10% Ethanol in Gas

In article <01c84862$19df0420$cc94c3d8@race>, * > wrote:
>...
>>
>> 10% ethanol won't eat anything. 50% ethanol sure will.
>
>Actually, 100 percent ethanol would be fine.....It is Methanol - methyl
>alcohol - that eats aluminum.

I was thinking of eating the rubber, not the aluminum.

I believe the aluminum corrosion problems are not specifically due to
methanol but due to dissolved water with the methanol, but I am not
positive about that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <01c84862$19df0420$cc94c3d8@race>, * > wrote:
>> >...
>>> 10% ethanol won't eat anything. 50% ethanol sure will.
>> Actually, 100 percent ethanol would be fine.....It is Methanol - methyl
>> alcohol - that eats aluminum.
>
> I was thinking of eating the rubber, not the aluminum.
>
> I believe the aluminum corrosion problems are not specifically due to
> methanol but due to dissolved water with the methanol, but I am not
> positive about that.
> --scott

My owners manual states the water content from the alcohol mix is a
large problem and it states 'no matter how many drying agents they 'say'
is in them'.

The other issue is the old style 'rubber' hoses and things like the
'rubber' tip of the float needle.

I almost shudder to think of what the stuff might do to my plastic gas
tank, but hopefully the plastic will hold out.

I don't know what caused it, but i recently had to replace a carb for a
friend because the insides were almost completely dissolved. This is
the aluminum frame parts like the float bowl.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

Mike Romain > wrote in
g.com:

> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>> Mike Romain > wrote in
>> g.com:
>>
>>> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>>> Mike Romain > wrote in news:476c0a93$0$30680
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>>>>> In spite of my disagreeing with you. At least in the US you can
>>>>>> get a exemption if your viechiel is not said by the manufacture
>>>>>> to use any ethanol.
>>>>>> On the other hand, I know of very few that offically say they
>>>>>> can not
>>>>>> use it. KB
>>>>>>
>>>>> You know Kevin, one thing you seem to miss is the nature of what I
>>>>> drive. It has the aerodynamics of a brick so needs 'full' power
>>>>> to be able to cruise at highway speeds. Any slight loss, means
>>>>> the gas pedal has to be mashed to the floor to hold 65 on a hill
>>>>> or in a head wind instead of floating along at half throttle.
>>>>> This makes a radical difference in gas mileage.
>>>>>
>>>>> The owners manual for both of my AMC Jeeps also warns of
>>>>> drivability
>>>> and
>>>>> poor performance issues with the mix, let alone forbidding it's
>>>>> use in the CJ7 so it is even 'expected'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>>>> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and
>>>>> Build Photos: ://mhttpikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>>>>
>>>> just for curiosity sake, what is your gearing, rear end ratio and
>>>> tire size? compression ratio of the eng. too. also the dist
>>>> advance curve if you know it. KB
>>>>
>>> I am running tall skinny BFG mud tires in a 33x9.5" size with 3.31
>>> gears. This gives me 2300 rpm at 65 mph in 4th gear of my T5
>>> tranny. I do not use overdrive or 5th gear because of lugging issues
>>> which again drops me by 5 mpg when I use it vs 4th. 5th at 65 mph
>>> is only 1725 or so RPM which is to low.
>>>
>>> In other words I am right at the edge of good drivability and gear
>>> ratios....
>>>
>>> My 258 or 4.2L straight six engine has a 2bbl Weber-Carter BBD
>>> feedback carb on it with no computer running any emissions or the
>>> feedback circuit so it's totally manually set up. It has an Accel
>>> SuperCoil, slightly overgapped plugs, oversized straight pipe
>>> leading to a Dynomax SuperTurbo muffler, no cat needed on a CJ7 here
>>> in Canada and pretty much stock everything else.
>>>
>>> Base timing is at 9 deg BTDC with a ported vacuum source and a
>>> mechanical plate advance. My mechanical advance comes in full at
>>> approximately 1600 rpm. Ported advances with throttle. My light
>>> isn't fancy enough for the full advance degree reading.
>>>
>>> I have had two physical engines and several different distributors
>>> in, all giving me the same basic performance curve so figure it's
>>> 'right'.
>>>
>>> I can pass Canadian tailpipe emissions on the ASM 2525 test with 589
>>> NOx , 16 ppm HC and 0.11% CO.
>>>
>>> I get a stable 23 mpg or 11L/100km highway (checked recently using
>>> Esso 91 octane) and it goes like a scalded cat with it's light all
>>> fiberglass body. 1st lights up the tires way too easy, 2nd tops out
>>> at 52 mph turning 4400 rpm, 3rd pulls hard up to 75 mph, 4th buries
>>> the speedo and I have 'no' urge to find out how fast 5th will go.
>>>
>>> It will purr along on our 400 series highways at a nice 120-140 kph
>>> so I can keep up to the big trucks easy. (120 kph in the slow lane
>>> usually around here holds up traffic, 100 kph or 65 mph is almost
>>> suicidal)
>>>
>>> We have taken it on three 3000 to 4500 'mile' vacation trips to the
>>> east coast even.
>>>
>>> All in all I/we love the old thing and have a new frame sitting in
>>> the back yard getting beefed up before installing in the spring. It
>>> needs it's TLC still. It is not forgiving about when needing a tune
>>> up either, LOL!...
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>> 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
>>> Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
>>
>> I will ponder this awhile and see what I think.
>> If I were you I would really want to slap some stock wheels on for a
>> full tank trip and use 5th and see what the milage and power
>> differences are. It could prove a over geared or not situtation. If
>> its as light as I think it should be. probly 2600 lbs or so, it
>> should pull those tall gears ok sans a strong headwind if the dist.
>> mech advance is truly all in by 1700 rpm.
>> If you want to play, when you try a tank of ethanol bump your timeing
>> about 3 degrees. KB
>>
>
> I ran stock 31's and used fifth fine when I first bought it. The
> mileage was the same if not slightly higher(better) when the odometer
> differences are taken into account.
>
> Which 'way' should I bump the timing? I might be forced to do this
> because no more 'real' gas is being sold here in Canada.


you need to bump the timeing up 2 to 4 degrees, If it doesn`t ping it
is just free efficiency regardless of fuel. But ethanol can take more
advance for sure. It may just be that it needs more on the vacuume
advance end too. Advance curves are tricky things to play with because
there are so many paramaters that affect them. I have spent alot of years
experementing with them.


>
> Now if I could just keep my float needle tips from dissolving.... I
> get two years 'max' out of them because I can't always find real gas,
> I need a solid needle.


I find this confusing because most float needles are epm rubber that
will take most any chemicals in stride. It would be nice to find out
before your next change out. also off roading is senceitive to fuel
pressure being even a bit to high as the float wants to bounce anyway, If
your over maby 4 lbs it may be too much for your enviroment. the only
reason to need more is if its running lean at WOT. KB
PS my 85 F350 460 carb motor is going on 20 years of using 10% ethanol
mix with out a carb problem yet. Haven`t even had to overhall the carb
yet.



>
> My engine will pull fine in 5th at 65-70 mph, I just get better
> mileage running 4th. In 4th a twitch of the gas pedal compensates for
> wind, in 5th, I have to use the whole pedal range.
>
> Mike
>



--
Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>> Mike Romain > wrote in
<snip>
>>
>> Which 'way' should I bump the timing? I might be forced to do this
>> because no more 'real' gas is being sold here in Canada.
>
>
> you need to bump the timeing up 2 to 4 degrees, If it doesn`t ping it
> is just free efficiency regardless of fuel. But ethanol can take more
> advance for sure. It may just be that it needs more on the vacuume
> advance end too. Advance curves are tricky things to play with because
> there are so many paramaters that affect them. I have spent alot of years
> experementing with them.

I used to run a Mallory distributor I could dial in the advance on, it
was nice.

My engine specs say some setups can handle up to 12 BTDC for high
altitude running. I am running 8 or 9.

I am almost out of gas so I will get a good test bed with the fuel mix
in a couple days and play with the timing.

Will that fuel affect the engine vacuum? When setting the timing, a
vacuum gauge will get it within a degree or two by going to highest
vacuum, then backing off an inch vacuum. Do you think that would still
be valid with the mix because I can do both at once easily, likely will
just to see.

I was also running hot at speed so figured the timing was maxed. Needed
a new rad, got that and dropped 25% overall in temps.

>
>
>> Now if I could just keep my float needle tips from dissolving.... I
>> get two years 'max' out of them because I can't always find real gas,
>> I need a solid needle.
>
>
> I find this confusing because most float needles are epm rubber that
> will take most any chemicals in stride. It would be nice to find out
> before your next change out. also off roading is senceitive to fuel
> pressure being even a bit to high as the float wants to bounce anyway, If
> your over maby 4 lbs it may be too much for your enviroment. the only
> reason to need more is if its running lean at WOT. KB

I might have had really old stock but never really thought of the bounce
factor. Mine gets bounced on a very regular basis and the regulator
(metered orifice) in the fuel filter hasn't always been hooked up. That
could account for the ring cut into the 'rubber' tip. I still have the
mechanical suction pump on the engine.

I did find one kit that had a solid needle once.

> PS my 85 F350 460 carb motor is going on 20 years of using 10% ethanol
> mix with out a carb problem yet. Haven`t even had to overhall the carb
> yet.

Wow, if I don't address the carb every two years, I am asking for
trouble. I will get a sticky float needle at least so to replace the
needle and seat have to buy a kit, so I put it in. I always find enough
crap inside to figure it was worth it, but running in the muddy and
dusty environment has lots to do with that.

'You play, you pay' is a saying most off roaders are familiar with.

Thanks for the input!

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

Mike Romain > wrote:
>I am almost out of gas so I will get a good test bed with the fuel mix
>in a couple days and play with the timing.

You may want to consider adding MTBE, in the form of an "octane enhancer."
Not as a permanent measure, but as a diagnostic. It should make no
difference... if it does, you know it's either a vapor pressure or a
predetonation issue. (And you should have ruled the latter out already.)
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Kevin Bottorff wrote:

>
> you need to bump the timeing up 2 to 4 degrees, If it doesn`t ping it
> is just free efficiency regardless of fuel.

Probably not good advice. From what I can tell he is comparing low-grade
regular (87 octane?) with high grade premium (93 octane?). Both probably
contain ethanol. The real issue is how to tune it for whatever else what
is in the fuel. That probably is going to mean retarding the timing. He
may already be set pretty advanced which would explain why he gets much
better mileage on high octane.



>But ethanol can take more
> advance for sure.

Yes, that would be true if that was the one thing that makes the 2 fuels
different - but it is not.

-jim





>It may just be that it needs more on the vacuume
> advance end too. Advance curves are tricky things to play with because
> there are so many paramaters that affect them. I have spent alot of years
> experementing with them.
>
> >
> > Now if I could just keep my float needle tips from dissolving.... I
> > get two years 'max' out of them because I can't always find real gas,
> > I need a solid needle.
>
> I find this confusing because most float needles are epm rubber that
> will take most any chemicals in stride. It would be nice to find out
> before your next change out. also off roading is senceitive to fuel
> pressure being even a bit to high as the float wants to bounce anyway, If
> your over maby 4 lbs it may be too much for your enviroment. the only
> reason to need more is if its running lean at WOT. KB
> PS my 85 F350 460 carb motor is going on 20 years of using 10% ethanol
> mix with out a carb problem yet. Haven`t even had to overhall the carb
> yet.
>
> >
> > My engine will pull fine in 5th at 65-70 mph, I just get better
> > mileage running 4th. In 4th a twitch of the gas pedal compensates for
> > wind, in 5th, I have to use the whole pedal range.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> --
> Thunder Snake #9
> "Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

C. E. White wrote:

>>
>>Off topic, but some of the people around here feed commercial chicken
>>house
>>litter to cattle. And, there doesnt seem to be a law against it. I would
>>far prefer to feed them sour mash solids that chicken feces.
>
>
> Chickens have horribly inefficient digestive systems comapred to cows.


Well, they are just surviving dinosaurs after all.... ;-)

> Having raised cattle all my life, I don't think chicken s*&t is the worst
> thing cows eat.

Chicken $#1t is pretty nasty, given some of the diseases (no, not "bird
flu just ordinary bacterial stuff) that they can carry.

>
> However, I think the best use for chicken litter is as fertilizer. It is
> good stuff! Years ago my Father applied a quanity to one of our poorer
> fields and you can still tell the difference.

It can actually be TOO "good." You can burn some crops pretty badly with
chicken manure, especially if it hasn't had a chance to compost
sufficiently.

On Dec 20 2007, 1:21*pm, clifto > wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> > My car gets 10% less mileage on 10% ethanol.
>
> Funny you should say. "They" say that won't happen, and yet the same thing
> happens in my case with two cars. Haven't had real gasoline in the third
> car yet. so can't say if it's unanimous.
>
> --
> Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
> Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
> as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

Well, of course it ought to. maybe not 10% less, but 5% less.
Certainly, people who use 85% ethanol report about a 33% drop in
mileage, which is what you'd expect from 85% of your fuel suddenly
giving you half as much energy.

On Dec 21 2007, 10:13*am, N8N > wrote:
> On Dec 20, 9:17*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > phaeton > wrote:
> > >I hear a lot of people up in arms about the addition of Ethanol to
> > >gasoline. *Many places do it just in the wintertime, others do it year
> > >round. *One of the gas stations in my little town even has a bunch of
> > >"100% REAL GAS - *NO ETHANOL" signs up all over the place. *With all
> > >the whining and crying about "people putting water in the gas[sic]",
> > >I've honestly never noticed a difference in operation or efficiency.
>
> > 10% ethanol is good. *Yes, it slightly reduces the total energy of
> > combustion a little, but it prevents knocking and it's much less
> > hazardous than the other popular anti-knock additives like MTBE and lead..
>
> > >My guess is that Ethanol earned a bad reputation (1970s, maybe?) when
> > >cars used to be carbureted and timing advanced with mechanical weights
> > >and such. *However, modern cars with EFI and its associated arsenal of
> > >sensors simply adapt to whatever difference it makes, but many people
> > >are still stuck with the 'ethanol sucks' mentality. *True?
>
> > Also, realize that ethanol dissolves a lot of rubber formulations. *Run
> > pure ethanol in your car and you'll find hoses and seals going bad right
> > and left. *A lot of people had that experience trying pure ethanol back
> > in the seventies, too. *Of course, back then it wasn't quite so bad since
> > there weren't anywhere near as many hoses and seals to replace....
> > --scott
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> Not to mention the fuel pump diaphragm, if you still have a mechanical
> fuel pump.
>
> Other comments about having to rejet the carb are correct, and even so
> there will still be a slight drop in MPG. *I also am not sold on
> ethanol, at least corn-based ethanol, being an eventual renewable
> replacement for gasoline.

Well, for one thing, we can't possibly make nearly enough of it.

z wrote:
> On Dec 21 2007, 10:13*am, N8N > wrote:
>> Other comments about having to rejet the carb are correct, and even so
>> there will still be a slight drop in MPG. *I also am not sold on
>> ethanol, at least corn-based ethanol, being an eventual renewable
>> replacement for gasoline.
>
> Well, for one thing, we can't possibly make nearly enough of it.

Sure we can. We just can't possibly make enough of it and still eat.

--
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.