94 Explorer VIN X V6 runs for a minute and dies

Hi Alex

New test results including engine running.

I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.

The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
or loose connections and also found nothing.

Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.

Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
car died.

Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.

Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
30 seconds, same as before.

Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.

Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.

Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.

Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
activation. The CEL has not come on either.

As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
soon) if nothing improves.

I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
can find.

Thanks

Jim

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:

>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>
>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>at exhaust.
>
>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>
>I am glad the light is working for you.
>
>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>pos sensor or the PCM.
>
>
>J Adams wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>
>> Hi Alex
>>
>> I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>> get
>> 111 system pass
>> 10 cylinder one
>> 111 system pass
>> thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>> 10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>> wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>
>> Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>> KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>> would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>> it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>> the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>
>> I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>> The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>> erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>> the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>> the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>> spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>> If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>> spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>> the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>> test light and spark simultaneously.
>>
>> If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>> missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>> CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>
>> By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>> circuits.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>
>>>Good luck,
>>>
>>>Alex
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>
>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>
>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>
>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>
>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>
>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>see.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>
>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>
>>>>>dave
>>>>>

Hi Jim:

For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
to do with the ignition.

I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
not for the spark.

I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
about testing the CMP itself.

Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
voltage against ground when the car dies? Is the 12V present all the
time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the injectors have the
+12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on and off as required.

Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.

Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
inject.

Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
longer for the car to die.

I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.

This forum is scary:
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930

Good luck!

J Adams wrote:
> Hi Alex
>
> New test results including engine running.
>
> I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
> Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
> circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>
> The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
> ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
> disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
> or loose connections and also found nothing.
>
> Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
> wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
> light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
> easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>
> Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
> 4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
> misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
> stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
> conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
> attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
> tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
> car died.
>
> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>
> Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
> up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
> before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
> longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
> each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
> 30 seconds, same as before.
>
> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>
> Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
> tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
> tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
> and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>
> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>
> Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
> tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
> info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
> insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
> reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
> between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
> activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>
> As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
> of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
> I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
> soon) if nothing improves.
>
> I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
> can find.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jim
>
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
>
>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>
>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>at exhaust.
>>
>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>
>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>
>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>
>>>Hi Alex
>>>
>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>get
>>>111 system pass
>>>10 cylinder one
>>>111 system pass
>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>
>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>
>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>
>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>
>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>circuits.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck,
>>>>
>>>>Alex
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>
>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>
>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>
>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>see.....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>

On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:

Hi Alex:

Found this on the internet:
"Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
Regarding the 211 code I was getting.

>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>to do with the ignition.
>
>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>not for the spark.
>
>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>about testing the CMP itself.
As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
run without one?

Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.

>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>voltage against ground when the car dies?
I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
source, should I do these test on each injector?

>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>and off as required.
That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?

>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>
>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>inject.
CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.

>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>longer for the car to die.
Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
affect that.....

>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>
>This forum is scary:
>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>
>Good luck!
>
>J Adams wrote:
>> Hi Alex
>>
>> New test results including engine running.
>>
>> I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>> Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>> circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>
>> The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>> ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>> disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>> or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>
>> Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>> wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>> light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>> easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>
>> Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>> 4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>> misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>> stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>> conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>> attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>> tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>> car died.
>>
>> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>
>> Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>> up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>> before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>> longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>> each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>> 30 seconds, same as before.
>>
>> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>
>> Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>> tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>> tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>> and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>
>> Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>
>> Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>> tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>> info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>> insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>> reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>> between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>> activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>
>> As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>> of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>> I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>> soon) if nothing improves.
>>
>> I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>> can find.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>
>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>at exhaust.
>>>
>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>
>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>
>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>
>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>
>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>get
>>>>111 system pass
>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>111 system pass
>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>
>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>
>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>
>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>
>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>circuits.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>
>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>
>>>>>Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>

Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors:

They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v
is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to
inject the fuel as needed.

So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the
ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which
terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect
to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is
is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this
voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage
(think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice.

The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that
the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have
unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good
electrical contact there.

For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP,
CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure,
coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses.

Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be
sure it is the culprit.

As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have,
(VIN X california?), i will refer you to
http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm

Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are
very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them?
You can test them as per procedure outlined he
http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm

Good luck!

J Adams wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> Hi Alex:
>
> Found this on the internet:
> "Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
> signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
> angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
> Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>
>
>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>to do with the ignition.
>>
>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>not for the spark.
>>
>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>about testing the CMP itself.
>
> As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
> circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
> testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
> run without one?
>
> Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
> mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
> procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
> includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
> check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
> circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
> five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
> and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
> requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
> behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
> clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
> Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
> and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
> before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
> components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
> how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>
>
>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>
> I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
> looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
> run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
> won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
> the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
> source, should I do these test on each injector?
>
>
>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>and off as required.
>
> That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>
>
>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>
>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>
>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>
>>inject.
>
> CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>
>
>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>longer for the car to die.
>
> Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
> affect that.....
>
>
>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>
>>This forum is scary:
>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>
>>Good luck!
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Alex
>>>
>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>
>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>
>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>
>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>
>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>car died.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>
>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>
>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>can find.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>
>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>
>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>
>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>get
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>
>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>

Some reference material:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/car_wont_start.htm

J Adams wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> Hi Alex:
>
> Found this on the internet:
> "Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
> signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
> angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
> Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>
>
>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>to do with the ignition.
>>
>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>not for the spark.
>>
>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>about testing the CMP itself.
>
> As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
> circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
> testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
> run without one?
>
> Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
> mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
> procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
> includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
> check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
> circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
> five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
> and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
> requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
> behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
> clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
> Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
> and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
> before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
> components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
> how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>
>
>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>
> I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
> looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
> run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
> won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
> the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
> source, should I do these test on each injector?
>
>
>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>and off as required.
>
> That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>
>
>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>
>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>
>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>
>>inject.
>
> CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>
>
>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>longer for the car to die.
>
> Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
> affect that.....
>
>
>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>
>>This forum is scary:
>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>
>>Good luck!
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Alex
>>>
>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>
>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>
>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>
>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>
>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>car died.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>
>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>
>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>can find.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>
>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>
>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>
>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>get
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>
>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>

http://www.walkerproducts.com/common_o2_problems.html

J Adams wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
> Hi Alex:
>
> Found this on the internet:
> "Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
> signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
> angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
> Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>
>
>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>to do with the ignition.
>>
>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>not for the spark.
>>
>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>about testing the CMP itself.
>
> As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
> circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
> testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
> run without one?
>
> Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
> mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
> procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
> includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
> check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
> circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
> five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
> and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
> requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
> behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
> clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
> Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
> and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
> before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
> components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
> how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>
>
>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>
> I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
> looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
> run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
> won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
> the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
> source, should I do these test on each injector?
>
>
>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>and off as required.
>
> That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>
>
>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>
>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>
>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>
>>inject.
>
> CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>
>
>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>longer for the car to die.
>
> Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
> affect that.....
>
>
>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>
>>This forum is scary:
>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>
>>Good luck!
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Alex
>>>
>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>
>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>
>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>
>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>
>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>car died.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>
>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>
>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>
>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>
>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>can find.
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>
>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>
>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>
>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>get
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>
>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>
>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>

Hi Alex

Here's the latest:

Used the backprobe at the connector base of the PCM. Just tested the
CMP circuit using this and the Mitchell specification 6.8VDC at idle
and the rest below from the Autozone site:

1. With the ignition OFF, disconnect the CMP sensor. With the
ignition ON and the engine OFF, measure the voltage between sensor
harness connector VPWR and PWR GND terminals (refer to the
accompanying illustration). If the reading is greater than 10.5 volts,
the power circuit to the sensor is okay.
2. With the ignition OFF, install break-out box between the CMP
sensor and the PCM. Using a Digital Volt-Ohmmeter (DVOM) set to the
voltage function (scale set to monitor less than 5 volts), measure
voltage between break-out box terminals 24 and 40 with the engine
running at varying RPM. If the voltage reading varies more than 0.1
volt, the sensor is okay.

Fig. 3: CMP sensor wire harness connections for the 3-wire sensor
VPWR - Black/White
PWR GND - Red
CID / CMP - Dark Blue/Orange

Both tests 1 and 2 came back OK. So now I'm back to why does it run
for a short period of time and then the injectors loose their signal
but I still have spark. Can start it twice OK, but the third time No
Go. Just intermittent signal to the injectors. Also hooked up the DVOM
to the injector and voltage was present even when the engine died (so
not the ignition switch?). The CKP is also fine, does that leave the
PCM?

I did not replace the Oxygen sensors.

Jim


On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:25:18 -0500, AS > wrote:

>Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors:
>
>They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v
>is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to
>inject the fuel as needed.
>
>So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the
>ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which
>terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect
>to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is
>is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this
>voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage
>(think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice.
>
>The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that
>the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have
>unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good
>electrical contact there.
>
>For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP,
>CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure,
>coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses.
>
>Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be
>sure it is the culprit.
>
>As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have,
>(VIN X california?), i will refer you to
>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>
>Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are
>very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them?
>You can test them as per procedure outlined he
>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>
>Good luck!
>
>J Adams wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alex:
>>
>> Found this on the internet:
>> "Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
>> signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
>> angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
>> Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>>
>>
>>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>>to do with the ignition.
>>>
>>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>>not for the spark.
>>>
>>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>>about testing the CMP itself.
>>
>> As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
>> circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
>> testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
>> run without one?
>>
>> Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
>> mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
>> procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
>> includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
>> check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
>> circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
>> five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
>> and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
>> requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
>> behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
>> clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
>> Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
>> and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
>> before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
>> components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
>> how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>>
>>
>>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>>
>> I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
>> looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
>> run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
>> won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
>> the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
>> source, should I do these test on each injector?
>>
>>
>>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>>and off as required.
>>
>> That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>>
>>
>>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>>
>>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>>
>>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>>
>>>inject.
>>
>> CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>>
>>
>>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>>longer for the car to die.
>>
>> Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
>> affect that.....
>>
>>
>>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>>
>>>This forum is scary:
>>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>>
>>>Good luck!
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>
>>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>>
>>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>>
>>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>>
>>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>>
>>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>>car died.
>>>>
>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>
>>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>>
>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>
>>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>>
>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>
>>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>>
>>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>>
>>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>>can find.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Jim
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>>
>>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>>
>>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>>get
>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>>

I am glad the CMP was not defective (the cost thing).

At this point the PCM seems to be the one telling the injectors to stop
working, either by being defective or by getting signals that tell it to
do so. I would check the power and grounds for it.

Most likely you will need to replace the oxygen sensors, antrifreeze
poisoning of O2 sensors is almost a given in your case. The antifreeze
residues will cover the O2 sensor, not allowing the O2 in the exhaust to
reach the sensor. I think that if this is the case, they could be
telling the PCM that the engine is too rich, forcing the PCM to lean out
the mixture. O2 sensors begin to work after they reach operating temp
and this takes a couple of minutes. Disconnecting them should force the
PCM to operate in open loop and should allow you to see if the engine
runs longer. It is worth a try.

Almost at the bottom of the linked page, there is a very nice
description and test procedure for O2 sensors:
http://yarchive.net/car/oxygen_sensor.html

In a 98 explorer I have been able to disconnect one by one the MAF, TPS,
Baro Pressure, Intake air temp sensor and the engine keeps running.

Good luck Jim, you are (should be) almost there.

J Adams wrote:

> Hi Alex
>
> Here's the latest:
>
> Used the backprobe at the connector base of the PCM. Just tested the
> CMP circuit using this and the Mitchell specification 6.8VDC at idle
> and the rest below from the Autozone site:
>
> 1. With the ignition OFF, disconnect the CMP sensor. With the
> ignition ON and the engine OFF, measure the voltage between sensor
> harness connector VPWR and PWR GND terminals (refer to the
> accompanying illustration). If the reading is greater than 10.5 volts,
> the power circuit to the sensor is okay.
> 2. With the ignition OFF, install break-out box between the CMP
> sensor and the PCM. Using a Digital Volt-Ohmmeter (DVOM) set to the
> voltage function (scale set to monitor less than 5 volts), measure
> voltage between break-out box terminals 24 and 40 with the engine
> running at varying RPM. If the voltage reading varies more than 0.1
> volt, the sensor is okay.
>
> Fig. 3: CMP sensor wire harness connections for the 3-wire sensor
> VPWR - Black/White
> PWR GND - Red
> CID / CMP - Dark Blue/Orange
>
> Both tests 1 and 2 came back OK. So now I'm back to why does it run
> for a short period of time and then the injectors loose their signal
> but I still have spark. Can start it twice OK, but the third time No
> Go. Just intermittent signal to the injectors. Also hooked up the DVOM
> to the injector and voltage was present even when the engine died (so
> not the ignition switch?). The CKP is also fine, does that leave the
> PCM?
>
> I did not replace the Oxygen sensors.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:25:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
>
>>Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors:
>>
>>They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v
>>is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to
>>inject the fuel as needed.
>>
>>So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the
>>ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which
>>terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect
>>to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is
>>is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this
>>voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage
>>(think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice.
>>
>>The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that
>>the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have
>>unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good
>>electrical contact there.
>>
>>For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP,
>>CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure,
>>coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses.
>>
>>Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be
>>sure it is the culprit.
>>
>>As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have,
>>(VIN X california?), i will refer you to
>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>
>>Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are
>>very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them?
>>You can test them as per procedure outlined he
>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>
>>Good luck!
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>Hi Alex:
>>>
>>>Found this on the internet:
>>>"Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
>>>signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
>>>angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
>>>Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>>>to do with the ignition.
>>>>
>>>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>>>not for the spark.
>>>>
>>>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>>>about testing the CMP itself.
>>>
>>>As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
>>>circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
>>>testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
>>>run without one?
>>>
>>>Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
>>>mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
>>>procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
>>>includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
>>>check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
>>>circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
>>>five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
>>>and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
>>>requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
>>>behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
>>>clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
>>>Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
>>>and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
>>>before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
>>>components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
>>>how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>>>
>>>I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
>>>looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
>>>run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
>>>won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
>>>the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
>>>source, should I do these test on each injector?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>>>and off as required.
>>>
>>>That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>>>
>>>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>>>
>>>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>>>
>>>
>>>>inject.
>>>
>>>CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>>>longer for the car to die.
>>>
>>>Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
>>>affect that.....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>>>
>>>>This forum is scary:
>>>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>>>
>>>>Good luck!
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>>>
>>>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>>>car died.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>
>>>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>
>>>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>>>
>>>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>>>can find.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Alex;

Just tried quick start/off cycling. I was able to get 12 cycles and
ran KOEO at the end and the 211 code reappeared. The first 6 or 8
starts I didn't have to touch the accelerator, each start after that a
light touch was required to start. I checked the TPS for dynamic
response with a DVOM and received the voltage variation expected from
RPM change.

Apparently the problem is when something is getting warm/hot because I
went from 2 starts and letting run until it died to 12 quick
starts/off. Also tested continuity/ground of PCM and everything OK
included voltage test of each ground and all came back well under one
volt (per spec).

The 211 code requires at least 2 starts/runs before it's generated. So
the multiple start/stop cycles may have necessary for it to return.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:14:27 -0500, AS > wrote:

>I am glad the CMP was not defective (the cost thing).
>
>At this point the PCM seems to be the one telling the injectors to stop
>working, either by being defective or by getting signals that tell it to
>do so. I would check the power and grounds for it.

found this
..... where a truck would run for a while and then die. He eventually
took apart the ECM and replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECM
which fixed his problem. It is possible that the problem is related to
a leaky electrolytic cap that will charge properly when first powered
up, and then lose it's ability to store charge as it heats up. Metal
can electros have an expected service life of 5 years, and anything
past that is a gimme. I'm not saying that this IS the problem, but it
is definately something to suspect, but unfortunately if you are not
"into" electronics the only way to test for this would be to replace
the engine control module.

>Most likely you will need to replace the oxygen sensors, antrifreeze
>poisoning of O2 sensors is almost a given in your case. The antifreeze
>residues will cover the O2 sensor, not allowing the O2 in the exhaust to
>reach the sensor. I think that if this is the case, they could be
>telling the PCM that the engine is too rich, forcing the PCM to lean out
>the mixture. O2 sensors begin to work after they reach operating temp
>and this takes a couple of minutes. Disconnecting them should force the
>PCM to operate in open loop and should allow you to see if the engine
>runs longer. It is worth a try.

Wouldn't leaning or enriching the mixture be a matter of pulse
duration? I will try this, disconnection, but I might try the testing
procedures in the link you furnished first.

>Almost at the bottom of the linked page, there is a very nice
>description and test procedure for O2 sensors:
>http://yarchive.net/car/oxygen_sensor.html
>
>In a 98 explorer I have been able to disconnect one by one the MAF, TPS,
>Baro Pressure, Intake air temp sensor and the engine keeps running.
>
>Good luck Jim, you are (should be) almost there.
>
>J Adams wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex
>>
>> Here's the latest:
>>
>> Used the backprobe at the connector base of the PCM. Just tested the
>> CMP circuit using this and the Mitchell specification 6.8VDC at idle
>> and the rest below from the Autozone site:
>>
>> 1. With the ignition OFF, disconnect the CMP sensor. With the
>> ignition ON and the engine OFF, measure the voltage between sensor
>> harness connector VPWR and PWR GND terminals (refer to the
>> accompanying illustration). If the reading is greater than 10.5 volts,
>> the power circuit to the sensor is okay.
>> 2. With the ignition OFF, install break-out box between the CMP
>> sensor and the PCM. Using a Digital Volt-Ohmmeter (DVOM) set to the
>> voltage function (scale set to monitor less than 5 volts), measure
>> voltage between break-out box terminals 24 and 40 with the engine
>> running at varying RPM. If the voltage reading varies more than 0.1
>> volt, the sensor is okay.
>>
>> Fig. 3: CMP sensor wire harness connections for the 3-wire sensor
>> VPWR - Black/White
>> PWR GND - Red
>> CID / CMP - Dark Blue/Orange
>>
>> Both tests 1 and 2 came back OK. So now I'm back to why does it run
>> for a short period of time and then the injectors loose their signal
>> but I still have spark. Can start it twice OK, but the third time No
>> Go. Just intermittent signal to the injectors. Also hooked up the DVOM
>> to the injector and voltage was present even when the engine died (so
>> not the ignition switch?). The CKP is also fine, does that leave the
>> PCM?
>>
>> I did not replace the Oxygen sensors.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:25:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors:
>>>
>>>They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v
>>>is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to
>>>inject the fuel as needed.
>>>
>>>So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the
>>>ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which
>>>terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect
>>>to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is
>>>is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this
>>>voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage
>>>(think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice.
>>>
>>>The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that
>>>the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have
>>>unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good
>>>electrical contact there.
>>>
>>>For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP,
>>>CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure,
>>>coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses.
>>>
>>>Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be
>>>sure it is the culprit.
>>>
>>>As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have,
>>>(VIN X california?), i will refer you to
>>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>>
>>>Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are
>>>very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them?
>>>You can test them as per procedure outlined he
>>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>>
>>>Good luck!
>>>
>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hi Alex:
>>>>
>>>>Found this on the internet:
>>>>"Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
>>>>signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
>>>>angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
>>>>Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>>>>to do with the ignition.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>>>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>>>>not for the spark.
>>>>>
>>>>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>>>>about testing the CMP itself.
>>>>
>>>>As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
>>>>circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
>>>>testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
>>>>run without one?
>>>>
>>>>Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
>>>>mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
>>>>procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
>>>>includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
>>>>check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
>>>>circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
>>>>five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
>>>>and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
>>>>requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
>>>>behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
>>>>clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
>>>>Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
>>>>and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
>>>>before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
>>>>components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
>>>>how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>>>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>>>>
>>>>I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
>>>>looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
>>>>run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
>>>>won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
>>>>the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
>>>>source, should I do these test on each injector?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>>>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>>>>and off as required.
>>>>
>>>>That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>>>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>>>>
>>>>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>inject.
>>>>
>>>>CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>>>>longer for the car to die.
>>>>
>>>>Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
>>>>affect that.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>>>>
>>>>>This forum is scary:
>>>>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>>>>
>>>>>Good luck!
>>>>>
>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>>>>car died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>>>>can find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>>>>

Did you align the CMP properly? This could cause the code and all the
problems.

Yes, leaning or enriching the mixture is a function of the pulse length,
and normally, this should not cause the engine to stall, but we are
not dealing with a normal situation. Unplugging the O2 sensor is easy
enough.


J Adams wrote:
> Hi Alex;
>
> Just tried quick start/off cycling. I was able to get 12 cycles and
> ran KOEO at the end and the 211 code reappeared. The first 6 or 8
> starts I didn't have to touch the accelerator, each start after that a
> light touch was required to start. I checked the TPS for dynamic
> response with a DVOM and received the voltage variation expected from
> RPM change.
>
> Apparently the problem is when something is getting warm/hot because I
> went from 2 starts and letting run until it died to 12 quick
> starts/off. Also tested continuity/ground of PCM and everything OK
> included voltage test of each ground and all came back well under one
> volt (per spec).
>
> The 211 code requires at least 2 starts/runs before it's generated. So
> the multiple start/stop cycles may have necessary for it to return.
>
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:14:27 -0500, AS > wrote:
>
>
>>I am glad the CMP was not defective (the cost thing).
>>
>>At this point the PCM seems to be the one telling the injectors to stop
>>working, either by being defective or by getting signals that tell it to
>>do so. I would check the power and grounds for it.
>
>
> found this
> .... where a truck would run for a while and then die. He eventually
> took apart the ECM and replaced the electrolytic capacitors in the ECM
> which fixed his problem. It is possible that the problem is related to
> a leaky electrolytic cap that will charge properly when first powered
> up, and then lose it's ability to store charge as it heats up. Metal
> can electros have an expected service life of 5 years, and anything
> past that is a gimme. I'm not saying that this IS the problem, but it
> is definately something to suspect, but unfortunately if you are not
> "into" electronics the only way to test for this would be to replace
> the engine control module.
>
>
>>Most likely you will need to replace the oxygen sensors, antrifreeze
>>poisoning of O2 sensors is almost a given in your case. The antifreeze
>>residues will cover the O2 sensor, not allowing the O2 in the exhaust to
>>reach the sensor. I think that if this is the case, they could be
>>telling the PCM that the engine is too rich, forcing the PCM to lean out
>>the mixture. O2 sensors begin to work after they reach operating temp
>>and this takes a couple of minutes. Disconnecting them should force the
>>PCM to operate in open loop and should allow you to see if the engine
>>runs longer. It is worth a try.
>
>
> Wouldn't leaning or enriching the mixture be a matter of pulse
> duration? I will try this, disconnection, but I might try the testing
> procedures in the link you furnished first.
>
>
>>Almost at the bottom of the linked page, there is a very nice
>>description and test procedure for O2 sensors:
>>http://yarchive.net/car/oxygen_sensor.html
>>
>>In a 98 explorer I have been able to disconnect one by one the MAF, TPS,
>>Baro Pressure, Intake air temp sensor and the engine keeps running.
>>
>>Good luck Jim, you are (should be) almost there.
>>
>>J Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Alex
>>>
>>>Here's the latest:
>>>
>>>Used the backprobe at the connector base of the PCM. Just tested the
>>>CMP circuit using this and the Mitchell specification 6.8VDC at idle
>>>and the rest below from the Autozone site:
>>>
>>>1. With the ignition OFF, disconnect the CMP sensor. With the
>>>ignition ON and the engine OFF, measure the voltage between sensor
>>>harness connector VPWR and PWR GND terminals (refer to the
>>>accompanying illustration). If the reading is greater than 10.5 volts,
>>>the power circuit to the sensor is okay.
>>>2. With the ignition OFF, install break-out box between the CMP
>>>sensor and the PCM. Using a Digital Volt-Ohmmeter (DVOM) set to the
>>>voltage function (scale set to monitor less than 5 volts), measure
>>>voltage between break-out box terminals 24 and 40 with the engine
>>>running at varying RPM. If the voltage reading varies more than 0.1
>>>volt, the sensor is okay.
>>>
>>>Fig. 3: CMP sensor wire harness connections for the 3-wire sensor
>>>VPWR - Black/White
>>>PWR GND - Red
>>>CID / CMP - Dark Blue/Orange
>>>
>>>Both tests 1 and 2 came back OK. So now I'm back to why does it run
>>>for a short period of time and then the injectors loose their signal
>>>but I still have spark. Can start it twice OK, but the third time No
>>>Go. Just intermittent signal to the injectors. Also hooked up the DVOM
>>>to the injector and voltage was present even when the engine died (so
>>>not the ignition switch?). The CKP is also fine, does that leave the
>>>PCM?
>>>
>>>I did not replace the Oxygen sensors.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:25:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Lets go over the basics for the fuel injectors:
>>>>
>>>>They are 12 volt solenoid valves, when the ignition switch is on, +12v
>>>>is always applied and the ground is switched on and off by the PCM to
>>>>inject the fuel as needed.
>>>>
>>>>So, to identify the +, disconnect one of the injectors, turn the
>>>>ignition switch on and with a voltmeter or the lamp, find out which
>>>>terminal shows 12v (or makes the test light glow brighter) with respect
>>>>to ground. Once identified, you need to make sure that the 12 volts is
>>>>is there at all times when the vehicle is running or cranking. If this
>>>>voltage disappears you may have a defective relay or ignition voltage
>>>>(think switch). Measuring just one injector should suffice.
>>>>
>>>>The negative (ground side) is controlled by the PCM. That means, that
>>>>the PCM grounds need to be clean and tight. Make sure that you have
>>>>unplugged and plugged the PCM connector(s) as to guarantee good
>>>>electrical contact there.
>>>>
>>>>For the PCM to control the injectors, it needs signals from the CKP,
>>>>CMP. The PCM will use other signals like the MAF, Barometric Pressure,
>>>>coolant temp sensor, TPS etc etc to determing the length of the pulses.
>>>>
>>>>Given the difficulty in replacing the CMP, lets wait until you can be
>>>>sure it is the culprit.
>>>>
>>>>As far as testing the CMP, not being sure about which engine you have,
>>>>(VIN X california?), i will refer you to
>>>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>>>
>>>>Just out of curiosity, did you replace the oxygen sensor(s). They are
>>>>very susceptible to antifreeze. What happens if you disconnect them?
>>>>You can test them as per procedure outlined he
>>>>http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us...rInfoPages.htm
>>>>
>>>>Good luck!
>>>>
>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:18 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Alex:
>>>>>
>>>>>Found this on the internet:
>>>>>"Double check all grounds.Does it have a cam sensor as well? The PIP
>>>>>signal goes from ignition module to PCM.If there is a conflicting
>>>>>angle signal between cam and crank it will can set this code"
>>>>>Regarding the 211 code I was getting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>For the time being, I would not invest any more time in things that have
>>>>>>to do with the ignition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would concentrate on why the injectors are not getting the proper
>>>>>>juice. From what I know, the CMP is critical for the injectors though
>>>>>>not for the spark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I see you tested the circuit to the CMP but did not mention anything
>>>>>>about testing the CMP itself.
>>>>>
>>>>>As I have refined my testing procedures it has become obvious that CMP
>>>>>circuit (somehow) is the culprit. I can test the CMP and PCM, but the
>>>>>testing procedures require a backprobe. Any idea how the tests can be
>>>>>run without one?
>>>>>
>>>>>Just gained access to Mitchell on Demand and found the section you
>>>>>mentioned on engine performance. Very detailed! Especially the testing
>>>>>procedures. Also, much better wiring diagrams than my Haynes book and
>>>>>includes the location where grounds are terminated. I did a quick
>>>>>check of grounds for corrosion and didn't find any, now on to the
>>>>>circuits. It's California car that has been in Arizona for the last
>>>>>five years. I bring that after the reading the thread you posted below
>>>>>and today intend to be more thorough in testing. Pulling the CMP
>>>>>requires removing everything down to the heads, as it is located
>>>>>behind the intake manifiold and there is only about 4 or 5 inches of
>>>>>clearance. All those new gaskets ....... :-(
>>>>>Plus the CMP is the single most expensive item at a little over $400
>>>>>and the PCM is only $165. So I obviously am willing to do more testing
>>>>>before spending that on top of the money I have spent replacing good
>>>>>components. Education is never cheap and I have to admit I understand
>>>>>how the 'modern' engine works and why it was designed that way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Can you identify the positive in one of the injectors and measure the
>>>>>>voltage against ground when the car dies?
>>>>>
>>>>>I can do that, but I'm not clear about how to do it. I assume I'm
>>>>>looking for a voltage drop. I have to be careful about which tests to
>>>>>run because of the time lag to be able to restart the engine. When it
>>>>>won't restart the injectors not activating is very obvious and clearly
>>>>>the problem. At the point, now that I have injector signal as the
>>>>>source, should I do these test on each injector?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is the 12V present all the time when the ignition switch is on? Remember, the
>>>>>>injectors have the +12 on all the time, and the PCM switches the ground on
>>>>>>and off as required.
>>>>>
>>>>>That should be easy enough to determine. What would that tell me?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Temperature, MAF, throttle, pressure, etc. sensors when defective, make
>>>>>>the idle and running of the engine irregular but do not kill the engine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes the PCM controls the injector activation but it requires signals
>>>>>
>>>>>>from the CKP to know when to inject and CMP to know which cylinder to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>inject.
>>>>>
>>>>>CKP has been replaced, but not CMP.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Is the ambient temperature any lower? This could explain why it took
>>>>>>longer for the car to die.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes the temperature is lower. And I thought I had done something to
>>>>>affect that.....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I am sure you will find the problem pretty soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This forum is scary:
>>>>>>http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=159930
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>New test results including engine running.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I made some new test connectors and this improved the sensitivity.
>>>>>>>Retested all circuits pertaining to CKP/CMP/ICM/PCM for shorts/open
>>>>>>>circuit and nothing was out of tolerance or obvious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The car has also sat for 2 days while I traced circuits and had the
>>>>>>>ICM tested. I also pulled the PCM and it sat for the same period
>>>>>>>disconnected. Removed the cover of the PCM looking for obvious burns
>>>>>>>or loose connections and also found nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Today I reconnected all components with the exception of spark plug
>>>>>>>wire #2 and injector #2. Attached spark tester to #2 wire and test
>>>>>>>light to #2 injector connector and placed both where I could see both
>>>>>>>easily and clearly without moving my eyes from the drivers seat.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Started the engine and took it up to 2000 RPMs and held it steady for
>>>>>>>4 minutes (a new record), at 4 minutes there were a couple of small
>>>>>>>misses then they became more pronounced and longer. The spark tester
>>>>>>>stayed steady and the injector test light would fluctuate in
>>>>>>>conjunction with the misses, but I had to be paying very close
>>>>>>>attention to see the differences. When the stalling started the spark
>>>>>>>tester was steady and the fluctuation in became more obvious, then the
>>>>>>>car died.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Restarted car within a couple minutes of dying and it started right
>>>>>>>up. Took the RPMs up to 2000 and ran that way for 4 minutes again
>>>>>>>before the missing started, but this time the misses were a little
>>>>>>>longer and the injector test light was noticeably fluctuating with
>>>>>>>each miss, but the spark tester was steady. Then it died at 4 minutes
>>>>>>>30 seconds, same as before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tried to restart and no luck, BUT.... this time observing the spark
>>>>>>>tester and injector test light the difference was great. The spark
>>>>>>>tester was steady and the injector test light only lit intermittently
>>>>>>>and each it came the engine would catch briefly and no start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ran the KOEO and DTC came back 111, 10, 111. System pass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fuel pressure was good and engine temp sensor is new. Timing wasn't
>>>>>>>tinkered with at any time. Next step is the library and get relevant
>>>>>>>info. In light of my new testing procedure does any of this yield new
>>>>>>>insights. Even though the 211 Profile Ignition Pick-up code hasn't
>>>>>>>reappeared it still is very relevant as it has to do the communication
>>>>>>>between the CKP/ICM/CMP/PCM and the PCM controls the injector
>>>>>>>activation. The CEL has not come on either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As far pulling the CMP and having it tested I will have remove a bunch
>>>>>>>of stuff, as in all the way down to the lower intake manifold. I know
>>>>>>>I'm going to have to do that and will probably have to do it next (and
>>>>>>>soon) if nothing improves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm going the library to use the 'Professional' books to see what I
>>>>>>>can find.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:06:15 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The camshaft position sensor tells the PCM when cylinder one goes into
>>>>>>>>compression (the CKP cannot distinguish this). The camshaft pos sensor
>>>>>>>>identifies cylinder one, and then, it the PCM sends signal to the right
>>>>>>>>injector. The camshaft pos sensor is crucial for injector control.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Given the design of the coil pack, the crankshaft position sensor is
>>>>>>>>only used for ignition control and it always sends spark to two
>>>>>>>>cylinders simultaneously, one cylinder at compression and the other one
>>>>>>>>at exhaust.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Check the camshaft pos sensor, that one could be the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am glad the light is working for you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Good luck, though i think you already found your problem in the camshaft
>>>>>>>>pos sensor or the PCM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 18:47:04 -0500, AS > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The code for cylinder one leads me to believe the problem could be the
>>>>>>>>>>camshaft position sensor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi Alex
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I found out the #10 is displayed as a seperator code. Which is why I
>>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>>>10 cylinder one
>>>>>>>>>111 system pass
>>>>>>>>>thought it was odd to get 111 after getting 10. If I got 111, 10, 111,
>>>>>>>>>10 then it would indicate a cylinder #1 problem, of course I probably
>>>>>>>>>wouldn't get a 111 either by that reasoning.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Since you pointed me in the right direction. When I kept getting the
>>>>>>>>>KOEO 211 code (though only after a running engine), PIP signal, which
>>>>>>>>>would indicate the CKP. Replaced CKP and traced the wiring plus tested
>>>>>>>>>it for shorts or open circuit. I would never get a 211 code if I did
>>>>>>>>>the KOEO test then cleared the memory and reran the KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I did the spark test and it was consistent even as the car was dying.
>>>>>>>>>The injector test light was different it would miss, pulsing light
>>>>>>>>>erratic in time engine missing/stalling. The only thing controlling
>>>>>>>>>the injectors is the PCM. The camshaft sensor provides information to
>>>>>>>>>the PCM so it can timing information for the injectors and the ICM for
>>>>>>>>>spark timing. At least that's my interpretation, am I wrong on that?
>>>>>>>>>If it was the camshaft sensor would I get a consistent and steady
>>>>>>>>>spark and have the injector test light fluctuate doesn't that indicate
>>>>>>>>>the PCM is bad? Now that I'm reading this I did not test injector with
>>>>>>>>>test light and spark simultaneously.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If I get steady spark and intermittent light pulses coinciding with
>>>>>>>>>missing/stalling wouldn't that point to the PCM. It doesn't rule the
>>>>>>>>>CMS out, but wouldn't begin pointing more towards the PCM.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>By the way I've found quite a few uses for that test light with other
>>>>>>>>>circuits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I doubt the CKP is defective because you have spark and the car ran when
>>>>>>>>>>you sprayed the starting fluid.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Good luck,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>J Adams wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:09:51 -0600, "Hairy" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>That was my first guess, but after 3 fuel pumps in 8 months the Haynes
>>>>>>>>>>>book is wrong, per Ford 30-45 is the correct range. The first fuel
>>>>>>>>>>>pump was actually bad, but that's another story. Turns out per AS
>>>>>>>>>>>suggestion of using the test light on the injectors I have either a
>>>>>>>>>>>shorted wire in the CKP circuit or a bad PCM. So now I'm tracing the
>>>>>>>>>>>wires in the CKP circuit and if I don't find anything there it leaves
>>>>>>>>>>>the PCM, which I assume from my reading is how 'they' determine the
>>>>>>>>>>>PCM is bad.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>When the car was running and the injector test was hooked up when the
>>>>>>>>>>>engine started missing so did the light. If the light was missing then
>>>>>>>>>>>the problem became electrical. This is cutting off the power to the
>>>>>>>>>>>injectors and no fuel, hence the stalling. It didn't help that I was
>>>>>>>>>>>flooding it trying to restart it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>If it had not been for AS help I would throwing a grenade in the
>>>>>>>>>>>engine compartment. He was correct in refocusing on the process of
>>>>>>>>>>>electrical and fuel. So heres what happened.
>>>>>>>>>>>1) Test for spark and condition of spark
>>>>>>>>>>>2) Test for fuel delivery.
>>>>>>>>>>>3) When I sprayed starting fluid it would start (briefly)
>>>>>>>>>>>4) Listened to injector while and continued while missing started and
>>>>>>>>>>>it began dying. Heard a missing in the injector as well as the hearing
>>>>>>>>>>>the coughing and sputtering from the engine.
>>>>>>>>>>>5) Hooked up test light to the injector and light pulsed steady until
>>>>>>>>>>>missing began, then the light missed as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>****Problem is electrical in the CKP circuit or PCM is bad. As PCMs
>>>>>>>>>>>rarely ever go bad the problem is probably in the CKP circuit. Those
>>>>>>>>>>>are the only two things that control the injectors and the PCM has
>>>>>>>>>>>direct control over the injectors. So if the there is no wiring
>>>>>>>>>>>problem in the CKP circuit the only thing left is the PCM.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>BUT, today I begin the wiring harnesses inspection process, so we'll
>>>>>>>>>>>see.....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Starting to look like a fuel problem.......somehow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>New fuel pump and filter and pressure at 30psi so I gues that leaves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the injectors, what do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cleared the codes and reran KOEO test.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>According to my Haynes, pressure should be 35-45 with engine not running and
>>>>>>>>>>>>30-35 with engine running. Sounds like yours is low?? Injected engines don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>like it when pressure isn't up to snuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>dave
>>>>>>>>>>>>