134a Refrigerant

Nathan W. Collier wrote:
> "jeff" > wrote in message
> news:9SQBe.9$N91.5@trnddc08...
>>No Nate, you were simply being a pedantic little prick attempting to
>>deflect the core of the discussion with a bit of minutia.
>
> _wrong_. if youre going to step into my industry and try to explain
> something to me youd better do your homework first. your statement was
> _wrong_.
I didn't know one had to be an AC/HVAC/Refrigeration tech to understand
chemistry.
>
>>You had made the statement that CFCs were mixtures.
>
> show me.

Happy to help:
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From: "Nathan W. Collier" >
Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys
Subject: 134a Refrigerant
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:18:16 -0600
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"Stephen Cowell" > wrote in message
. ..

> Who said anything about adding stuff? All we were talking
> about was mixing!

yeah no ****! refrigerant is a compound, a MIXTURE and when you add up
all the components they are heavier than the individual components.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

did I see MIXTURE???
>
>>I am aware that Freon is a registered trademark, but it has become so
>>generic that to the common man if you were to use the word they instantly
>>know what you are talking about.
>
> exactly....the "common man" typically doesnt know **** about refrigeration
> or refrigerants.

Do they recognize the word "Freon" and understand what you are referring
to? If so, then the term was sufficient.

> if you want to talk the talk like the big man who knows
> something about either youd better step up and learn what youre talking
> about.
Likewise, if you want to be the big man and discuss science there is a
lot of terminology and concepts you have to get straight.
>_nobody_ within the industry uses the term "freon" because it is a
> brand name. "refrigerant" is both the proper terminoloy _and_ the commonly
> used reference by those who know what theyre talking about. only those
> ignorant to the industry would use the word "freon" and only the foolish
> would defend it.

Since you wanted to quibble a term which is very much in the common
vernacular, in subsequent posts I switched to Dichlordiflouromethane. I
even drew you a picture so we could agree on common terms. Regardless,
it is still a compound, and can in no way be characterized as a
"mixture". Also, not all compounds are heavier/denser/have a higher
specific gravity/ than their constituent elements, so you are wrong on
two accounts.

>>An excellent example of this is to search E-Bay (tm) for Freon.
>
> lol well there it is.....ebay = biblical credibility! :-)

No, just a demonstration that reasonable people recognize freon-12 as a
specific entity, and by in-large use the term generically.

>
> oh wait im sorry, you liberals have no use for such foolishness.
>
Yee-Ha, I got a "liberal lame"! apparently anyone who thinks you are a
dumbass must be a <spit> liberal...

So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC," why
is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy?

"refrigerant" is both the proper terminoloy _and_ the commonly
> used reference by those who know what theyre talking about. only those
> ignorant to the industry would use the word "freon" and only the foolish
> would defend it.
>
>
>> An excellent example of this is to search E-Bay (tm) for Freon.
>
> lol well there it is.....ebay = biblical credibility! :-)
>
> oh wait im sorry, you liberals have no use for such foolishness.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://InlineDiesel.com
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
>

"jeff" > wrote in message
news:m1WBe.65$N91.52@trnddc08...
> I didn't know one had to be an AC/HVAC/Refrigeration tech to understand
> chemistry.

i didnt call you on the chemistry. i called you on the terminology. stay
on track.


>> yeah no ****! refrigerant is a compound, a MIXTURE and when you add up
> all the components they are heavier than the individual components.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> did I see MIXTURE???

to clarify...look right before that where i said it is a compound. mixture
was added as further explanation but i clearly stated "refrigerant is a
compound".


> Do they recognize the word "Freon" and understand what you are referring
> to? If so, then the term was sufficient.

only to the ignorant.


> not all compounds are heavier/denser/have a higher specific gravity/ than
> their constituent elements, so you are wrong on two accounts.

show me where i ever said ALL compounds were heavier. im referencing
refrigerants.


> No, just a demonstration that reasonable people recognize freon-12 as a
> specific entity, and by in-large use the term generically.

and many people recognize a "gat" as a gun....doesnt make it proper.


> apparently anyone who thinks you are a dumbass must be a <spit> liberal...

nope. just you and your liberal buddy stephen. :-)


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com

"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
...
> So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC,"

HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning. HVAC/R = Heating Ventilation
Air Conditioning/Refrigeration

> why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy?

the basic function of refrigerant is the same both in refrigeration and air
conditioning. the refrigerant picks up heat as it evaporates and releases
it elsewhere when it condenses. this is why a medium temp refrigerant is
still a refrigerant, its serving the same basic function. the industry
however, is entirely different. low temp applications require far more
critical design, componentry, and especially training. you take a guy with
20 years hvac experience and put him into a refrigeration situation and
virtually _nothing_ he's learned over the last 20 years will help him. the
industries are similar, yet entirely different.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com

Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C units?
Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat
exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any
experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed
the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line,
uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the
sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper
than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try
to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's
mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to
spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in....

"Nathan W. Collier" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
> ...
>> So as you asserted that "refrigeration" has nothing to do with "HVAC,"
>
> HVAC = Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning. HVAC/R = Heating Ventilation
> Air Conditioning/Refrigeration
>
>> why is "refrigerant" proper terminology for the industy?
>
> the basic function of refrigerant is the same both in refrigeration and
> air conditioning. the refrigerant picks up heat as it evaporates and
> releases it elsewhere when it condenses. this is why a medium temp
> refrigerant is still a refrigerant, its serving the same basic function.
> the industry however, is entirely different. low temp applications
> require far more critical design, componentry, and especially training.
> you take a guy with 20 years hvac experience and put him into a
> refrigeration situation and virtually _nothing_ he's learned over the last
> 20 years will help him. the industries are similar, yet entirely
> different.
>
> --
> Nathan W. Collier
> http://InlineDiesel.com
> http://7SlotGrille.com
> http://UtilityOffRoad.com
> http://BighornRefrigeration.com
>

"Matt Macchiarolo" wrote in message: "Just curious, are you qualified to
work on old York commercial A/C units?
Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat
exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any
experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed
the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line,
uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the
sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper
than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try
to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's
mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to
spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in...."

What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the
refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water tower
to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the
tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must add
chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are you
will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be beneficial
due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better Seer
rating and less maintenance.

I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that
are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available for
some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring diagrams
do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't
replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed.

We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a contract
to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the plant.
It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350
thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a
million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production occurs
when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but they
just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working.

The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there
but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his
knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a
vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home
by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes every
unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and
outside.

Sarge

"Matt Macchiarolo" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious, are you qualified to work on old York commercial A/C units?

yes. the only area i dont consider myself qualified on yet is ground
source/geo thermal. i have field experience and can work through most
issues but have no formal training on them yet. ill be in the next course
offered by water furnace.


> Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat
> exchanger

a water cooled condensor. these days its more common in refrigeration
applications but i still see a lot of it in upper end homes (people who dont
want to hear a fan running and can afford to buy the water). while ground
source is more efficient, many dont have the yard for the loops so they run
water cooled.


> there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any experience on
> them.

thats what i love about this industry. if you apply yourself to learn you
can make a great honest living.


> our systems take water from the city line, uses it for the heat transfer
> from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the sewer.

really not uncommon, although i rarely see it anymore in hvac applications.


--
Nathan W. Collier
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com

"Sarge" > wrote in message
...

> We have commercial AC units that
> are still running since they were put in 1954.

some of those older units are amazing. i bet theyre still running when
equipment installed today is long since dead.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com

Hi Sarge,
We have swap coolers out here in our deserts, but I can't imagine
how water could be used to cool a refrigerant, how it could be more
efficient than just a regular condenser cooled by air being blown
through it. Would it still use something like freon to take the heat out
of the building?
God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
http://www.billhughes.com/

Sarge wrote:
>
> "Matt Macchiarolo" wrote in message: "Just curious, are you qualified to
> work on old York commercial A/C units?
> Our building has these 40-year old units that use water as a heat
> exchanger...there is only one guy I know who is old enough to have any
> experience on them. We tried another repair company and they just screwed
> the whole thing up. right now our systems take water from the city line,
> uses it for the heat transfer from the refrigerant, then dumps in into the
> sewer. As expensive as our water bills are in the summer, it' still cheaper
> than replacing the units for a 24,000 squ ft building...we still might try
> to install a closed-loop water system with radiators on the roof but that's
> mucho dinero as well, and with the economy in MI the way it is we have to
> spend every spare penny on promotion to get the customers in...."
>
> What you describing is a unit that uses the water to condense the
> refrigerant. Many commercial units of that size used a cooling water tower
> to recycle the water back into the system. Water was only made up to the
> tower as it evaporated. Other cost was associated with this. You must add
> chemicals to the tower to maintain the algae levels and conductivity are you
> will have a problem. Despite the cost of replacement, it may be beneficial
> due to running more economical system over a given time period. Better Seer
> rating and less maintenance.
>
> I worked at a large industrial complex. We have commercial AC units that
> are still running since they were put in 1954. Parts are not available for
> some. They have been modified by the on site HVAC man. The wiring diagrams
> do not mean crap because he rewired them to keep them running. They won't
> replace the unit unless it cannot be fixed.
>
> We also have large chillers on the plant. York Refrigeration has a contract
> to repair these. Most use are newer then the AC units we have on the plant.
> It comes down to simple economics. Replace a chiller that may cost 350
> thousand dollars because it is better then having down time and loosing a
> million dollars a day in lost production. However no lose production occurs
> when a HVAC unit goes out. Office workers suffer due to the no AC but they
> just moved their meetings to a building where the AC is working.
>
> The HVAC repair company on the plant has switch 5 times since I been there
> but they all hire the guy that has been working on the units due to his
> knowledge of the equipment. He makes his on hours and they give him a
> vehicle to come back and forth to work in. He is at work at 3 AM and home
> by 1 AM Monday through Thursday. This man is unbelievable. He takes every
> unit apart once a year and cleans the unit and waxes both inside and
> outside.
>
> Sarge

"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" > wrote in message
...
> We have swap coolers out here in our deserts,

swamp coolers suck in most applications. totally different principle from a
water cooled condensor.


> but I can't imagine
> how water could be used to cool a refrigerant, how it could be more
> efficient than just a regular condenser cooled by air being blown
> through it.

take a red hot piece of steel and blow a fan over it. now take a red hot
piece of steel and dunk it under water. which cools it faster? :-) water
cooled condensors run hot refrigerant through a tube that is inside another
tube running water through it. its very effiicient, effective, and quiet.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://InlineDiesel.com
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com
http://BighornRefrigeration.com