freon

I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
with no such requirement.

Questions:
Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?

How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
will not work with the newer valves.

What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
product to recharge the system.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


Tony

In article >,
tom > wrote:

> I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.

No problem. The EPA supplies a whole list of acceptable
alternative refrigerants at;
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/snap/ref.../macssubs.html

> Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
> license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
> with no such requirement.

Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
laws in your state.

> Questions:
> Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?

There are restrictions on -any- substance introduced into a
mobile (automotive for highway use) air conditioning system.
Fill your AC system with Lime flavored Jello, it -still- falls
under the EPA rules, no exceptions.

> How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
> the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
> I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
> will not work with the newer valves.

All substitute refrigerants are required to use individually
unique service fittings, this helps eliminate cross contamination
during recovery and recycling. Had the rules been more
diligently followed over the last 15 years, the equipment
requirements for the people and businesses who legitimately
service automotive AC systems would be a whole lot less and the
costs to the consumer a whole lot lower.

> What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
> the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
> thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
> use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
> product to recharge the system.

I've never seen a leak detector, R-134a type or any other used to
recharge a system.
I think it's entirely reasonable to contact the refrigerant
manufacturers listed in the EPA SNAP list to see if they have
available adaptors to convert your R-12 manifold and gauge set to
use with their product.
If you live in the United States, be advised, it is illegal to
use hydrocarbon based refrigerants such as Envirosafe (ES-12a) in
any mobile air conditioning system.

> Any suggestions?

Please don't contribute to making things worse than they already
are.

aarcuda69062 wrote:

> In article >,
> tom > wrote:

>>...Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
>>license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
>>with no such requirement.
>
>
> Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
> require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
> laws in your state.

Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.
Anyone can walk into any auto parts store and buy it just like they
would an oil filter. I assumed it was that way in most other U.S.
states. Apparently not? (or am I mis-reading something said earlier?)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

In article >,
Bill Putney > wrote:

> > Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
> > require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
> > laws in your state.
>
> Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
> my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.

Entirely possible.
In Wisconsin and I suspect a few other states with draconian laws
one needs a state license in order to purchase R-134a or R-12.
The selling vendor (NAPA CarQuest, etc) has to have a copy of the
license on file in case the state checks.
I can go to Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and buy R134a right off
the shelf at Walmart.
The Wisconsin license amounts to nothing more than another tax on
the business owner.

> Anyone can walk into any auto parts store and buy it just like they
> would an oil filter. I assumed it was that way in most other U.S.
> states.

It is. But since there are exceptions, the OP is best served
making himself familiar with whatever requirements there are in
-his- state.

> Apparently not? (or am I mis-reading something said earlier?)

I remember back when R-12, R-22 and R-134a were advertised in the
circulars in the Sunday paper, there were a few states listed as
"sales are restricted," Wisconsin and (IIRC) Florida were at
least two, and since Kalifornia never saw a repressive law it
didn't like, it is entirely possible that they also require a
license.

Hell I am in Ontario Canada and we cannot buy it here, yet I can cross
the border into Niagara Falls New York and buy it and even tell them
at customs I have it and they don't give me a problem.

Worst part about it all is that I can walk into any electronics supply
house and buy it and many places like staples still sell it.

Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it
doesn't say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances
are its 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack,
though they might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze
spray, again its 134a.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:01:14 -0400, Bill Putney >
wrote:

>aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> tom > wrote:
>
>>>...Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
>>>license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
>>>with no such requirement.
>>
>>
>> Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
>> require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
>> laws in your state.
>
>Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
>my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.
>Anyone can walk into any auto parts store and buy it just like they
>would an oil filter. I assumed it was that way in most other U.S.
>states. Apparently not? (or am I mis-reading something said earlier?)
>
>Bill Putney
>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>adddress with the letter 'x')

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Len G wrote:

> Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it doesn't
> say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances are its
> 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack, though they
> might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze spray, again
> its 134a.

The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, but doing as you implicitly
suggest and charging it into an A/C system is foolhardy. Why? Because it's
not even close to being pure or dry. It doesn't have to be, for dusting
the Oreo crumbs out of your keyboard. It DOES have to be, for use in an
A/C system. Charging an A/C system with wet/impure refrigerant is a
sure-fire recipe for expensive system damage. After the filter-dryer is
saturated and can sequester no more moisture -- which is not at all
difficult; the dryer is not meant to handle more than tiny amounts of
residual moisture -- the remaining moisture reacts with the refrigerant at
high temperatures to form aggressive Hydrofluoric acid, which eats thin
aluminum voraciously (evaporator, condenser). Moisture also freezes in
TXVs and orifice tubes, causing a clog that reduces system performance to
near zero and sends head pressure skyrocketing. And finally, all the
impurities in duster-grade gas further reduce system performance as
noncondensibles.

Putting duster-grade R134a in an A/C system is *almost* as poor an idea as
charging an A/C system with camping fuel, for the same (wet/impure)
reason. The camping fuel idea is somewhat more knotheaded, for reasons
that have already been done to death in this forum.

DS (waiting for those two idiots to make vague and unsupported assertions)

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

>
> The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, ...

It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from those
'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a propellant. From
what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a license
but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy & use.

"tom" > wrote in message
...
>I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
> Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
> license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
> with no such requirement.
>
> Questions:
> Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?
>
> How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
> the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
> I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
> will not work with the newer valves.
>
> What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
> the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
> thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
> use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
> product to recharge the system.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tony

Tony,

There is a direct replacement for R12 (Freeze 12)however you still need a
license and be auto AC certified to work on the systems (Federal Law). You
still need to replace the dryer/accumulator, reclaimed the R12 and draw a
500 micron vacuum to get everything out, you do not have to change the AC
compressor. Then the system must be recharged with the correct amount along
with manufacturers amount of compressor oil. I am licensed in both
automotive and universal I used Freeze 12 on several older R12 systems with
good results. R12 is running (if you can find it) at $190.00 per 16oz. A
decent price for the job is around $250.00 on the east coast for all parts
and labor.
--
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:

> There is a direct replacement for R12 (Freeze 12)however you still need a
> license and be auto AC certified to work on the systems (Federal Law).

Wrong. There is NO SUCH THING as legal "drop in" for R12.

Some other refrigerants or refrigerant blends are chemically and
physically directly compatible with R12 systems, but legally, Federally,
there is NO SUCH THING as a "drop in". Disregarding this law is very
shortsighted, for it screws up the supply of recycled R12 for everyone.
Every source of information on the topic -- with the possible exception of
shady sellers of non-approved refrigerants -- clearly spells this out.
EPA, MACS, IMACA, etc. A 15-second Google search will clearly demonstrate
it.

> R12 is running (if you can find it) at $190.00 per 16oz.

Bull****.

Telling alarmist lies helps nobody unless you're trying to sell something,
in which case it only helps you. R12 is not hard to find, and is running
at between $400 and $450 for a 30-pound cylinder, which translates to $13
to $15 per pound...that is around one-fifteenth of the "$190 per 16oz" you
claim.

Don't believe me? Head over to eBay and see for yourself.

To correct your ignorance and you may want to click on the link go to the
technical link and read the EPA authorization on a direct replacement.

I was not talking about the stuff on EBAY most of it is crap and contains
contaminates along with being illegally imported from Mexico where it is
still made. If you consider EBAY as your guide buyer beware.

http://www.freeze12.com/


I am licensed and certified Universal and Automotive I show you mine if you
show mw yours.
--
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply
"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:
>
>> There is a direct replacement for R12 (Freeze 12)however you still need
>> a
>> license and be auto AC certified to work on the systems (Federal Law).
>
> Wrong. There is NO SUCH THING as legal "drop in" for R12.
>
> Some other refrigerants or refrigerant blends are chemically and
> physically directly compatible with R12 systems, but legally, Federally,
> there is NO SUCH THING as a "drop in". Disregarding this law is very
> shortsighted, for it screws up the supply of recycled R12 for everyone.
> Every source of information on the topic -- with the possible exception of
> shady sellers of non-approved refrigerants -- clearly spells this out.
> EPA, MACS, IMACA, etc. A 15-second Google search will clearly demonstrate
> it.
>
>> R12 is running (if you can find it) at $190.00 per 16oz.
>
> Bull****.
>
> Telling alarmist lies helps nobody unless you're trying to sell something,
> in which case it only helps you. R12 is not hard to find, and is running
> at between $400 and $450 for a 30-pound cylinder, which translates to $13
> to $15 per pound...that is around one-fifteenth of the "$190 per 16oz" you
> claim.
>
> Don't believe me? Head over to eBay and see for yourself.
>