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Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 1st 05, 04:37 PM
Jim Yanik
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Randolph > wrote in :

>
> "TeGGeR®" wrote:
>>
>> Got a URL or a pic? I'd like to add that diode.
>>
>> The pics I found showed resistors, but no diodes.

>
> I have looked long and hard at the photos of the ignitor. The darlington
> device is definitely from STM (http:/www.stm.com). The part number is
> hard to decipher, but I am quite certain the first line of the part
> number is BUxy41. I can't for the life of me see if "x" is actually a
> character or just picture noise. The "y" looks like an "8" or a "9". The
> second line of the part number almost certainly is "ZT". This is
> consistent with "BU941ZT", which is an actual STM part number with a
> package type like the one in the ignitor photo. The description is "HIGH
> VOLTAGE IGNITION COIL DRIVER NPN POWER TRANSISTOR". See
> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/ascii/docs/5288.htm for details. The
> data sheet is at http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/5288.pdf. The
> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.


The diode is INTERNAL to the transistor package.
Probably on the same substrate as the xstr.
>
> The IC in the photo looks like it has part number U2226B, and a good
> guess is that the TFK in the first line stand for Telefunken, a German
> semiconductor manufacturer later renamed TEMIC and eventually bought by
> Vishay. I have not found any data sheet for the U2226B, but I believe it
> is an opto-coupler.
>


I found ICs that were specifically designed for ignition control and
driving the Darlingtons,but none with the same pin count of the IC
pictured,nor any similarity to its part number.
I do not believe it's an optocoupler,but a full control IC.Probably with
circuitry to square up(shape) the drive pulse,and provide enough drive
current,and IIRC,the ICs monitored and regulated coil current.(that would
enable faster switching)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #22  
Old June 2nd 05, 04:31 AM
TeGGeR®
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Randolph > wrote in :

> The
> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.



So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.

Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through the
transistor. I found this page:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/thegame.html

It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current goes
through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams show the
current going the wrong way through the transistor.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
  #23  
Old June 2nd 05, 04:36 AM
TeGGeR®
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wrote in :

> In rec.autos.makers.honda jim beam > wrote:
>> Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>> Here are oscilloscope traces of an ignition coil with and without a
>>> capacitor:
>>>
>>>
http://www.pixelmemory.us/Photos/Nerd/flyback/
>
>> awesome! that one without capacitor is /real/ ugly...

>
> It reminds me of my Mazda rotary with points.




I had a '74 RX-4 Coupe!


> I could see the dwell
> begin to take up too much time as the RPM got higher.
>



You guys...I swear...

If the subject gets any more high-flown, it's gonna head for outer space.

This is excellent info. Now I've got to make another page: More detail for
the Electronics Whiz.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
  #24  
Old June 2nd 05, 02:47 PM
Jim Yanik
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"TeGGeR®" > wrote in
:

> Randolph > wrote in
> :
>
>> The
>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.

>
>
> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>
> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
> the transistor. I found this page:
> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...tion/thegame.h
> tml
>
> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
>
>


There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both base and
collector currents.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
  #25  
Old June 2nd 05, 08:22 PM
TeGGeR®
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Jim Yanik .> wrote in
:

> "TeGGeR®" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Randolph > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> The
>>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.

>>
>>
>> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>>
>> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
>> the transistor. I found this page:
>> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame.
>> h tml
>>
>> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
>> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
>> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>>
>>

>
> There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
> Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
> base and collector currents.
>



I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.

I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the positive to
negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons themselves go in the
OTHER direction.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors correctly
depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
  #26  
Old June 2nd 05, 11:51 PM
Jim Yanik
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"TeGGeR®" > wrote in
:

> Jim Yanik .> wrote in
> :
>
>> "TeGGeR®" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Randolph > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> The
>>>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
>>>
>>>
>>> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
>>>
>>> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
>>> the transistor. I found this page:
>>> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame
>>> . h tml
>>>
>>> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
>>> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
>>> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>
>> There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
>> Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
>> base and collector currents.
>>

>
>
> I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.
>
> I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the
> positive to negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons
> themselves go in the OTHER direction.
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
> On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors
> correctly depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.
>


The electrons are what's doing the moving,and they flow from neg to pos.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
  #27  
Old June 3rd 05, 02:11 AM
TeGGeR®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jim Yanik .> wrote in
:


>>

>
> The electrons are what's doing the moving,and they flow from neg to pos.
>



The electrons flow from POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE. The electrons go from where
they are (-) to where they're not: The "holes" (+).
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/forward.html

It's the actual everyday signal that's commonly perceived to go from
negative to positive.

But we have THREE paths in a transistor ("transfer resistor"). For a non-
techie, this is non-intuitive. I do not get how TWO terminals can have
THREE paths.

Please try to understand that I am not trying to be difficult, but that
this is not at all making sense to me.

I am hoping that someone, somewhere, will post with an explanation that
makes sense to my mind. In my professional life I have taught and trained
many, many individuals, and most have had certain things that just would
not "click" until the information was presented a certain way. I am seeking
that way, and I will persist until I find it. This is driving me crazy.

This graphic:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat.../amplification
..html
(all on one line; copy-and-paste as necessary)
shows the signal path from base electrode to collector.

This one:
http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat.../pointsymbol.h
tml
(again, all on one line)
appears to show the path from emitter to collector.

I do not get this and I am trying madly to understand. Graham W would be
able to correct me in an instant. He has been the most persnicketly
critical observer and the most productive from my point of view. Graham,
where aaaaaare you?...

Graham was the ONLY one to suggest alterations to the Main Relay function
graphics. Graham was the ONLY one to inform me of certain HTML errors, the
correction of which make it easier for browsers to display the intended
information.

Ah, but wait. I just thought of something: alt.electronics. Back soon...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
  #28  
Old June 3rd 05, 02:22 AM
TeGGeR®
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"TeGGeR®" > wrote in
:


> Ah, but wait. I just thought of something: alt.electronics. Back
> soon...
>



Just checked message counts.
sci.electronics.misc
sci.electronics.repair
and
alt.home.repair
seem better choices, in case anyone wants to follow along...

I'm hoping to elicit responses from somebody like Sam Goldwasser.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
  #29  
Old June 3rd 05, 02:35 AM
Michael Pardee
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"TeGGeR®" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Yanik .> wrote in
> :
> The electrons flow from POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE. The electrons go from where
> they are (-) to where they're not: The "holes" (+).
> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...n/forward.html
>

There is a big part of the confusion - electrons flow from [-] to [+].

The entire "hole" thing never helped me, either. I got a lot farther when I
started thinking of where the "positives" flowed, because both vacuum tubes
(which were still common when I was learning electronics) and NPN
transistors (which are the most common now but least common originally, both
for technical reasons) use negative ground. Trying to follow electron flow
distorts the idea of the ground, while thinking of "positives" flowing from
the power supply to ground worked great. (Also the "positives" flow in the
direction of the arrow on the emitter.)

For NPN transistors, here is the simple view. The emitter is grounded and
the collector has positive voltage applied to it. The transistor doesn't
conduct because the collector-base junction is reverse biased. Now positive
voltage is applied to the base. Below about 0.7 volts on the base nothing
much happens. As 0.7 volts is approached the base-emitter junction starts
drawing current, just like any other ordinary silicon diode. The
base-emitter current causes tens to hundreds of times that much current to
flow from the collector to emitter. As the base voltage rises to about 0.8
or 0.9 volts, the base-emitter current is so high that the collector current
can't go any higher - the voltage at the collector has dropped to only
0.1-0.2 volts, and the entire supply voltage (like the 12V battery) is
across whatever load is between the power supply and the collector. In the
ignition circuit, the collector has grounded the primary of the coil. This
condition is called "saturation" because increasing the base current doesn't
do anything to the collector any more.

It is important in switching circuits like the ignition to saturate the
transistor. If the collector voltage doesn't go very near ground, the
transistor has to dissipate the current times whatever voltage is left. If
the voltage is only twice the saturation voltage (say, 0.3 instead of 0.15)
the transistor has to dissipate twice the power.

Mike


  #30  
Old June 3rd 05, 06:24 AM
Kevin McMurtrie
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In article >,
"TeGGeR®" > wrote:

> Jim Yanik .> wrote in
> :
>
> > "TeGGeR®" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> >> Randolph > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >>> The
> >>> data sheet shows the diode between emitter and collector.
> >>
> >>
> >> So then it wouldn't make much sense to try and show it.
> >>
> >> Randolph, I'm having trouble understanding the current path through
> >> the transistor. I found this page:
> >> http://nobelprize.org/physics/educat...nction/thegame.
> >> h tml
> >>
> >> It helps me understand more, but I don't get which way the current
> >> goes through the base electrode. I have a suspicion that my diagrams
> >> show the current going the wrong way through the transistor.
> >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >
> > There's two current paths;the B-E path and the C-E path(main path).
> > Current flows the opposite direction of the emitter arrow,for both
> > base and collector currents.
> >

>
>
> I'm having trouble getting my mind around this.
>
> I am aware that "flow" is _commonly_ considered to be from the positive to
> negative terminals of the battery, but the electrons themselves go in the
> OTHER direction.


Most materials have an electron flow, which goes from negative to
positive. I've heard that some materials can have a proton flow. Both
may exist in a vacuum.

Current flow arrows on diagrams go from positive to negative.

Bipolar transistors are current amplifiers. When a current flows
through the base-emitter diode junction, a stronger current is allowed
to flow from the collector to the emitter. The C-E junction is .2 to .4
volts when the B-E junction is saturated (~.65 V). The current gain for
a power transistor is usually 10 to 100. Darlington pairs have that
gain squared. Gains are not at all consistent so they're usually
specified as a range.

MOSFETs are tiny voltage controlled amplifiers. Absolutely zero static
current is required to turn them on or off; just the capacitance
current. Because of their infinite current gain, millions may be
paralleled on a single chip to satisfy any current load. Their voltage
gain is very low - a typical gate threshold voltage is 4V and a typical
gate saturation voltage is 10V. There's no voltage drop between the
source and drain, only resistance. High voltage capability makes each
MOSFET junction larger and dramatically increases resistance.

IGBTs are similar to bipolar transistors but with an insulated gate like
a MOSFET. They have the high voltage capacity of bipolars but need no
driving current like a MOSFET. They're very slow so they're usually
limited to controlling industrial motors. (Honda hybrid cars use them
for their motors.)


> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...adigniter.html
> On these two pages, is the current flow through the transistors correctly
> depicted? Nobody has answered that question yet.

 




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