So what's wrong with the Airhog filters? was: Airhog filters almost free after Fram's rebate

N8N wrote:
> John S. wrote:
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > John S. wrote:
> > > > Steve wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>John S. wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>I was referring to quality filters including those from the car
> > > >>>manufacturer.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >><eyeroll> here we go again.... still believe that car manufacturers also
> > > >>build air and oil filters, do you?
> > > >>
> > > >>For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > > >>Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > > >>are truly of unknown origin in many cases. You can assume that they meet
> > > >>the minimum specifications for the part, but that's all. QC/QA can be
> > > >>all over the map.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, good there is a waxing moon tonight and the troll has come out of
> > > > hiding. Once again he will tell us of his extensive inside knowlege
> > > > anout the design, contracting and purchasing decisions made by the
> > > > major auto makers.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's a well known fact that OEM filters for various makes are obviously
> > > relabeled product of the major aftermarket mfgrs.
> >
> > > Sometimes Dana (Wix)
> > > sometimes Champion Labs, sometimes Fram.
> >
> > Why should that be any surprise...good grief. Just as many other other
> > automotive components come from specialist companies.
>
> It shouldn't be a surprise at all.
>
> >
> > > There's little "tells" in the
> > > construction of the filter that make this evident.
> >
> > What in heavens sake is a tell. And please describe the little
> > fellows.
> >
>
> You know, things that make the filter unique from others on the market,
> like the number/size/shape of the holes in the baseplate, the form of
> the crimp, the construction of the bypass or anti-drainback valves (if
> present,) the construction of the filter media (and in the case of one
> mfgr. the presence of a string around the media) - things like that.
>
> > > Perhaps *you* should
> > > look into the subject before firing off authoritative-sounding,
> > > condescending messages.
> >
> > I was responding to a snide comment from a troll.
> >
>
> I didn't see it as snide at all, nor did I see it as a troll.
>
> > >
> > > and just before you scream "cite!" as I know you will, here ya go...
> > >
> > > http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oil...y.html#mc-fl1a
> >
> > That car manufacturers depend on filter manufacturers for their
> > products comes as no great surprise to me and hopefully it is not to
> > you either. However I think that it is completely incorrect to assume
> > as steve-the-troll does that car manufacturers blindly accept the
> > least-cost product with no mind given to standards of filtration,
> > quality, etc.
>
> When they choose Fram, that is the only logical conclusion, although
> certainly they have to meet the manufacturer's minimum standards for
> quality and filtration. I think Steve's point was that the average
> consumer may not wish to merely meet the manufacturer's standards when
> there are likely aftermarket products available that will exceed them
> (for a similar price.)


No Steve said this:
For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
are truly of unknown origin in many cases.

And my response would be unless you have all of the information about
the performance of a group of filters (or any automotive component)
then you do not know whether one filter with a brand name on it willl
perform any better or worse than a filter with a car manufacturers
brand name on the outside.

This discussion heads in the same direction every time it comes up.
Some of us are in love with a particular brand and when pressed to say
why the response is along the line of "It's a better filter" or "I've
always used brand XXX and it has never let me down", but there is no
evidence provided to support such a statement. It's little more than
an anecdote trading exercise.

> Which brings us full circle to the original
> poster's question regarding using a particular aftermarket air filter.
> Now that particular filter in my opinion may not be the best choice for
> regular on-road use, but there may very well be aftermarket filters
> available that ARE better choices than an OEM-branded part, with little
> or no cost penalty.
>
> You certainly can't say with a straight face that you'd rather have the
> oil that comes out of the 55-gallon drum at a dealership than some
> Mobil One or Redline, can you? But the oil in the 55-gallon drum meets
> the manufacturer's specifications... (well, usually. There have been
> exceptions...)

I could not imagine why anyone would want to get into vetting the
sources for components used on a car. Neither you nor steve has access
to information to show that the filters provided by GM, Volvo,
Mercedes, etc., is any better or worse than an over the shelf unit.
Unless of course you can come up with independent laboratory tests of
the performance of those filters that shows something to the contrary.
That website fallls way short of providing such information.


>
> >
> > The website presents an interesting home project, but in terms of this
> > discussion it adds very little.
> >
>
> It certainly lends credence to Steve's assertion.

It is little more than a long anecdote about someone who cut a bunch of
filters apart with NO information about how the filters perform in the
real world.

>
> nate

John S. wrote:
> N8N wrote:
> > John S. wrote:
> > > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > > John S. wrote:
> > > > > Steve wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>John S. wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I was referring to quality filters including those from the car
> > > > >>>manufacturer.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >><eyeroll> here we go again.... still believe that car manufacturers also
> > > > >>build air and oil filters, do you?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > > > >>Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > > > >>are truly of unknown origin in many cases. You can assume that they meet
> > > > >>the minimum specifications for the part, but that's all. QC/QA can be
> > > > >>all over the map.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, good there is a waxing moon tonight and the troll has come out of
> > > > > hiding. Once again he will tell us of his extensive inside knowlege
> > > > > anout the design, contracting and purchasing decisions made by the
> > > > > major auto makers.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It's a well known fact that OEM filters for various makes are obviously
> > > > relabeled product of the major aftermarket mfgrs.
> > >
> > > > Sometimes Dana (Wix)
> > > > sometimes Champion Labs, sometimes Fram.
> > >
> > > Why should that be any surprise...good grief. Just as many other other
> > > automotive components come from specialist companies.
> >
> > It shouldn't be a surprise at all.
> >
> > >
> > > > There's little "tells" in the
> > > > construction of the filter that make this evident.
> > >
> > > What in heavens sake is a tell. And please describe the little
> > > fellows.
> > >
> >
> > You know, things that make the filter unique from others on the market,
> > like the number/size/shape of the holes in the baseplate, the form of
> > the crimp, the construction of the bypass or anti-drainback valves (if
> > present,) the construction of the filter media (and in the case of one
> > mfgr. the presence of a string around the media) - things like that.
> >
> > > > Perhaps *you* should
> > > > look into the subject before firing off authoritative-sounding,
> > > > condescending messages.
> > >
> > > I was responding to a snide comment from a troll.
> > >
> >
> > I didn't see it as snide at all, nor did I see it as a troll.
> >
> > > >
> > > > and just before you scream "cite!" as I know you will, here ya go...
> > > >
> > > > http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oil...y.html#mc-fl1a
> > >
> > > That car manufacturers depend on filter manufacturers for their
> > > products comes as no great surprise to me and hopefully it is not to
> > > you either. However I think that it is completely incorrect to assume
> > > as steve-the-troll does that car manufacturers blindly accept the
> > > least-cost product with no mind given to standards of filtration,
> > > quality, etc.
> >
> > When they choose Fram, that is the only logical conclusion, although
> > certainly they have to meet the manufacturer's minimum standards for
> > quality and filtration. I think Steve's point was that the average
> > consumer may not wish to merely meet the manufacturer's standards when
> > there are likely aftermarket products available that will exceed them
> > (for a similar price.)
>
>
> No Steve said this:
> For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> are truly of unknown origin in many cases.
>
> And my response would be unless you have all of the information about
> the performance of a group of filters (or any automotive component)
> then you do not know whether one filter with a brand name on it willl
> perform any better or worse than a filter with a car manufacturers
> brand name on the outside.

That's correct, because you don't know what is in the
manufacturer-branded box until you open it. Which is what Steve said.

>
> This discussion heads in the same direction every time it comes up.
> Some of us are in love with a particular brand and when pressed to say
> why the response is along the line of "It's a better filter" or "I've
> always used brand XXX and it has never let me down", but there is no
> evidence provided to support such a statement. It's little more than
> an anecdote trading exercise.
>

The fact that you don't recognize the evidence or reasoning given
doesn't mean that it's not a valid criterion. In this instance I agree
with Steve that Wix and Purolator filters have been of apparent
consistent high quality for years, therefore buying a Wix or Purolator
branded filter is a reasonable assurance of quality. This is not
always true of manufacturer-branded filters, which have been in some
cases rebranded Frams. Whether or not you agree, there is good
evidence that Frams have not been consistently high quality products.

> > Which brings us full circle to the original
> > poster's question regarding using a particular aftermarket air filter.
> > Now that particular filter in my opinion may not be the best choice for
> > regular on-road use, but there may very well be aftermarket filters
> > available that ARE better choices than an OEM-branded part, with little
> > or no cost penalty.
> >
> > You certainly can't say with a straight face that you'd rather have the
> > oil that comes out of the 55-gallon drum at a dealership than some
> > Mobil One or Redline, can you? But the oil in the 55-gallon drum meets
> > the manufacturer's specifications... (well, usually. There have been
> > exceptions...)
>
> I could not imagine why anyone would want to get into vetting the
> sources for components used on a car.

I can't imagine why someone would make a statement like that. Of
course I always attempt to use the highest quality parts that I can on
my car, within some financial constraints.

> Neither you nor steve has access
> to information to show that the filters provided by GM, Volvo,
> Mercedes, etc., is any better or worse than an over the shelf unit.
> Unless of course you can come up with independent laboratory tests of
> the performance of those filters that shows something to the contrary.
> That website fallls way short of providing such information.
>

It does, however, show that OEM filters are not always made by the same
manufacturer, even for the same part number. I'd rather know what's in
the box I'm ordering.

>
> >
> > >
> > > The website presents an interesting home project, but in terms of this
> > > discussion it adds very little.
> > >
> >
> > It certainly lends credence to Steve's assertion.
>
> It is little more than a long anecdote about someone who cut a bunch of
> filters apart with NO information about how the filters perform in the
> real world.

Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in
the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on
any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original
subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with
faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose
them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find
that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past,
when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many
others.

nate

In article >, Steve wrote:

> manufacture, and c) consitency or "quality control" of manufacture. For
> many years Wix and Purolator have consistently been better than minimum,
> whereas going to the dealer will only assure you of MINIMUM performance.

And that minimum performance can actually be quite high. As I recall from
the various disections of filters, motorcraft filters appeared to be
Purolator and mopar wix.

In the torqueless wonder car I used pep-boys house brand filters because
for that engine, the filter was a rebranded purolator. Right down to the
stamping marks the tooled pieces were identical.

FYI: pep boys house brand oil filters appeared to come from various
mfgr's depending on application. Just my observation, make your own
before trying.

"N8N" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in
> the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on
> any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original
> subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with
> faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose
> them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find
> that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past,
> when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many
> others.
>
> nate

Admittedly, it tends to make on nervous. I have used Frams and have NEVER
had an incident. But, you really dont want and need an incident.

hls wrote:
> "N8N" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in
> > the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on
> > any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original
> > subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with
> > faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose
> > them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find
> > that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past,
> > when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many
> > others.
> >
> > nate
>
> Admittedly, it tends to make on nervous. I have used Frams and have NEVER
> had an incident. But, you really dont want and need an incident.

Agreed. I haven't had any of the catastrophic
can-blowing-apart-at-the-crimp failures of legend, but still, when one
brand has a bad ADBV and one has a good one, you buy the good one.

nate

N8N wrote:
> John S. wrote:
> > N8N wrote:
> > > John S. wrote:
> > > > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > > > John S. wrote:
> > > > > > Steve wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>John S. wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>I was referring to quality filters including those from the car
> > > > > >>>manufacturer.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >><eyeroll> here we go again.... still believe that car manufacturers also
> > > > > >>build air and oil filters, do you?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > > > > >>Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > > > > >>are truly of unknown origin in many cases. You can assume that they meet
> > > > > >>the minimum specifications for the part, but that's all. QC/QA can be
> > > > > >>all over the map.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, good there is a waxing moon tonight and the troll has come out of
> > > > > > hiding. Once again he will tell us of his extensive inside knowlege
> > > > > > anout the design, contracting and purchasing decisions made by the
> > > > > > major auto makers.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a well known fact that OEM filters for various makes are obviously
> > > > > relabeled product of the major aftermarket mfgrs.
> > > >
> > > > > Sometimes Dana (Wix)
> > > > > sometimes Champion Labs, sometimes Fram.
> > > >
> > > > Why should that be any surprise...good grief. Just as many other other
> > > > automotive components come from specialist companies.
> > >
> > > It shouldn't be a surprise at all.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > There's little "tells" in the
> > > > > construction of the filter that make this evident.
> > > >
> > > > What in heavens sake is a tell. And please describe the little
> > > > fellows.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You know, things that make the filter unique from others on the market,
> > > like the number/size/shape of the holes in the baseplate, the form of
> > > the crimp, the construction of the bypass or anti-drainback valves (if
> > > present,) the construction of the filter media (and in the case of one
> > > mfgr. the presence of a string around the media) - things like that.
> > >
> > > > > Perhaps *you* should
> > > > > look into the subject before firing off authoritative-sounding,
> > > > > condescending messages.
> > > >
> > > > I was responding to a snide comment from a troll.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I didn't see it as snide at all, nor did I see it as a troll.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > and just before you scream "cite!" as I know you will, here ya go...
> > > > >
> > > > > http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oil...y.html#mc-fl1a
> > > >
> > > > That car manufacturers depend on filter manufacturers for their
> > > > products comes as no great surprise to me and hopefully it is not to
> > > > you either. However I think that it is completely incorrect to assume
> > > > as steve-the-troll does that car manufacturers blindly accept the
> > > > least-cost product with no mind given to standards of filtration,
> > > > quality, etc.
> > >
> > > When they choose Fram, that is the only logical conclusion, although
> > > certainly they have to meet the manufacturer's minimum standards for
> > > quality and filtration. I think Steve's point was that the average
> > > consumer may not wish to merely meet the manufacturer's standards when
> > > there are likely aftermarket products available that will exceed them
> > > (for a similar price.)
> >
> >
> > No Steve said this:
> > For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > are truly of unknown origin in many cases.
> >
> > And my response would be unless you have all of the information about
> > the performance of a group of filters (or any automotive component)
> > then you do not know whether one filter with a brand name on it willl
> > perform any better or worse than a filter with a car manufacturers
> > brand name on the outside.
>
> That's correct, because you don't know what is in the
> manufacturer-branded box until you open it. Which is what Steve said.
>
> >
> > This discussion heads in the same direction every time it comes up.
> > Some of us are in love with a particular brand and when pressed to say
> > why the response is along the line of "It's a better filter" or "I've
> > always used brand XXX and it has never let me down", but there is no
> > evidence provided to support such a statement. It's little more than
> > an anecdote trading exercise.
> >
>
> The fact that you don't recognize the evidence or reasoning given
> doesn't mean that it's not a valid criterion. In this instance I agree
> with Steve that Wix and Purolator filters have been of apparent
> consistent high quality for years, therefore buying a Wix or Purolator
> branded filter is a reasonable assurance of quality. This is not
> always true of manufacturer-branded filters, which have been in some
> cases rebranded Frams. Whether or not you agree, there is good
> evidence that Frams have not been consistently high quality products.
>
> > > Which brings us full circle to the original
> > > poster's question regarding using a particular aftermarket air filter.
> > > Now that particular filter in my opinion may not be the best choice for
> > > regular on-road use, but there may very well be aftermarket filters
> > > available that ARE better choices than an OEM-branded part, with little
> > > or no cost penalty.
> > >
> > > You certainly can't say with a straight face that you'd rather have the
> > > oil that comes out of the 55-gallon drum at a dealership than some
> > > Mobil One or Redline, can you? But the oil in the 55-gallon drum meets
> > > the manufacturer's specifications... (well, usually. There have been
> > > exceptions...)
> >
> > I could not imagine why anyone would want to get into vetting the
> > sources for components used on a car.
>
> I can't imagine why someone would make a statement like that. Of
> course I always attempt to use the highest quality parts that I can on
> my car, within some financial constraints.
>
> > Neither you nor steve has access
> > to information to show that the filters provided by GM, Volvo,
> > Mercedes, etc., is any better or worse than an over the shelf unit.
> > Unless of course you can come up with independent laboratory tests of
> > the performance of those filters that shows something to the contrary.
> > That website fallls way short of providing such information.
> >
>
> It does, however, show that OEM filters are not always made by the same
> manufacturer, even for the same part number. I'd rather know what's in
> the box I'm ordering.
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The website presents an interesting home project, but in terms of this
> > > > discussion it adds very little.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It certainly lends credence to Steve's assertion.
> >
> > It is little more than a long anecdote about someone who cut a bunch of
> > filters apart with NO information about how the filters perform in the
> > real world.
>
> Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in
> the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on
> any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original
> subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with
> faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose
> them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find
> that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past,
> when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many
> others.
>
> nate

As I have said over and over all this group is doing is repeating
anecdotes with little solid evidence to base their proclamations of
product quality on. It's like the guy that puts a half-cup of oil
enhancer in with every oil change and proclaims that Motor Honey (or
some other product) Did It Again because my engine has been running for
xx years. If you are a true believer then I'm sure the lack of facts
won't get in the way.

John S. wrote:
> N8N wrote:
> > John S. wrote:
> > > N8N wrote:
> > > > John S. wrote:
> > > > > Nate Nagel wrote:
> > > > > > John S. wrote:
> > > > > > > Steve wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>John S. wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>I was referring to quality filters including those from the car
> > > > > > >>>manufacturer.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >><eyeroll> here we go again.... still believe that car manufacturers also
> > > > > > >>build air and oil filters, do you?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > > > > > >>Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > > > > > >>are truly of unknown origin in many cases. You can assume that they meet
> > > > > > >>the minimum specifications for the part, but that's all. QC/QA can be
> > > > > > >>all over the map.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, good there is a waxing moon tonight and the troll has come out of
> > > > > > > hiding. Once again he will tell us of his extensive inside knowlege
> > > > > > > anout the design, contracting and purchasing decisions made by the
> > > > > > > major auto makers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a well known fact that OEM filters for various makes are obviously
> > > > > > relabeled product of the major aftermarket mfgrs.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sometimes Dana (Wix)
> > > > > > sometimes Champion Labs, sometimes Fram.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why should that be any surprise...good grief. Just as many other other
> > > > > automotive components come from specialist companies.
> > > >
> > > > It shouldn't be a surprise at all.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > There's little "tells" in the
> > > > > > construction of the filter that make this evident.
> > > > >
> > > > > What in heavens sake is a tell. And please describe the little
> > > > > fellows.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You know, things that make the filter unique from others on the market,
> > > > like the number/size/shape of the holes in the baseplate, the form of
> > > > the crimp, the construction of the bypass or anti-drainback valves (if
> > > > present,) the construction of the filter media (and in the case of one
> > > > mfgr. the presence of a string around the media) - things like that.
> > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps *you* should
> > > > > > look into the subject before firing off authoritative-sounding,
> > > > > > condescending messages.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was responding to a snide comment from a troll.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I didn't see it as snide at all, nor did I see it as a troll.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and just before you scream "cite!" as I know you will, here ya go...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oil...y.html#mc-fl1a
> > > > >
> > > > > That car manufacturers depend on filter manufacturers for their
> > > > > products comes as no great surprise to me and hopefully it is not to
> > > > > you either. However I think that it is completely incorrect to assume
> > > > > as steve-the-troll does that car manufacturers blindly accept the
> > > > > least-cost product with no mind given to standards of filtration,
> > > > > quality, etc.
> > > >
> > > > When they choose Fram, that is the only logical conclusion, although
> > > > certainly they have to meet the manufacturer's minimum standards for
> > > > quality and filtration. I think Steve's point was that the average
> > > > consumer may not wish to merely meet the manufacturer's standards when
> > > > there are likely aftermarket products available that will exceed them
> > > > (for a similar price.)
> > >
> > >
> > > No Steve said this:
> > > For filters, the best brand names to buy on are Wix or Purolator.
> > > Filters from a dealer and labelled with a car-maker's parts division
> > > are truly of unknown origin in many cases.
> > >
> > > And my response would be unless you have all of the information about
> > > the performance of a group of filters (or any automotive component)
> > > then you do not know whether one filter with a brand name on it willl
> > > perform any better or worse than a filter with a car manufacturers
> > > brand name on the outside.
> >
> > That's correct, because you don't know what is in the
> > manufacturer-branded box until you open it. Which is what Steve said.
> >
> > >
> > > This discussion heads in the same direction every time it comes up.
> > > Some of us are in love with a particular brand and when pressed to say
> > > why the response is along the line of "It's a better filter" or "I've
> > > always used brand XXX and it has never let me down", but there is no
> > > evidence provided to support such a statement. It's little more than
> > > an anecdote trading exercise.
> > >
> >
> > The fact that you don't recognize the evidence or reasoning given
> > doesn't mean that it's not a valid criterion. In this instance I agree
> > with Steve that Wix and Purolator filters have been of apparent
> > consistent high quality for years, therefore buying a Wix or Purolator
> > branded filter is a reasonable assurance of quality. This is not
> > always true of manufacturer-branded filters, which have been in some
> > cases rebranded Frams. Whether or not you agree, there is good
> > evidence that Frams have not been consistently high quality products.
> >
> > > > Which brings us full circle to the original
> > > > poster's question regarding using a particular aftermarket air filter.
> > > > Now that particular filter in my opinion may not be the best choice for
> > > > regular on-road use, but there may very well be aftermarket filters
> > > > available that ARE better choices than an OEM-branded part, with little
> > > > or no cost penalty.
> > > >
> > > > You certainly can't say with a straight face that you'd rather have the
> > > > oil that comes out of the 55-gallon drum at a dealership than some
> > > > Mobil One or Redline, can you? But the oil in the 55-gallon drum meets
> > > > the manufacturer's specifications... (well, usually. There have been
> > > > exceptions...)
> > >
> > > I could not imagine why anyone would want to get into vetting the
> > > sources for components used on a car.
> >
> > I can't imagine why someone would make a statement like that. Of
> > course I always attempt to use the highest quality parts that I can on
> > my car, within some financial constraints.
> >
> > > Neither you nor steve has access
> > > to information to show that the filters provided by GM, Volvo,
> > > Mercedes, etc., is any better or worse than an over the shelf unit.
> > > Unless of course you can come up with independent laboratory tests of
> > > the performance of those filters that shows something to the contrary.
> > > That website fallls way short of providing such information.
> > >
> >
> > It does, however, show that OEM filters are not always made by the same
> > manufacturer, even for the same part number. I'd rather know what's in
> > the box I'm ordering.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The website presents an interesting home project, but in terms of this
> > > > > discussion it adds very little.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It certainly lends credence to Steve's assertion.
> > >
> > > It is little more than a long anecdote about someone who cut a bunch of
> > > filters apart with NO information about how the filters perform in the
> > > real world.
> >
> > Again, I've heard enough anecdotal evidence about how Frams perform in
> > the real world that I don't want to take the chance of having one on
> > any of my engines (more pertinent to oil filters than to the original
> > subject of air filters, however.) I've had personal experience with
> > faulty Frams (nonfunctional ADBVs) that predispose me to not choose
> > them. I wouldn't want to pay a premium to buy an OEM part just to find
> > that it's the same crap that I've had bad experiences with in the past,
> > when Wix filters have always performed flawlessly for me and many
> > others.
> >
> > nate
>
> As I have said over and over all this group is doing is repeating
> anecdotes with little solid evidence to base their proclamations of
> product quality on. It's like the guy that puts a half-cup of oil
> enhancer in with every oil change and proclaims that Motor Honey (or
> some other product) Did It Again because my engine has been running for
> xx years. If you are a true believer then I'm sure the lack of facts
> won't get in the way.

Well, if every time I see a slant six that rattles and knocks and keeps
its oil light on for 5+ seconds after a cold start it has a Fram
installed, and if on each car I change the oil and filter using a Wix
filter and it stops doing that, in the future, what brand filter would
you recommend that I use? Fram or Wix?

nate

N8N > wrote:
>Well, if every time I see a slant six that rattles and knocks and keeps
>its oil light on for 5+ seconds after a cold start it has a Fram
>installed, and if on each car I change the oil and filter using a Wix
>filter and it stops doing that, in the future, what brand filter would
>you recommend that I use? Fram or Wix?

The issue is that it's entirely possible that the issues would have gone
away even if you'd have replaced the filter with another Fram. That is,
the fresh oil and any fresh filter would have helped.

Much as I dislike Fram filters, I haven't seen any good numbers on the
things either. So I'm not going to flat out say they're all no good,
even though I might avoid buying them myself.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"John S." > wrote in message
oups.com...

> As I have said over and over all this group is doing is repeating
> anecdotes with little solid evidence to base their proclamations of
> product quality on. It's like the guy that puts a half-cup of oil
> enhancer in with every oil change and proclaims that Motor Honey (or
> some other product) Did It Again because my engine has been running for
> xx years. If you are a true believer then I'm sure the lack of facts
> won't get in the way.

Agree with you totally on the value of anecdotal evidence. Wish we had
better
factual evidence.

N8N wrote:

>>> nate
>> As I have said over and over all this group is doing is repeating
>> anecdotes with little solid evidence to base their proclamations of
>> product quality on. It's like the guy that puts a half-cup of oil
>> enhancer in with every oil change and proclaims that Motor Honey (or
>> some other product) Did It Again because my engine has been running for
>> xx years. If you are a true believer then I'm sure the lack of facts
>> won't get in the way.
>
> Well, if every time I see a slant six that rattles and knocks and keeps
> its oil light on for 5+ seconds after a cold start it has a Fram
> installed, and if on each car I change the oil and filter using a Wix
> filter and it stops doing that, in the future, what brand filter would
> you recommend that I use? Fram or Wix?
>
> nate
>
wouldn't that depend if you were the owner or someone who sells slant
six bearings for a living?