Replace all tires for a flat one?

Previously in rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer, Fred W
> proclaimed :

>Capt Retardo and the Skidmarks wrote:
>
>>
>> this took all of 2 minutes to find. There's dozens of resources out
>> there that say the same thing:
>>
>>
>> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...chingtires.jsp
>>
>
>That's an interesting article but I fail to understand the actual theory
>behind their claim:
>

<snip good comments>


>It sounds to me like this theory is in the best interest of tire
>merchants or services that perform "shaving" to match the diameters.
>
>I'd be interested in some hard evidence that shows a cause and effect
>relationship of worn driveline parts and slightly mismatched tires such
>as what one would expect from wear.
>
>-Fred W

It shouldn't take much time to do some searching on the net to
substantiate the link I posted. I *do* know that I've been told by
more than one reputable technician (one of which is Pat Goss, who
hosts Goss' Garage radio show and has a segment on Motor Week),
that he *most definitely* would NOT recommend a new tire replacement
on a 4x4 unless the other three tires are almost new. He has
absolutely no interest in selling tires btw.





__________________________________________________ ________________________

People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's
safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
-Unknown
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Remove "die spammers" to email

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 19:19:30 -0500, Capt Retardo and the Skidmarks
> wrote:

>Previously in rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer, Big Bill
> proclaimed :
>
>>On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 14:13:36 -0500, Capt Retardo and the Skidmarks
> wrote:
>>
>>>Previously in rec.autos.makers.ford.explorer, Janet
> proclaimed :
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Ocean" > wrote in message
>>>>> om...
>>>>> > My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me it can't
>>>>> > be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me to
>>>>> > replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it is 4WD(I
>>>>> > know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I bought
>>>>> > this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far. Is that
>>>>> > a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What I would do is buy a new tire to match, take the spare which should
>>>>be new and put that on. This way you have two new tires on the same
>>>>axle. Then I use the other that had 15k on it for the spare.
>>>>
>>>>Janet
>>>
>>>
>>>unfortunately, the dealer is correct. In a 4wd system, *all* tires
>>>must be replaced. The uneven tread depth that a new tire would
>>>can really mess up your 4x4 drive train.
>>>
>>>If you never put the vehicle in 4x4 then it isn't an issue.
>>
>>Nope.
>>The differential will take up any such minor differences in tire
>>circunference.
>>And since 4x4 should only be used when the tires can slip anyway,
>>that's *really* not true.
>
>
>this took all of 2 minutes to find. There's dozens of resources out
>there that say the same thing:
>
>
>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...chingtires.jsp

Hmmm...
I wonder what those differentials are there for?
Tirerack, in case eyou missed it, sells tires. You don't think thety
may have an ulterior motive, do you? Nah, couldn't be.

Differentials are there for just such a purpose.
We hardly ever drrive in a straight line, even on straight stretches
of road. Check your own steereing wheel as you drive; it's constantly
moving, making small adjustments, which makes the car turn. This makes
the tires take different tracks, making them turn at different rates.
That's why the differentials are there.

4X4 should not be used when the tires can't slip.
Even lockers (which, BTW, lock not when power is applied, but when
there's slippage betweent the tires on the same end).
--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:

>
>"Big Bill" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>>
>> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
>> >> . com...
>> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me it
>can't
>> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me to
>> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it is
>4WD(I
>> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I bought
>> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far. Is
>that
>> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized and
>brand
>> >of
>> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different sized
>> >tires
>> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
>> >(clutches)
>> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
>> >>
>> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor enough
>> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff locked,
>> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
>> >> >
>> >
>> >BULL****!
>> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
>> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input as to
>> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are locked
>and
>> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
>>
>> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
>> locked?
>> Use a little common sense.
>
>Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
>That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.

Your tires slip with 1/4 throttle?
>
>If you are going to correct someone you really ought to understand what the
>hell you are talking about...

Why would the diff need to lock at such low power? Do you oil your
tires?

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
> >> >> . com...
> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me it
> >can't
> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me to
> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it is
> >4WD(I
> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I
bought
> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far. Is
> >that
> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized and
> >brand
> >> >of
> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different
sized
> >> >tires
> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
> >> >(clutches)
> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
> >> >>
> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor
enough
> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
locked,
> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >BULL****!
> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input as
to
> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are
locked
> >and
> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
> >>
> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
> >> locked?
> >> Use a little common sense.
> >
> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>
> Your tires slip with 1/4 throttle?
> >
> >If you are going to correct someone you really ought to understand what
the
> >hell you are talking about...
>
> Why would the diff need to lock at such low power? Do you oil your
> tires?

Don't be a blockhead, they do not LOCK from slippage, they lock from
Torque.... Duh!

Stop by I'll demonstrate it to you...


Here I'll repost this since you seam incapable of following the thread.

The most common limited slip differentials found in performance
cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch type
differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the unit at
all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there is
slippage.

Limited Slips:
(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones and/or
gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a dual
power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power is
transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the conventional
manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the differential
case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of "clutch
preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load is
applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider gears
and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in friction
provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the side
gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to the
differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even power
to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no traction
available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that can be
transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch preload"
will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the clutches
during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with traction.
Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is accelerated.
Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short wheelbase
vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally higher than
on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel slippage.
Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
operation.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html

I realize your being stuck in this funk may be genetic, pun intended, but
please do try to follow along.


>
> --
> Bill Funk
> Change "g" to "a"

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:26:59 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:

>
>"AZGuy" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> >> .. .
>> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
>> >> >> . com...
>> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me it
>> >can't
>> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me to
>> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it is
>> >4WD(I
>> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I
>bought
>> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far. Is
>> >that
>> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized and
>> >brand
>> >> >of
>> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different
>sized
>> >> >tires
>> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
>> >> >(clutches)
>> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor
>enough
>> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
>locked,
>> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >BULL****!
>> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
>> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input as
>to
>> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are
>locked
>> >and
>> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
>> >>
>> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
>> >> locked?
>> >> Use a little common sense.
>> >
>> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
>> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>> >
>>
>> Please explain the mechanism that would cause this. On pavement, 1/4
>> throttle won't cause any difference in tire slip between the two
>> tires. No differential (between sides) slip = no lockup in any
>> "Locking axle" I've driven. So how do you figure they lock up??
>>
>
>Do you have any clue how the clutch pack in a factory ford "locking" rear
>end works, or even a conventional mechanical Detroit locker? Cause you
>question doesn't indicate that you do...
>
>Ford sells a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential as a locking
>differential, although it is not a true locker. They do not offer a true
>locker, you would have to install or have that installed yourself. So if
>you order you truck from Ford with a "locking differential", you really have
>a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential.
>
>A conventional open differential sends equal amounts of torque to both axle
>shafts. If one wheel spins because of lost traction, it is sustaining zero
>engine torque, so zero engine torque is also going to the wheel with
>traction. The most common limited slip differentials found in performance
>cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch type
>differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the unit at
>all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there is
>slippage.
>
>Limited Slips:
>(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones and/or
>gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a dual
>power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power is
>transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the conventional
>manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the differential
>case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of "clutch
>preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load is
>applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider gears
>and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in friction
>provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the side
>gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to the
>differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even power
>to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no traction
>available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that can be
>transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
>friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch preload"
>will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the clutches
>during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
>chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with traction.
>Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is accelerated.
>Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short wheelbase
>vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally higher than
>on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel slippage.
>Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
>operation.
>
>http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html

But you didn't answer the question.
Why would a 1/4 throttle accelleration cause your tires to slip?
I know I understand how diffs work; I'm just not sure why *your* diffs
lock under 1/4 throttle accelleration on pavement.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:26:59 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"AZGuy" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >> >> .. .
> >> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> . com...
> >> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me
it
> >> >can't
> >> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me
to
> >> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it
is
> >> >4WD(I
> >> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I
> >bought
> >> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far.
Is
> >> >that
> >> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized
and
> >> >brand
> >> >> >of
> >> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different
> >sized
> >> >> >tires
> >> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
> >> >> >(clutches)
> >> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor
> >enough
> >> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
> >locked,
> >> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >BULL****!
> >> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
> >> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input
as
> >to
> >> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are
> >locked
> >> >and
> >> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
> >> >>
> >> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
> >> >> locked?
> >> >> Use a little common sense.
> >> >
> >> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
> >> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Please explain the mechanism that would cause this. On pavement, 1/4
> >> throttle won't cause any difference in tire slip between the two
> >> tires. No differential (between sides) slip = no lockup in any
> >> "Locking axle" I've driven. So how do you figure they lock up??
> >>
> >
> >Do you have any clue how the clutch pack in a factory ford "locking" rear
> >end works, or even a conventional mechanical Detroit locker? Cause you
> >question doesn't indicate that you do...
> >
> >Ford sells a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential as a locking
> >differential, although it is not a true locker. They do not offer a true
> >locker, you would have to install or have that installed yourself. So if
> >you order you truck from Ford with a "locking differential", you really
have
> >a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential.
> >
> >A conventional open differential sends equal amounts of torque to both
axle
> >shafts. If one wheel spins because of lost traction, it is sustaining
zero
> >engine torque, so zero engine torque is also going to the wheel with
> >traction. The most common limited slip differentials found in
performance
> >cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch type
> >differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the unit
at
> >all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there is
> >slippage.
> >
> >Limited Slips:
> >(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones
and/or
> >gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a
dual
> >power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power is
> >transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the
conventional
> >manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the differential
> >case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of
"clutch
> >preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load is
> >applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider
gears
> >and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in
friction
> >provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the
side
> >gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to the
> >differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even
power
> >to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no
traction
> >available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that can
be
> >transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
> >friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch
preload"
> >will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the clutches
> >during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
> >chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with traction.
> >Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is
accelerated.
> >Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short
wheelbase
> >vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally higher
than
> >on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel slippage.
> >Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
> >operation.
> >
> >http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html
>
> But you didn't answer the question.
> Why would a 1/4 throttle accelleration cause your tires to slip?
> I know I understand how diffs work; I'm just not sure why *your* diffs
> lock under 1/4 throttle accelleration on pavement.
>

Just because you have a reading comprehension problem DOES Not mean I don't
know what I am talking about or how to explain it...

Generally every time you take off with more than 1/4 throttle...
That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.


The key here is "more than 1/4 throttle". Duh...




> --
> Bill Funk
> Change "g" to "a"

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:27:18 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:

>
>"Big Bill" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:26:59 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"AZGuy" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> >> .. .
>> >> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> >> >> .. .
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
>> >> >> >> . com...
>> >> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me
>it
>> >> >can't
>> >> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me
>to
>> >> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it
>is
>> >> >4WD(I
>> >> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I
>> >bought
>> >> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far.
>Is
>> >> >that
>> >> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized
>and
>> >> >brand
>> >> >> >of
>> >> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different
>> >sized
>> >> >> >tires
>> >> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
>> >> >> >(clutches)
>> >> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor
>> >enough
>> >> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
>> >locked,
>> >> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >BULL****!
>> >> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
>> >> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input
>as
>> >to
>> >> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are
>> >locked
>> >> >and
>> >> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
>> >> >> locked?
>> >> >> Use a little common sense.
>> >> >
>> >> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
>> >> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Please explain the mechanism that would cause this. On pavement, 1/4
>> >> throttle won't cause any difference in tire slip between the two
>> >> tires. No differential (between sides) slip = no lockup in any
>> >> "Locking axle" I've driven. So how do you figure they lock up??
>> >>
>> >
>> >Do you have any clue how the clutch pack in a factory ford "locking" rear
>> >end works, or even a conventional mechanical Detroit locker? Cause you
>> >question doesn't indicate that you do...
>> >
>> >Ford sells a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential as a locking
>> >differential, although it is not a true locker. They do not offer a true
>> >locker, you would have to install or have that installed yourself. So if
>> >you order you truck from Ford with a "locking differential", you really
>have
>> >a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential.
>> >
>> >A conventional open differential sends equal amounts of torque to both
>axle
>> >shafts. If one wheel spins because of lost traction, it is sustaining
>zero
>> >engine torque, so zero engine torque is also going to the wheel with
>> >traction. The most common limited slip differentials found in
>performance
>> >cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch type
>> >differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the unit
>at
>> >all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there is
>> >slippage.
>> >
>> >Limited Slips:
>> >(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones
>and/or
>> >gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a
>dual
>> >power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power is
>> >transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the
>conventional
>> >manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the differential
>> >case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of
>"clutch
>> >preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load is
>> >applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider
>gears
>> >and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in
>friction
>> >provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the
>side
>> >gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to the
>> >differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even
>power
>> >to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no
>traction
>> >available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that can
>be
>> >transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
>> >friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch
>preload"
>> >will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the clutches
>> >during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
>> >chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with traction.
>> >Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is
>accelerated.
>> >Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short
>wheelbase
>> >vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally higher
>than
>> >on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel slippage.
>> >Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
>> >operation.
>> >
>> >http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html
>>
>> But you didn't answer the question.
>> Why would a 1/4 throttle accelleration cause your tires to slip?
>> I know I understand how diffs work; I'm just not sure why *your* diffs
>> lock under 1/4 throttle accelleration on pavement.
>>
>
>Just because you have a reading comprehension problem DOES Not mean I don't
>know what I am talking about or how to explain it...
>
>Generally every time you take off with more than 1/4 throttle...
>That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>
>
>The key here is "more than 1/4 throttle". Duh...
>
>
>

I understand exactly how the different types of differentials work.
You have not explained in anyway why a locking diff would "lock" under
conditions that do not cause one of the wheels to slip relative to the
other. If you can't answer that just say so. Your saying "..it
locks.." is not an explanation of why you think it locks. There is
zero reason for it to lock (or for the clutch pack in a LSD to
"engage") under the conditions being discussed, whether at 1/5
throttle or 2/3rds throttle) so I'd like to know what makes you think
it would lock. I've taken off many times in Chevy's with Eaton
lockers on pavement at full throttle without the diff locking.
Conversely, the same truck on loose gravel might lock at less then
quarter throttle if started on loose gravel while turning.
--
Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:

"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the
establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . .
Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of
the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House
of Representatives, August 17, 1789

"AZGuy" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:27:18 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:26:59 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"AZGuy" > wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >> >> .. .
> >> >> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> .. .
> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" >
wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> >> . com...
> >> >> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told
me
> >it
> >> >> >can't
> >> >> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked
me
> >to
> >> >> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause
it
> >is
> >> >> >4WD(I
> >> >> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT.
I
> >> >bought
> >> >> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so
far.
> >Is
> >> >> >that
> >> >> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same
sized
> >and
> >> >> >brand
> >> >> >> >of
> >> >> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because,
different
> >> >sized
> >> >> >> >tires
> >> >> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking
assembly
> >> >> >> >(clutches)
> >> >> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is
poor
> >> >enough
> >> >> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
> >> >locked,
> >> >> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >BULL****!
> >> >> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They
lock
> >> >> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO
input
> >as
> >> >to
> >> >> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels
are
> >> >locked
> >> >> >and
> >> >> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
> >> >> >> locked?
> >> >> >> Use a little common sense.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
> >> >> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Please explain the mechanism that would cause this. On pavement,
1/4
> >> >> throttle won't cause any difference in tire slip between the two
> >> >> tires. No differential (between sides) slip = no lockup in any
> >> >> "Locking axle" I've driven. So how do you figure they lock up??
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Do you have any clue how the clutch pack in a factory ford "locking"
rear
> >> >end works, or even a conventional mechanical Detroit locker? Cause
you
> >> >question doesn't indicate that you do...
> >> >
> >> >Ford sells a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential as a
locking
> >> >differential, although it is not a true locker. They do not offer a
true
> >> >locker, you would have to install or have that installed yourself. So
if
> >> >you order you truck from Ford with a "locking differential", you
really
> >have
> >> >a Trac-Lok clutch-plate limited slip differential.
> >> >
> >> >A conventional open differential sends equal amounts of torque to both
> >axle
> >> >shafts. If one wheel spins because of lost traction, it is sustaining
> >zero
> >> >engine torque, so zero engine torque is also going to the wheel with
> >> >traction. The most common limited slip differentials found in
> >performance
> >> >cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch
type
> >> >differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the
unit
> >at
> >> >all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there
is
> >> >slippage.
> >> >
> >> >Limited Slips:
> >> >(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones
> >and/or
> >> >gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a
> >dual
> >> >power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power
is
> >> >transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the
> >conventional
> >> >manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the
differential
> >> >case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of
> >"clutch
> >> >preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load
is
> >> >applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider
> >gears
> >> >and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in
> >friction
> >> >provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the
> >side
> >> >gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to
the
> >> >differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even
> >power
> >> >to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no
> >traction
> >> >available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that
can
> >be
> >> >transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
> >> >friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch
> >preload"
> >> >will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the
clutches
> >> >during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
> >> >chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with
traction.
> >> >Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is
> >accelerated.
> >> >Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short
> >wheelbase
> >> >vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally
higher
> >than
> >> >on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel
slippage.
> >> >Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
> >> >operation.
> >> >
> >> >http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html
> >>
> >> But you didn't answer the question.
> >> Why would a 1/4 throttle accelleration cause your tires to slip?
> >> I know I understand how diffs work; I'm just not sure why *your* diffs
> >> lock under 1/4 throttle accelleration on pavement.
> >>
> >
> >Just because you have a reading comprehension problem DOES Not mean I
don't
> >know what I am talking about or how to explain it...
> >
> >Generally every time you take off with more than 1/4 throttle...
> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
> >
> >
> >The key here is "more than 1/4 throttle". Duh...
> >
> >
> >
>
> I understand exactly how the different types of differentials work.
> You have not explained in anyway why a locking diff would "lock" under
> conditions that do not cause one of the wheels to slip relative to the
> other. If you can't answer that just say so. Your saying "..it
> locks.." is not an explanation of why you think it locks. There is
> zero reason for it to lock (or for the clutch pack in a LSD to
> "engage") under the conditions being discussed, whether at 1/5
> throttle or 2/3rds throttle) so I'd like to know what makes you think
> it would lock. I've taken off many times in Chevy's with Eaton
> lockers on pavement at full throttle without the diff locking.
> Conversely, the same truck on loose gravel might lock at less then
> quarter throttle if started on loose gravel while turning.
> --
> Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts:
>
> "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the
> establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . .
> Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of
> the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order
> to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House
> of Representatives, August 17, 1789


What the hell makes you think it is not locked???
Unless you are spinning one tire on pavement and not the other, at full
throttle without the differential locking, in which case you are describing
that your limited slip differential is not functioning properly.
Just because you are not losing traction (spinning your tire(s)) ABSOLUTELY
DOES NOT INDICATE THAT THE LOCKING MECHANISM IS NOT LOCKED or that you are
not applying power to both axels!!! On the other hand it may simply be that
you don't have enough power to spin either of your tires on dry pavement,
let alone both of them...

The whole idea is for the locking differential to drive both axels and avoid
one or the other of them from having to slip...

The limited slip information I posted in my other posts was not what I said
it was on a web page I have nothing to do with...
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html
in the Limited Slip section, I included the link so you can read it
yourself...

It is real easy for you to check yourself provided you have access to a
working limited slip differential. If you jack both wheels off the ground
and spin one axel one way the other axel will spin that way too! As matter
of fact, if you ask a friend to hold one axel while you spin the other they
will not move separately. this is the no-load no-slippage PRELOAD that is
always being applied. This connection between the two axels never gets any
less than in that neutral state, unless enough torque is applied to break
the grip of the clutch. When torque is applied the clutch grips harder yet.

FYI:
If you don't know it, a standard OPEN differential if jacked up and one axel
is spun, the other axel will spin the opposite direction.

If you still can't understand it take a class.

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:47:48 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:

>
>"Big Bill" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:19:34 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >> On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 06:52:06 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> >> .. .
>> >> >> On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 23:28:24 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Ocean" > wrote in message
>> >> >> . com...
>> >> >> >> My tire (rear/passenger side) got flat and the dealer told me it
>> >can't
>> >> >> >> be fixed for a safty reason. That's ok. However, he asked me to
>> >> >> >> replace all tires in order to tune ABS and so forth cause it is
>> >4WD(I
>> >> >> >> know only a little about car). BTW, the car is a 2003 XLT. I
>bought
>> >> >> >> this car last year and it is only less than 15K miles so far. Is
>> >that
>> >> >> >> a reasonable solution? I appreciate your suggestions!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >If you have a locking rear end, you should have the same sized and
>> >brand
>> >> >of
>> >> >> >tires with similar tread wear on both sides. Because, different
>sized
>> >> >tires
>> >> >> >will greatly increase the wear and tear on your locking assembly
>> >> >(clutches)
>> >> >> >because the tires are unable to spin at the same rate.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A locking rear end should not be locked unless traction is poor
>enough
>> >> >> to allow the tires to slip. This means that even with the diff
>locked,
>> >> >> a minor difference in tire circumference won't matter.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >BULL****!
>> >> >Obviously you have Zero experience with locking rearends. They lock
>> >> >according to the TORQUE being applied to them. They have ZERO input as
>to
>> >> >the condition of the traction!!! You stomp the gas both axels are
>locked
>> >and
>> >> >driven, regardless of traction conditions. DUH!
>> >>
>> >> And, pray tell, on pavement, how much time does your locker spend
>> >> locked?
>> >> Use a little common sense.
>> >
>> >Generally every time you take off with more then 1/4 throttle...
>> >That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>>
>> Your tires slip with 1/4 throttle?
>> >
>> >If you are going to correct someone you really ought to understand what
>the
>> >hell you are talking about...
>>
>> Why would the diff need to lock at such low power? Do you oil your
>> tires?
>
>Don't be a blockhead, they do not LOCK from slippage, they lock from
>Torque.... Duh!
>
>Stop by I'll demonstrate it to you...
>
>
>Here I'll repost this since you seam incapable of following the thread.
>
>The most common limited slip differentials found in performance
>cars and trucks are of the cone or clutch type. Many cone or clutch type
>differentials use preload springs to help keep some tension on the unit at
>all times. There is torque applied to both axels, not just when there is
>slippage.
>
>Limited Slips:
>(LSD's) come in a variety of designs. Most use friction plates, cones and/or
>gears to reduce slippage between each of the tires. these units have a dual
>power path from the differential case to the axle shafts. some power is
>transmitted through the spider gears to the side gears in the conventional
>manner. The remainder is transmitted by friction between the differential
>case and the clutch plates and the side gears. A certain amount of "clutch
>preload" is built into the unit in a static condition. Then, as load is
>applied to the differential, the separation forces between the spider gears
>and the side gears increases this clutch loading. This increase in friction
>provides for a good positive power flow from the case directly to the side
>gears. When traction is available to both wheels, the power going to the
>differential causes the plates to bind tightly together, giving even power
>to both wheels. However, in a situation where there is little or no traction
>available to either one wheel or the other, the amount of power that can be
>transmitted to the other wheel which has traction is dependent on the
>friction or "preload" in the clutch plates. High levels of "clutch preload"
>will result in good torque transfer but some chattering of the clutches
>during cornering may occur. Lower levels of preload results in minimal
>chatter but reduced levels of torque transfer to the wheel with traction.
>Because LSD's restrict true differential action, tire wear is accelerated.
>Changes in vehicle handling may also occur, particularly in short wheelbase
>vehicles. Wear rates on limited slip differentials are generally higher than
>on other types due to the reliance on friction to reduce wheel slippage.
>Also, special lubricants may be required to minimize rough and noisy
>operation.
>
>http://www.therangerstation.com/tech...erComparo.html
>
>I realize your being stuck in this funk may be genetic, pun intended, but
>please do try to follow along.

OK, put on your thinking cap here...
If the diff is locked, how does the diff allow differential speeds
betweent he wheels on turns under power?
Answer: they aren't locked.
So then, how do these things actually work? Answer: they sense the
slippage beyond a preset amount,and then lock. This doesn't happen
under normal accelleration.
--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:27:18 GMT, "351CJ" > wrote:

>> But you didn't answer the question.
>> Why would a 1/4 throttle accelleration cause your tires to slip?
>> I know I understand how diffs work; I'm just not sure why *your* diffs
>> lock under 1/4 throttle accelleration on pavement.
>>
>
>Just because you have a reading comprehension problem DOES Not mean I don't
>know what I am talking about or how to explain it...
>
>Generally every time you take off with more than 1/4 throttle...
>That for many drivers is every time the start from a stand still.
>
>
>The key here is "more than 1/4 throttle". Duh...

I have to admit that what you're saying defys my knowledge of how
diffs work, and the nortmal physics of vehicle accelleration.
Why does accelleration of *more than* 1/4 throttle lock the diff?
What's slipping?
Do your vehicles all spin tires at 1/2 throttle accelleration?

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"