'93 Grand Voyager crank, no start

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
> > Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I
do not own?
>
> You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who
bore and
> raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)

I've been scanning Ebay. $20 just buys the owner's manual most
times. I have yet to see a FSM. I have seen a powertrain FSM for
a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on eBay
but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.

Hemmings, 3/4's, might be good.

It's around $65 for a '94 Voyager. Not too bad for brand new,
including shipping. If Hemmings has it for $45, that's fine.

Last time I called the dealer, he would NOT EVEN ORDER the FSM.
Said to use the 800 number as they do! And I had a discount
coupon too, rats.

Couple years ago, someone was selling CD's of the FSM using PDF
files, but that's good and bad. I guess he was stopped because of
copyright laws on eBay. What was good, you could print out the
pages and only get those dirty. What was bad was the lack of
index but there's software now that will index PDF files, even
the captions of the pictures.

"Treeline" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I
> do not own?
> >
> > You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who
> bore and
> > raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)
>
> I've been scanning Ebay. $20 just buys the owner's manual most
> times. I have yet to see a FSM.

I gave you a URL of one on Ebay a week ago. Nobody bought it so
the seller relisted it. Here it is again:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=7937042402

Keep in mind that we are so close to Christmas that sales of most
stuff like this on Ebay are dropping off. Most experienced Ebay
sellers know this and have stopped listing. Listing will pick up again
the first few weeks of January.

> I have seen a powertrain FSM for
> a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
> have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on eBay
> but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.
>

Uh, your post said 1993, not 1994.

You need to search for the following:

"1994 Chrysler manual"
"94 chrysler manual"
"1994 dodge manual"
"94 dodge manual"

I didn't see one when I just checked.

The 1993 manual may be close enough to get you by, and if you later buy a
1994
one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

Besides the actual manual there are a number of subsidary diagnostics books
like the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WD1V

And yes, if you need something fast, you can get one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tego ry=34218

I suspect these are illegal copies of the dealership CD's.

> Hemmings, 3/4's, might be good.
>
> It's around $65 for a '94 Voyager. Not too bad for brand new,
> including shipping. If Hemmings has it for $45, that's fine.
>

Ebay is really the cheapest place for finding a manual, but you will have to
keep
checking it. It took me about 4 months to collect all 9 model specific
Chrysler manuals
associated with my 1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had
to buy a group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group,
I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.

But I ended up spending under $200 for the entire set. Worth every penny.

The problem with Hemmings is that the people selling things there are in
it to make a living doing it. So regardless of what they get their manuals
for - often a few dollars a manual - they sell them for about 70% of the
cost of a new one. It's just low enough so that if you need a set of
manuals
in a hurry that your going to go to the Hemmings sellers before you go
to the factory, but it's not a deal to write home about.

Ebay is where individuals like you and I go to sell the manuals that we
bought to work on the car that we just sold off or had towed to the
junkyard.
As a result we are quite happy to get 25% of the cost of a new manual -
which is higher than any Hemmings manual seller would ever pay us.
The downside is you have to wait. This is one area where it really really
pays to buy the stuff in advance of when you need it. When your car
is sitting there broken and needs fixing, the higher-priced places that
can give it to you immediately are the only places to go.

> Last time I called the dealer, he would NOT EVEN ORDER the FSM.
> Said to use the 800 number as they do! And I had a discount
> coupon too, rats.
>
> Couple years ago, someone was selling CD's of the FSM using PDF
> files, but that's good and bad. I guess he was stopped because of
> copyright laws on eBay.

I don't think so. I know that guy I complained about him a couple times
myself, because he was literally flooding Ebay with hundreds of variations
of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30 manuals on it and
he would just advertise it 30 different ways. I think that what did him in
was he was way too greedy - wanting $29.95 for what was obviously
a pirated dealership CD - and nobody bought his stuff. He must have run
up a huge listing bill with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely
didn't bother booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.

The people pirating the CD manuals nowadays on Ebay are much more
low key, and they aren't anywhere near as greedy, so I think the Ebay
community tolerates them as an unavoidable evil, I know I do.

Ted

"Treeline" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I
> do not own?
> >
> > You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who
> bore and
> > raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)
>
> I've been scanning Ebay. $20 just buys the owner's manual most
> times. I have yet to see a FSM.

I gave you a URL of one on Ebay a week ago. Nobody bought it so
the seller relisted it. Here it is again:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=7937042402

Keep in mind that we are so close to Christmas that sales of most
stuff like this on Ebay are dropping off. Most experienced Ebay
sellers know this and have stopped listing. Listing will pick up again
the first few weeks of January.

> I have seen a powertrain FSM for
> a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
> have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on eBay
> but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.
>

Uh, your post said 1993, not 1994.

You need to search for the following:

"1994 Chrysler manual"
"94 chrysler manual"
"1994 dodge manual"
"94 dodge manual"

I didn't see one when I just checked.

The 1993 manual may be close enough to get you by, and if you later buy a
1994
one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

Besides the actual manual there are a number of subsidary diagnostics books
like the following:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WD1V

And yes, if you need something fast, you can get one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tego ry=34218

I suspect these are illegal copies of the dealership CD's.

> Hemmings, 3/4's, might be good.
>
> It's around $65 for a '94 Voyager. Not too bad for brand new,
> including shipping. If Hemmings has it for $45, that's fine.
>

Ebay is really the cheapest place for finding a manual, but you will have to
keep
checking it. It took me about 4 months to collect all 9 model specific
Chrysler manuals
associated with my 1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had
to buy a group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group,
I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.

But I ended up spending under $200 for the entire set. Worth every penny.

The problem with Hemmings is that the people selling things there are in
it to make a living doing it. So regardless of what they get their manuals
for - often a few dollars a manual - they sell them for about 70% of the
cost of a new one. It's just low enough so that if you need a set of
manuals
in a hurry that your going to go to the Hemmings sellers before you go
to the factory, but it's not a deal to write home about.

Ebay is where individuals like you and I go to sell the manuals that we
bought to work on the car that we just sold off or had towed to the
junkyard.
As a result we are quite happy to get 25% of the cost of a new manual -
which is higher than any Hemmings manual seller would ever pay us.
The downside is you have to wait. This is one area where it really really
pays to buy the stuff in advance of when you need it. When your car
is sitting there broken and needs fixing, the higher-priced places that
can give it to you immediately are the only places to go.

> Last time I called the dealer, he would NOT EVEN ORDER the FSM.
> Said to use the 800 number as they do! And I had a discount
> coupon too, rats.
>
> Couple years ago, someone was selling CD's of the FSM using PDF
> files, but that's good and bad. I guess he was stopped because of
> copyright laws on eBay.

I don't think so. I know that guy I complained about him a couple times
myself, because he was literally flooding Ebay with hundreds of variations
of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30 manuals on it and
he would just advertise it 30 different ways. I think that what did him in
was he was way too greedy - wanting $29.95 for what was obviously
a pirated dealership CD - and nobody bought his stuff. He must have run
up a huge listing bill with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely
didn't bother booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.

The people pirating the CD manuals nowadays on Ebay are much more
low key, and they aren't anywhere near as greedy, so I think the Ebay
community tolerates them as an unavoidable evil, I know I do.

Ted

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...


> > I have seen a powertrain FSM for
> > a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
> > have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on
eBay
> > but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.
> >
>
> Uh, your post said 1993, not 1994.
>
> You need to search for the following:
>
> "1994 Chrysler manual"
> "94 chrysler manual"
> "1994 dodge manual"
> "94 dodge manual"
>
> I didn't see one when I just checked.
>
> The 1993 manual may be close enough to get you by, and if you
later buy a 1994 one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

I'm not the original poster. I'm looking for a 1994 Plymouth
Voyager. I did find a 1993-1994 Dodge Grand Caravan, thanks to
your URL. Tempted but it may not have my smaller engine, probably
does. Probably best to get exactly my model.


> Besides the actual manual there are a number of subsidary
diagnostics books
> like the following:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...wItem&rd=1&ite
m=7902357348&category=34217&sspagename=WD1V
>
> And yes, if you need something fast, you can get one of these:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...wItem&rd=1&ite
m=7936224125&category=34218

Again, thanks. The Diagnostic Manual for $40 with shipping looks
very tempting for diagnosing problems. I did not know one
existed. I guess they are a lot of IFs Then do the following? I
have never even seen one. Now I know. Very helpful info you
provide, Ted.

Factory Service Manual for Body Diagnostic Procedures. I have to
ask, what are body diagnostic procedures? Is that everything that
is not engine or electrical but the physical body, like shocks,
doors, windows and so forth?


> Ebay is really the cheapest place for finding a manual, but you
will have to keep checking it. It took me about 4 months to
collect all 9 model specific Chrysler manuals associated with my
1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had to buy a
group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group, I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.<

How do you ship these manuals to your buyers? Do you use USPS and
the book rate or FedEx or UPS? Just wondering.


> I don't think so. I know that guy I complained about him a
couple times
> myself, because he was literally flooding Ebay with hundreds of
variations of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30
manuals on it and he would just advertise it 30 different ways.
I think that what did him in was he was way too greedy - wanting
$29.95 for what was obviously a pirated dealership CD - and
nobody bought his stuff. He must have run up a huge listing bill
with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely didn't bother
booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.
>
> The people pirating the CD manuals nowadays on Ebay are much
more
> low key, and they aren't anywhere near as greedy, so I think
the Ebay
> community tolerates them as an unavoidable evil, I know I do.
>
> Ted

Interesting. I remember that guy. I can't get over the last
dealer I called not even wanting to go to the trouble of ordering
the FSM for me. I thought that for at least 10 years the dealer
had to provide for the owner of a car so 1994 just makes it. In
fact, the dealer no longer has the OEM windshield wipers. They
sell only the $10 Trimline? series which is probably not quite as
good as Trico Exact Fit. I wanted to try the official high-priced
dealer windshield wiper because I read in Consumer Reports and
heard that the original OEM was better than the third-party.
Guess I'll never know now.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...


> > I have seen a powertrain FSM for
> > a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
> > have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on
eBay
> > but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.
> >
>
> Uh, your post said 1993, not 1994.
>
> You need to search for the following:
>
> "1994 Chrysler manual"
> "94 chrysler manual"
> "1994 dodge manual"
> "94 dodge manual"
>
> I didn't see one when I just checked.
>
> The 1993 manual may be close enough to get you by, and if you
later buy a 1994 one you can resell the 1993 on Ebay.

I'm not the original poster. I'm looking for a 1994 Plymouth
Voyager. I did find a 1993-1994 Dodge Grand Caravan, thanks to
your URL. Tempted but it may not have my smaller engine, probably
does. Probably best to get exactly my model.


> Besides the actual manual there are a number of subsidary
diagnostics books
> like the following:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...wItem&rd=1&ite
m=7902357348&category=34217&sspagename=WD1V
>
> And yes, if you need something fast, you can get one of these:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...wItem&rd=1&ite
m=7936224125&category=34218

Again, thanks. The Diagnostic Manual for $40 with shipping looks
very tempting for diagnosing problems. I did not know one
existed. I guess they are a lot of IFs Then do the following? I
have never even seen one. Now I know. Very helpful info you
provide, Ted.

Factory Service Manual for Body Diagnostic Procedures. I have to
ask, what are body diagnostic procedures? Is that everything that
is not engine or electrical but the physical body, like shocks,
doors, windows and so forth?


> Ebay is really the cheapest place for finding a manual, but you
will have to keep checking it. It took me about 4 months to
collect all 9 model specific Chrysler manuals associated with my
1995 T&C when I bought it. And in some cases I had to buy a
group of 4-5 manuals to get 1 of the ones I wanted out of the
group, I just resold the ones I didn't want back on Ebay.<

How do you ship these manuals to your buyers? Do you use USPS and
the book rate or FedEx or UPS? Just wondering.


> I don't think so. I know that guy I complained about him a
couple times
> myself, because he was literally flooding Ebay with hundreds of
variations of manual posts. I think he had a CD with about 30
manuals on it and he would just advertise it 30 different ways.
I think that what did him in was he was way too greedy - wanting
$29.95 for what was obviously a pirated dealership CD - and
nobody bought his stuff. He must have run up a huge listing bill
with Ebay and then not paid it, because Ebay surely didn't bother
booting him due to my or anyone elses' complaints.
>
> The people pirating the CD manuals nowadays on Ebay are much
more
> low key, and they aren't anywhere near as greedy, so I think
the Ebay
> community tolerates them as an unavoidable evil, I know I do.
>
> Ted

Interesting. I remember that guy. I can't get over the last
dealer I called not even wanting to go to the trouble of ordering
the FSM for me. I thought that for at least 10 years the dealer
had to provide for the owner of a car so 1994 just makes it. In
fact, the dealer no longer has the OEM windshield wipers. They
sell only the $10 Trimline? series which is probably not quite as
good as Trico Exact Fit. I wanted to try the official high-priced
dealer windshield wiper because I read in Consumer Reports and
heard that the original OEM was better than the third-party.
Guess I'll never know now.

Your comments, Ted, led me to eBay and to Chrysler where I find
many manuals cheaper than on eBay except for the shop manual. But
the 1994-1995 for the Voyager body diagnostic manual was only $13
(which is okay for my 1994, the eBay's 1993-1994 for $35 is what
the 1993 owner would have to get) and owner's manuals were $10
(eBay usually has these at least $10 or more so the same price or
a little more) and the "Superbook" for the notorious tranny A604
or 41TE is either $11 for my year or $17 for all years 1989-1998.
And one can even order the CD for $90, the shop manual. I was
suprised to see that it is offered for sale. And $41 more than
the hard copy, not bad.

And I was right about the 10 years. 1994 is the last year these
manuals, including also the Technical Service Bulletins and
everything else are on sale. I would not be surprised that if I
do not order by the end of 2004 then this will not be available
after 1994 except on eBay.

I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
computers and printers if I am on the road?

So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
I had not considered.

Your comments, Ted, led me to eBay and to Chrysler where I find
many manuals cheaper than on eBay except for the shop manual. But
the 1994-1995 for the Voyager body diagnostic manual was only $13
(which is okay for my 1994, the eBay's 1993-1994 for $35 is what
the 1993 owner would have to get) and owner's manuals were $10
(eBay usually has these at least $10 or more so the same price or
a little more) and the "Superbook" for the notorious tranny A604
or 41TE is either $11 for my year or $17 for all years 1989-1998.
And one can even order the CD for $90, the shop manual. I was
suprised to see that it is offered for sale. And $41 more than
the hard copy, not bad.

And I was right about the 10 years. 1994 is the last year these
manuals, including also the Technical Service Bulletins and
everything else are on sale. I would not be surprised that if I
do not order by the end of 2004 then this will not be available
after 1994 except on eBay.

I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
computers and printers if I am on the road?

So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
I had not considered.

Treeline wrote:

> ...I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
> copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
> of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
> hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
> manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
> computers and printers if I am on the road?
>
> So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
> I had not considered.

There is one other option that I do not believe was mentioned: You can
get an on-line subscription at www.alldata.com for your specific
vehicle. It includes on-line, real-time access to information right out
of the FSM - schematics, procedures, and all. Plus it includes on-line
access to complete TSB's for your vehicle.

I can't say that the complete cover-to-cover FSM is accessible thru
alldata, but I can say that on the two vehicles that I have
subscriptions for (and one of which I also have the hard-copy DC FSM for
comparison), I have *never* found a section not there when I looked for
it (sometimes it has taken a few minutes to find the section I need -
it's not organized or categorized like the FSM is). I can say with
confidence that the schematics are all there - again, the ones right out
of the FSM - none of the "typical" (i.e., error-filled and useless) crap
that you find in aftermarket manuals.

This would have some of the downsides of the CD (as you mentioned,
there's something to be said for flipping thru a hard copy), but the
price is right, especially for a short- or intermediate-term need: $25
for first vehicle or first year. $15 for any additional vehicles or
annual renewals.

If interested, you would have to check if they go back to '94, but if
they do, this would be another option for you.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with alldata other than being a paying
customer. I have nothing to gain by recommending their products.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Treeline wrote:

> ...I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
> copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
> of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
> hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
> manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
> computers and printers if I am on the road?
>
> So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
> I had not considered.

There is one other option that I do not believe was mentioned: You can
get an on-line subscription at www.alldata.com for your specific
vehicle. It includes on-line, real-time access to information right out
of the FSM - schematics, procedures, and all. Plus it includes on-line
access to complete TSB's for your vehicle.

I can't say that the complete cover-to-cover FSM is accessible thru
alldata, but I can say that on the two vehicles that I have
subscriptions for (and one of which I also have the hard-copy DC FSM for
comparison), I have *never* found a section not there when I looked for
it (sometimes it has taken a few minutes to find the section I need -
it's not organized or categorized like the FSM is). I can say with
confidence that the schematics are all there - again, the ones right out
of the FSM - none of the "typical" (i.e., error-filled and useless) crap
that you find in aftermarket manuals.

This would have some of the downsides of the CD (as you mentioned,
there's something to be said for flipping thru a hard copy), but the
price is right, especially for a short- or intermediate-term need: $25
for first vehicle or first year. $15 for any additional vehicles or
annual renewals.

If interested, you would have to check if they go back to '94, but if
they do, this would be another option for you.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with alldata other than being a paying
customer. I have nothing to gain by recommending their products.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Treeline wrote:

> ...I wonder if I should buy the shop manual on CD and then make a
> copy for myself and then sell the original? Maybe get back half
> of what I paid for it. Don't know. I like thumbing through the
> hard back but having a CD and then what? Carry around a bulky
> manual that will get dog-eared or CD's and then have to find
> computers and printers if I am on the road?
>
> So again, thanks for your input, Ted, you led me to many sources
> I had not considered.

There is one other option that I do not believe was mentioned: You can
get an on-line subscription at www.alldata.com for your specific
vehicle. It includes on-line, real-time access to information right out
of the FSM - schematics, procedures, and all. Plus it includes on-line
access to complete TSB's for your vehicle.

I can't say that the complete cover-to-cover FSM is accessible thru
alldata, but I can say that on the two vehicles that I have
subscriptions for (and one of which I also have the hard-copy DC FSM for
comparison), I have *never* found a section not there when I looked for
it (sometimes it has taken a few minutes to find the section I need -
it's not organized or categorized like the FSM is). I can say with
confidence that the schematics are all there - again, the ones right out
of the FSM - none of the "typical" (i.e., error-filled and useless) crap
that you find in aftermarket manuals.

This would have some of the downsides of the CD (as you mentioned,
there's something to be said for flipping thru a hard copy), but the
price is right, especially for a short- or intermediate-term need: $25
for first vehicle or first year. $15 for any additional vehicles or
annual renewals.

If interested, you would have to check if they go back to '94, but if
they do, this would be another option for you.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with alldata other than being a paying
customer. I have nothing to gain by recommending their products.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---