beds in' are the piston rings and today rings have
coatings on them that greatly reduce the long procedures to get them to
bed in. If you simply drive at varying RPM, not sustained RPM, for the
first
couple hundred miles then the engine is completely 'bedded in', this
'bedding in'
process is complete long before the first oil change.

I think the VW story is attractive to foreign engine snobs, because it
sounds
like it's 'superior' VW engineering. But it has no basis in any
metalurgical
realities. I supect the foreign car snobs make these stories up to let
themselves
feel better about spending an extra $5K on their vehicles.

If VW had problems with oil consumption for long oil change intervals in the
US the reason was
simple. In the US the NEW car-driving population does not check their
engine
oil level every time they get gas, or for that matter, on any regular basis
at
all. If you sold this group of people a new car and told them that it
didn't need
an oil change yet but every 10K miles they would do exactly the same thing
they do with cars that are sold with 3K oil changes - they would ignore the
oil
level and the filter for 10K miles. It's not because they are stupid, it's
because
that is how they have got trained to doing it. As a result the oil filter
would go
into bypass mode long before the next change, and the oil would turn into
sandpaper
on the inside of the engine.

There's been a number of studies done by individuals with a variety of
domestic
vehicles to see if long term 10K oil changes can be done. It doesen't cost
that
much money to have an oil analysis done, so anyone can do them. The
domestic
engines can go to 10K changes too with no problem. What must be done is
that the oil FILTER must be changed out at 3K intervals and the oil level
must
be maintained. Additionally, the vehicle must see a good solid amount of
sustained
high speed driving for long time periods, at least a half hour to get it hot
enough
to boil off the water. Also, the PCV system must be maintained in tip top
shape.
These are factors that aren't true in all vehicles. And frankly if the
owner is
paying a lube place to do this his in-and-out cost on a filter will be
almost the same
as if he just does a complete oil change.

There are some other critical differences between Europeans and Americans on
vehicle ownership. In the US vehicle ownership is 75% of the population, in
Europe it's 50%. That is, there's at least 25% more of the US population
that
owns vehicles. In Europe, only people who can afford it buy a car

In the US, just like in Europe, only 50% of the general population can
afford to
own a car. As a result that extra block of the population owning cars are
the
folks that cannot afford to own them. Since they cannot afford it, they
don't put in the maintainence needed to keep it running well. This skews
the results
of any comparison made between American and European vehicle ownership
because a large number of the vehicle owners in the US cannot afford to put
enough
money into properly maintaining their vehicle, whereas in Europe it's a
given that
all vehicle owners can afford to maintain their vehicles.

Another critical difference is cost of petroleum products - much higher in
Europe.
In the United States, the cost for a do-it-yourselfer to change their oil on
a
typical non-synthetic oil engine totals about $8-10, this includes the oil
and filter
cost. There is therefore very little cost incentive to extend oil changes.

Ted

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Huw" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Rich Wales" > wrote in message
>> g...
>> > "Gettin Dizzy" wrote:
>> >
>> > > If I had a vehicle under these circimstances, I
>> > > would do synthetics and only change once a year.
>> >
>> > FWIW, the maintenance schedule for my 2004 VW Golf (2.0L gasoline
>> > engine) advises to change oil every 10K miles (except under severe
>> > driving conditions, or for the very first oil change at 5K miles).
>> >
>> > Frankly, I get nervous at the idea of going 10K miles between oil
>> > changes -- even with synthetic oil. What do other readers think?
>> >
>>
>> In areas other than the USA these cars have up to 20,000 mile service
>> intervals and the diesels have up to 30,000 mile intervals, so I hardly
>> think you should be nervous. In fact they don't even need an early oil
>> change in most countries but their experience in the USA was that when
> they
>> tried this, a large proportion of owners changed before the first
>> thousand
>> miles to the detriment of proper running-in. If these high quality
>> engines
>> have their oil changed too early they will never bed in and will consume
> oil
>> in large quantity. The reasoning of VW USA worked because when they
>> shortened the first oil change to 5k miles the number of people who
> changed
>> extremely early fell substantially and so they had fewer complaints of
>> oil
>> consumption.
>
> This story has been kicking around Usenet for years and was as much
> baloney
> then as it is today.
>
> The fact is that oil that is loaded up with contaminants just makes the
> engine
> wear out more quickly, it doesen't help it 'bed in' better. The only
> thing
> in
> a new engine that ever 'beds in' are the piston rings and today rings have
> coatings on them that greatly reduce the long procedures to get them to
> bed in. If you simply drive at varying RPM, not sustained RPM, for the
> first

While your running-in technique is good you are sadly mistaken in the rest
of your post. No one at all thinks that crud in the oil aids bedding.
However, there is no significant wear inducing crud in the oil at 5000 miles
on these engines which would indicate a necessary oil change.




> couple hundred miles then the engine is completely 'bedded in', this
> 'bedding in'
> process is complete long before the first oil change.

Not on high quality engines which require some considerable mileage to bed
in due to the hardness of materials used. Many [most]European engines do not
have an early first service any more, even those with long intervals. My
latest BMW engine has now done 5000 miles from new and the computer
indicated that the first service will be due some time around 14000 miles.
It has been driven reasonably hard and uses no oil.
I have a VW garage as a neighbour and it is well known that more careful
owners who change their oil early and baby their new cars have the problems
with oil consumption. Once this starts there are a few choices. One can run
it hard for a few thousand miles on poor quality or glaze busting oil or one
has to open the engine and hone it again or one can just keep pouring oil in
the top.




>
> I think the VW story is attractive to foreign engine snobs, because it
> sounds
> like it's 'superior' VW engineering. But it has no basis in any
> metalurgical
> realities.

Oh? It is a very well know phenomenon among diesel engine users. Not that an
engine does not need an early first service that is, but that it needs a
reasonable load and some time to bed an engine in. The fact that modern
engines from most manufacturers no longer need an early first change is down
to better machine tools and cleanliness at the manufacturing stage. Combine
an engine with hard materials, which has an extended running-in time of
maybe 10,000 miles with modern manufacture and this eliminates the first oil
change. Combine this with oils and filtration which allows service intervals
of 10000 to 20,000 miles and you have a low maintenance engine which is as
reliable and long lived as any other.




I suspect the foreign car snobs make these stories up to let
> themselves
> feel better about spending an extra $5K on their vehicles.
>
> If VW had problems with oil consumption for long oil change intervals in
> the
> US the reason was
> simple. In the US the NEW car-driving population does not check their
> engine
> oil level every time they get gas, or for that matter, on any regular
> basis
> at
> all. If you sold this group of people a new car and told them that it
> didn't need
> an oil change yet but every 10K miles they would do exactly the same thing
> they do with cars that are sold with 3K oil changes - they would ignore
> the
> oil
> level and the filter for 10K miles. It's not because they are stupid,
> it's
> because
> that is how they have got trained to doing it. As a result the oil filter
> would go
> into bypass mode long before the next change, and the oil would turn into
> sandpaper
> on the inside of the engine.

You confuse two issues here. You seem to say that the problem is that owners
do not check their oil level and use this as a reason for early [3000 mile?]
oil changes. This is not a valid reason as some old engines might well use a
quart every thousand miles and would still run drastically short of oil at
3000 miles. Besides which, most modern VW's have an electrical oil level
warning system which will warn well in advance of low oil level in the sump.
Or even high oil level come to that. If it fails, it fails safe.
Secondly you assume a filter would clog before the oil change interval. Well
I've got news for you. In Europe these engines have a 20,000 mile schedule
for high mileage drivers and the 10,000 mile interval is for low mileage and
severe use. This has been the case here since the mid '80's with no problems
reported.

So it seems that you have been programmed or brainwashed to expect an engine
to need certain care. In fact engines need different care and maintenance
depending on their design, even within the same manufacturers family. Even
the same engines in the same application might have different schedules. I
have illustrated this already above but VW also have a different regime when
engines are fitted with the dynamic service indication system. For these,
and they may be the same basic engines as above, the schedule is flexible
and driving conditions and oil condition is monitored in real time. The
schedule for some petrol engines can be 20,000 miles or two years while
diesel engines will have intervals of up to 30,000 miles or two years. These
engines, particularly the diesel, require quite expensive oil, but every
engine has a preferred oil specification to use.




>
> There's been a number of studies done by individuals with a variety of
> domestic
> vehicles to see if long term 10K oil changes can be done. It doesen't
> cost
> that
> much money to have an oil analysis done, so anyone can do them. The
> domestic
> engines can go to 10K changes too with no problem. What must be done is
> that the oil FILTER must be changed out at 3K intervals


Only if the oil filter is of an inadequate design. Modern Ford petrol
engines here have 12000 mile service intervals with no interim scheduled oil
or filter changes. Their modern engines last much longer, by a factor of
four or five times longer, than their engines from the 1960's and 70's which
had their oil changed every 3000 miles. Go figure!




and the oil level
> must
> be maintained.

Obviously. Most modern engine rarely use more than a quart every 10,000
miles after the first 15000 or so anyhow. As long as one gives it a quick
check every time the screen washer bottle is filled then there should be no
problem even without the, now common, oil level idiot light.



Additionally, the vehicle must see a good solid amount of
> sustained
> high speed driving for long time periods, at least a half hour to get it
> hot
> enough
> to boil off the water. Also, the PCV system must be maintained in tip top
> shape.
> These are factors that aren't true in all vehicles. And frankly if the
> owner is
> paying a lube place to do this his in-and-out cost on a filter will be
> almost the same
> as if he just does a complete oil change.
>
> There are some other critical differences between Europeans and Americans
> on
> vehicle ownership. In the US vehicle ownership is 75% of the population,
> in
> Europe it's 50%. That is, there's at least 25% more of the US population
> that
> owns vehicles. In Europe, only people who can afford it buy a car

Don't be daft. Most Western European families are now two and three car
families. The exception is probably in large cities where congestion and
parking problems makes it more convenient to go by bus or tube.
Maybe if your Europe consists of just the countries that have emerged from
behind the iron curtain and Ottoman area ten your figures might be more
accurate. Otherwise they are frankly rubbish and show a great deal of
ignorance. You must be one of the 95% of Americans who does not own a
passport.





>
> In the US, just like in Europe, only 50% of the general population can
> afford to
> own a car. As a result that extra block of the population owning cars are
> the
> folks that cannot afford to own them. Since they cannot afford it, they
> don't put in the maintainence needed to keep it running well. This skews
> the results
> of any comparison made between American and European vehicle ownership
> because a large number of the vehicle owners in the US cannot afford to
> put
> enough
> money into properly maintaining their vehicle, whereas in Europe it's a
> given that
> all vehicle owners can afford to maintain their vehicles.
>

What a load of ********. In that case why do you not embrace modern low
maintenance vehicles with low fuel consumption and low total cost of
ownership?




> Another critical difference is cost of petroleum products - much higher in
> Europe.
> In the United States, the cost for a do-it-yourselfer to change their oil
> on
> a
> typical non-synthetic oil engine totals about $8-10, this includes the oil
> and filter
> cost. There is therefore very little cost incentive to extend oil
> changes.
>

Get a grip! Just above you stated that many Americans could not afford to
service their cars, yet they service them every 3000 miles, yet Europeans
who can afford it service much less often.
Your thought processes need serious reappraisal.

Huw