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identifying antique car



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 8th 04, 08:51 PM
Dave Chamberlain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default identifying antique car

I'm doing some scanning work at my local Historical Society and came
across the following un-dated picture. I'm posting a link, not including
it in the post :-)
http://www.mv.com/users/davec/car.jpg

The picture is taken outside the firestation on the grounds of the
firestation. There isn't much to be seen of the car itself and I'm
trying to contact the right people at the DMV or state historical
to help me track down the license plate.

The vehicle is thought to be the first gas powered fire truck in town,
but we can't be sure. I'm hoping someone may recognize something on the
vehicle to help us track down what it is, or even what year!

The logo on the grille, when enlarged, appears to be in cursive, going
up from left to right. It looks like it starts with a "B" and ends with
either a "k" (Buick perhaps?) or a "t". I do not see a bell in the
photo though.

Please post or email me with any questions, suggestions or for a link
to a bigger photo if needed.

Thanks

--

-davec
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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  #2  
Old January 9th 04, 12:19 AM
CURLY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Dave Chamberlain) wrote in message >...
> I'm doing some scanning work at my local Historical Society and came
> across the following un-dated picture. I'm posting a link, not including
> it in the post :-)
>
http://www.mv.com/users/davec/car.jpg
>
> The picture is taken outside the firestation on the grounds of the
> firestation. There isn't much to be seen of the car itself and I'm
> trying to contact the right people at the DMV or state historical
> to help me track down the license plate.
>
> The vehicle is thought to be the first gas powered fire truck in town,
> but we can't be sure. I'm hoping someone may recognize something on the
> vehicle to help us track down what it is, or even what year!
>
> The logo on the grille, when enlarged, appears to be in cursive, going
> up from left to right. It looks like it starts with a "B" and ends with
> either a "k" (Buick perhaps?) or a "t". I do not see a bell in the
> photo though.
>
> Please post or email me with any questions, suggestions or for a link
> to a bigger photo if needed.
>
> Thanks


Interesting project, should be fun to try and figure out. I am not
familar with the vehicle, but certain things I noticed may help narrow
it down.

The head lights look to be acetylene or carbide gas type, not
electrical. The steering is on the right which means the car/truck
was built before Henry's T had time to influence the industry.
Finally, the girl in the center with the cloth tied around her neck is
wearing an outfit similar to the one my Aunt is wearing in an old
picture. My guess is the photo was taken around 1915, and the vehicle
may be a year or two older.
If I find out anything from my reference material, I will let you
know.
Good luck
  #3  
Old January 9th 04, 12:27 AM
Dave Chamberlain
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

CURLY ) wrote:
: (Dave Chamberlain) wrote in message >...
:
: Interesting project, should be fun to try and figure out. I am not
: familar with the vehicle, but certain things I noticed may help narrow
: it down.
:
: The head lights look to be acetylene or carbide gas type, not
: electrical. The steering is on the right which means the car/truck
: was built before Henry's T had time to influence the industry.
: Finally, the girl in the center with the cloth tied around her neck is
: wearing an outfit similar to the one my Aunt is wearing in an old
: picture. My guess is the photo was taken around 1915, and the vehicle
: may be a year or two older.
: If I find out anything from my reference material, I will let you

Thanks for the insights, I know nothing about old cars/trucks so I've
been taking stabs in the dark randomly looking at pictures.

This is a fun project for me. Over the holidays I worked on a picture
of a cannon being towed down the street and tried to identify both
where and when, but then went further and tried to figure out "why".
I was able to enlarge the buildings behind the subject enough to read
some of the building signs and who had businesses there. I was even able
to find an image within a reflection of a window and figure out what kind
of building was behind the photographer. By searching city directories
looking for a time when all the businesses were in business at the same time,
I was able to find an exact location and narrow it down to a 3 year span.
Then I noticed what appeared to be a single flag was actually two flags.
By looking closer at that, I was able to find a star configuration and
see that it was a 46 star flag dating it to 1896 or 1897. Doing some
area research lead me to July 5-12, 1897.

I appreciate any insights anyone can give. Even if it is a small thing,
it helps by adding just another clue to the overall picture.

--

-davec
-----------------------------------------------------------------
  #4  
Old January 13th 04, 04:15 PM
George King III
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Dave --- I just ran across your question about the car in the photo.
Can you tell me in what state the photo was taken? It is an early car
from around 1906 to 1909. The plate looks like it might be from
Massachusetts. Early cars were often purchased from local manufactures.
This may help in the ID of your photo. Major companies such as Ford or
Buick whould ship father afield but regional manufactuer should be
condidered.

Right now, I am leanding toward a 1906 Buick.

Please contact me a >--- George King






Dave Chamberlain wrote:

>I'm doing some scanning work at my local Historical Society and came
>across the following un-dated picture. I'm posting a link, not including
>it in the post :-)
> http://www.mv.com/users/davec/car.jpg
>
>The picture is taken outside the firestation on the grounds of the
>firestation. There isn't much to be seen of the car itself and I'm
>trying to contact the right people at the DMV or state historical
>to help me track down the license plate.
>
>The vehicle is thought to be the first gas powered fire truck in town,
>but we can't be sure. I'm hoping someone may recognize something on the
>vehicle to help us track down what it is, or even what year!
>
>The logo on the grille, when enlarged, appears to be in cursive, going
>up from left to right. It looks like it starts with a "B" and ends with
>either a "k" (Buick perhaps?) or a "t". I do not see a bell in the
>photo though.
>
>Please post or email me with any questions, suggestions or for a link
>to a bigger photo if needed.
>
>Thanks
>


  #5  
Old January 13th 04, 09:17 PM
Dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The picture is taken in New Boston, New Hampshire, which is about 10 miles
west of Manchester (which is about 20 miles North of Massachusetts).

The plate (1147) does have "NH" on the bottom of it. I have tried to track
it down through that, but it isn't going anyplace other than giving me a
nice tour of the different departements that can't help me :-)


"George King III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dave --- I just ran across your question about the car in the photo.
> Can you tell me in what state the photo was taken? It is an early car
> from around 1906 to 1909. The plate looks like it might be from
> Massachusetts. Early cars were often purchased from local manufactures.
> This may help in the ID of your photo. Major companies such as Ford or
> Buick whould ship father afield but regional manufactuer should be
> condidered.
>
> Right now, I am leanding toward a 1906 Buick.
>
> Please contact me a >--- George King
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave Chamberlain wrote:
>
> >I'm doing some scanning work at my local Historical Society and came
> >across the following un-dated picture. I'm posting a link, not including
> >it in the post :-)
> > http://www.mv.com/users/davec/car.jpg
> >
> >The picture is taken outside the firestation on the grounds of the
> >firestation. There isn't much to be seen of the car itself and I'm
> >trying to contact the right people at the DMV or state historical
> >to help me track down the license plate.
> >
> >The vehicle is thought to be the first gas powered fire truck in town,
> >but we can't be sure. I'm hoping someone may recognize something on the
> >vehicle to help us track down what it is, or even what year!
> >
> >The logo on the grille, when enlarged, appears to be in cursive, going
> >up from left to right. It looks like it starts with a "B" and ends with
> >either a "k" (Buick perhaps?) or a "t". I do not see a bell in the
> >photo though.
> >
> >Please post or email me with any questions, suggestions or for a link
> >to a bigger photo if needed.
> >
> >Thanks
> >

>



  #6  
Old January 14th 04, 04:56 AM
George King III
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

OK Dave --- I have check with the Buick guru and he agrees so here is my
opinion.

It appears that the car is a Buick. It was built between 1906 and
1910. The engine in this car was a two cylinder cast iron inline engine
with a bore of 4.5 and a stroke of 5 for a total displacement of 159
cubic inches. It developed 22 horsepower at 1200 RPM. The
transmission was a two speed planetary and the car had two wheel,
mechanical brakes. The Model G was a two seat roadster and the Model F
was a four seat touring car.

The engine was mounted under and just to the rear of the front seat.
Final drive to the wheels was by a chain. Under the hood was a gas
tank. You can see the fill cap on top of the hood in your picture.

I would suspect that the car in the picture is a Model F touring car.
It would be difficult (but not impossible for school kids) to get 24
people in a roadster.

In 1906, the Model F weighed 1,850 pounds and cost $1,250. The roadster
cost one hundred dollars less. There were 1,207 touring cars built that
year compared to only 193 roadsters. This is another reason to lean
towards this car being a Model F. Starting in 1907 and running through
the end of production in 1910, Buick produced more than 3,000 Model F's
each year and only a few hundred of the roadsters.

For more details about the Model F take a look at
http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada...el_f_spec.html

In New Hampshire, 1905 was the first year for license plates and 1909
was the first year of driver's licenses. Check the town records for
property taxes paid on vehicles as well as listing of licensed drivers.
Town annual reports often have this information. Check the local papers
for "motor car" articles. Also, many state published directories of
license plates for each year. These are highly prized by license plate
collectors.

You might want to try Gerry Griffin at the New Hampshire License Plate
Museum. He is a member of the Antique License Plate Collectors
Association. His membership number is 7626. You should be able to date
the plate by the color combination of white on dark (most likely green)
and fact that the "NH" is below the numbers. Most NH plates have the
"NH" above or to the left of the numbers.

Also check out a book entitled, "A History of New Hampshire License
Plates, 1905-1996 by Stanley A Hamel. The New Hampshire Historical
Society has a copy listed under under "Library 629.9 H212"

Consider that the lady sitting in the passenger's seat might be the
school teacher. Compare her image to that of other pictures of the
school classes during this same period.

Is that the school building to the right of the fire house? It appears
that the picture was taken in late spring or early fall. There are
leaves on the trees and dandelions in the grass. The children are
wearing long sleeves and some have coats. Take a look at the local paper
for an article about the Mr. Smith brining his new car to the school for
all the students to see.

Please let me know what you find out. --- George King III, Connecticut
Antique Engine Restoration

Dave wrote:

>The picture is taken in New Boston, New Hampshire, which is about 10 miles
>west of Manchester (which is about 20 miles North of Massachusetts).
>
>The plate (1147) does have "NH" on the bottom of it. I have tried to track
>it down through that, but it isn't going anyplace other than giving me a
>nice tour of the different departments that can't help me :-)
>
>
>"George King III" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>Dave --- I just ran across your question about the car in the photo.
>> Can you tell me in what state the photo was taken? It is an early car
>>from around 1906 to 1909. The plate looks like it might be from
>>Massachusetts. Early cars were often purchased from local manufactures.
>> This may help in the ID of your photo. Major companies such as Ford or
>>Buick whould ship father afield but regional manufactuer should be
>>condidered.
>>
>>Right now, I am leanding toward a 1906 Buick.
>>
>>Please contact me a >--- George King
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Dave Chamberlain wrote:
>>
>>>I'm doing some scanning work at my local Historical Society and came
>>>across the following un-dated picture. I'm posting a link, not including
>>>it in the post :-)
>>> http://www.mv.com/users/davec/car.jpg
>>>
>>>The picture is taken outside the firestation on the grounds of the
>>>firestation. There isn't much to be seen of the car itself and I'm
>>>trying to contact the right people at the DMV or state historical
>>>to help me track down the license plate.
>>>
>>>The vehicle is thought to be the first gas powered fire truck in town,
>>>but we can't be sure. I'm hoping someone may recognize something on the
>>>vehicle to help us track down what it is, or even what year!
>>>
>>>The logo on the grille, when enlarged, appears to be in cursive, going
>>>up from left to right. It looks like it starts with a "B" and ends with
>>>either a "k" (Buick perhaps?) or a "t". I do not see a bell in the
>>>photo though.
>>>
>>>Please post or email me with any questions, suggestions or for a link
>>>to a bigger photo if needed.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>

>
>



  #7  
Old January 14th 04, 06:09 AM
Dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

WOW!

Thanks!

I too noticed the grass and the trees and had come up with a fall timeframe.
However, after all the studying and blowing up of the picture, I never
noticed the woman sitting there. I did notice the man, but not the woman.
Amazing what a second pair of eyes can come up with.

There isn't a town paper, which makes it harder to come up with articles, to
this day the best we have is a monthly paper (and that is only about 3 years
old). I may be able to check the tax records, but of course nothing is on
computer (that's actually what I'm doing as well as scanning in hundreds of
old pictures and trying to get a rough date on them).

The buildings you see in the background are the firestation, which in this
picture was big enough for horse drawn equipment. There was an extension
added to the left side of it and the doors moved to the left side when the
town started getting gas-powered equipment. When that became too big the
department moved to a building which is behind the photographer. The
building to the right is the side of the town hall, although there is a
school across the street. The town did have a highschool that was separate
from the primary schools, although I honestly don't know which ones were in
the area at this time. JR Whipple (owner of the Parker House and Young's
hotels) was a resident and New Boston was a vacation stop as it was about
3-4 hour horse/buggy ride from Boston.

I'll try contacting the names you gave me below and see what else I can dig
up. The picture you pointed me too is very close. Unfortunately the town
was really hoping this would be the first gas-powered piece of fire
equipment. Thank you for the huge lead.

-dave


  #8  
Old January 14th 04, 01:50 PM
George King III
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Posts: n/a
Default

OK Dave, Here's your bonus answer. The owner of the car is Samuel F.
Langdell of New Boston. I got this information from Gerald Griffin.
Here is his answer to my inquiry:

George, The number was first issued in late 1906 to Samuel F. Langdell, of New Boston, for
a10 HP Maxwell-Brisco. These were Porcelain license Plates, white numbers on a green
background. The plates were "permanent" 1905-1911 although starting in 1910 one had to
renew yearly. If the owner bought a new vehicle he could have transfered the plates. If he
sold the vehicle and didn't replace it he would have turned the plates in and they may
have been issued to someone else. All we can say for certain is that the photo was likely
taken between late 1906 and early 1912. My museum is in Mont Vernon, NH. Minus eleven
degrees here this morning. Hope the information helps. G

From what Jerry says, I would assume that the Buick was Mr. Langdell's
second car. Since he registered the Maxwell-Brisco in 1906, it is
unlikely that the Buick is from that year but it has to be before 1910.

Please let me know if you find any further information. --- gk3

Dave wrote:

>WOW!
>
>Thanks!
>
>I too noticed the grass and the trees and had come up with a fall timeframe.
>However, after all the studying and blowing up of the picture, I never
>noticed the woman sitting there. I did notice the man, but not the woman.
>Amazing what a second pair of eyes can come up with.
>
>There isn't a town paper, which makes it harder to come up with articles, to
>this day the best we have is a monthly paper (and that is only about 3 years
>old). I may be able to check the tax records, but of course nothing is on
>computer (that's actually what I'm doing as well as scanning in hundreds of
>old pictures and trying to get a rough date on them).
>
>The buildings you see in the background are the firestation, which in this
>picture was big enough for horse drawn equipment. There was an extension
>added to the left side of it and the doors moved to the left side when the
>town started getting gas-powered equipment. When that became too big the
>department moved to a building which is behind the photographer. The
>building to the right is the side of the town hall, although there is a
>school across the street. The town did have a highschool that was separate
>from the primary schools, although I honestly don't know which ones were in
>the area at this time. JR Whipple (owner of the Parker House and Young's
>hotels) was a resident and New Boston was a vacation stop as it was about
>3-4 hour horse/buggy ride from Boston.
>
>I'll try contacting the names you gave me below and see what else I can dig
>up. The picture you pointed me too is very close. Unfortunately the town
>was really hoping this would be the first gas-powered piece of fire
>equipment. Thank you for the huge lead.
>
>-dave
>
>


  #9  
Old January 14th 04, 04:27 PM
Dave
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you again!

This is great information, conveniently enough, Mont Vernon borders New
Boston on the south. I think I"ll try to contact Mr. Griffin, and I just
took the dog for a walk, it is currently -8 (at 10:27am).

-dave

"George King III" > wrote in message
...
> OK Dave, Here's your bonus answer. The owner of the car is Samuel F.
> Langdell of New Boston. I got this information from Gerald Griffin.
> Here is his answer to my inquiry:
>
> George, The number was first issued in late 1906 to Samuel F. Langdell, of

New Boston, for
> a10 HP Maxwell-Brisco. These were Porcelain license Plates, white numbers

on a green
> background. The plates were "permanent" 1905-1911 although starting in

1910 one had to
> renew yearly. If the owner bought a new vehicle he could have transfered

the plates. If he
> sold the vehicle and didn't replace it he would have turned the plates in

and they may
> have been issued to someone else. All we can say for certain is that the

photo was likely
> taken between late 1906 and early 1912. My museum is in Mont Vernon, NH.

Minus eleven
> degrees here this morning. Hope the information helps. G
>
> From what Jerry says, I would assume that the Buick was Mr. Langdell's
> second car. Since he registered the Maxwell-Brisco in 1906, it is
> unlikely that the Buick is from that year but it has to be before 1910.
>
> Please let me know if you find any further information. --- gk3
>
> Dave wrote:
>
> >WOW!
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >I too noticed the grass and the trees and had come up with a fall

timeframe.
> >However, after all the studying and blowing up of the picture, I never
> >noticed the woman sitting there. I did notice the man, but not the

woman.
> >Amazing what a second pair of eyes can come up with.
> >
> >There isn't a town paper, which makes it harder to come up with articles,

to
> >this day the best we have is a monthly paper (and that is only about 3

years
> >old). I may be able to check the tax records, but of course nothing is

on
> >computer (that's actually what I'm doing as well as scanning in hundreds

of
> >old pictures and trying to get a rough date on them).
> >
> >The buildings you see in the background are the firestation, which in

this
> >picture was big enough for horse drawn equipment. There was an extension
> >added to the left side of it and the doors moved to the left side when

the
> >town started getting gas-powered equipment. When that became too big the
> >department moved to a building which is behind the photographer. The
> >building to the right is the side of the town hall, although there is a
> >school across the street. The town did have a highschool that was

separate
> >from the primary schools, although I honestly don't know which ones were

in
> >the area at this time. JR Whipple (owner of the Parker House and Young's
> >hotels) was a resident and New Boston was a vacation stop as it was about
> >3-4 hour horse/buggy ride from Boston.
> >
> >I'll try contacting the names you gave me below and see what else I can

dig
> >up. The picture you pointed me too is very close. Unfortunately the

town
> >was really hoping this would be the first gas-powered piece of fire
> >equipment. Thank you for the huge lead.
> >
> >-dave
> >
> >

>



 




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