NO CLICK - 73 Super Beetle

Well,

I'm stumped. I have a 73 super beetle as a project car. Lately it has
been tricky to start. I would turn the key and the starter would only
turn at times when I jiggled the key or held my eyebrow just right....
Then finally it quit altogether. Now I turn the key and get lights on
the dash, but turning it to the start position gives me nothing. No
click even. So this is what I have done:

Removed all connections and cleaned them. (Did'n trim the ends off of
the battery cables though)
Removed both ground straps and treated them with a baking soda slurry,
then wire brusehd and put them back on.
Replaced the starter (I have a brand new one waiting to go into another
project car - so it didn't cost me anything)
Replaced the ignition switch - (I had an old one that came out of a
rusted out 73 - also no cost)
Attempted to replace headlight switch - I got the wrong one - guess a
74 headlight switch is slightly different.

Is there a way to test if the headlight switch is the culprit before I
get a new one?
Are there other things I should try?

Any and all help appreciated.

Eric

E wrote:
> Well,
>
> I'm stumped. I have a 73 super beetle as a project car. Lately it has
> been tricky to start. I would turn the key and the starter would only
> turn at times when I jiggled the key or held my eyebrow just right....
> Then finally it quit altogether. Now I turn the key and get lights on
> the dash, but turning it to the start position gives me nothing. No
> click even. So this is what I have done:
>
> Removed all connections and cleaned them. (Did'n trim the ends off of
> the battery cables though)
> Removed both ground straps and treated them with a baking soda slurry,
> then wire brusehd and put them back on.
> Replaced the starter (I have a brand new one waiting to go into another
> project car - so it didn't cost me anything)
> Replaced the ignition switch - (I had an old one that came out of a
> rusted out 73 - also no cost)
> Attempted to replace headlight switch - I got the wrong one - guess a
> 74 headlight switch is slightly different.
>
> Is there a way to test if the headlight switch is the culprit before I
> get a new one?
> Are there other things I should try?
>
> Any and all help appreciated.
>
> Eric
>

Headlight sw doesn't affect starter.
But all Supers from '73 on used the same Rocker sw.

My bet: your "used" Ign sw is no good .

Try this test:
Lift rear seat.
On the left side, look for a plastic splice with
a Red wire and a Red/Blk joined.
Take a jumper wire and connect it from that splice to
battery (+) post. (Be sure shift is in Neutral!)

If the starter cranks over now, it's near 100% certain the
Ign sw is bad. Keep the jumper with you; if you leave
the key ON, the engine should start.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

E wrote:
> Well,
>
> I'm stumped. I have a 73 super beetle as a project car. Lately it has
> been tricky to start. I would turn the key and the starter would only
> turn at times when I jiggled the key or held my eyebrow just right....
> Then finally it quit altogether. Now I turn the key and get lights on
> the dash, but turning it to the start position gives me nothing. No
> click even. So this is what I have done:
>
> Removed all connections and cleaned them. (Did'n trim the ends off of
> the battery cables though)
> Removed both ground straps and treated them with a baking soda slurry,
> then wire brusehd and put them back on.
> Replaced the starter (I have a brand new one waiting to go into another
> project car - so it didn't cost me anything)
> Replaced the ignition switch - (I had an old one that came out of a
> rusted out 73 - also no cost)
> Attempted to replace headlight switch - I got the wrong one - guess a
> 74 headlight switch is slightly different.
>
> Is there a way to test if the headlight switch is the culprit before I
> get a new one?
> Are there other things I should try?
>
> Any and all help appreciated.
>
> Eric

I tried 2 rebuilt starters that I bought from a local VW shop
before I discovered the common Ford solenoid fix that
Berg documented some 30 years ago. The starter wiring
through the factory loom is barely adequate. When the VW
is new, there's enough "capacity" to drive the starter solenoid
hard enough to mesh the teeth and still engage the main motor
contacts. As the wiring ages, corrosion and dirty contacts
result in a voltage drop significant enough to render the starter
useless.

The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.

RT
--
E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net

> The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
> battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
> key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
> which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
> then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
> drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
> 6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
> 30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
> weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
>
> RT
> --
> E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
>
>


..............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......




>

Juper Wort wrote:

>>The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
>>battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
>>key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
>>which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
>>then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
>>drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
>>6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
>>30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
>>weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
>>
>>RT
>>--
>>E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
> .............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......


Good one! LOL
Jim

P.S. (As Juper knows) The solenoid draws 30-35 Amps on pull-in.

Speedy Jim wrote:
> Juper Wort wrote:
>
>>> The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
>>> battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
>>> key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
>>> which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
>>> then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
>>> drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
>>> 6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
>>> 30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
>>> weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
>>>
>>> RT
>>> --
>>> E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......
>
>
> Good one! LOL
> Jim
>
> P.S. (As Juper knows) The solenoid draws 30-35 Amps on pull-in.

It shouldn't draw that much unless the solenoid is sticking in which
case it's likely to never engage with original wiring from the dash.
I seem to recall the wires being on the small size, similiar to 16ga.
That couldn't pass half that current.

My relay has been working for years and this mode was a factory fix.

Here's a few good links including one showing the original Bosch
instructions;

www.oldvolkshome.com/hardstart.pdf

www.type2.com/bartnik/relay.htm


RT
--
E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net

Raymond T. Lowe wrote:
> Speedy Jim wrote:
>
>>Juper Wort wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
>>>>battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
>>>>key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
>>>>which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
>>>>then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
>>>>drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
>>>>6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
>>>>30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
>>>>weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
>>>>
>>>>RT
>>>>--
>>>>E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>.............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......
>>
>>
>> Good one! LOL
>>Jim
>>
>>P.S. (As Juper knows) The solenoid draws 30-35 Amps on pull-in.
>
>
> It shouldn't draw that much unless the solenoid is sticking in which
> case it's likely to never engage with original wiring from the dash.
> I seem to recall the wires being on the small size, similiar to 16ga.
> That couldn't pass half that current.
>
> My relay has been working for years and this mode was a factory fix.
>
> Here's a few good links including one showing the original Bosch
> instructions;
>
> www.oldvolkshome.com/hardstart.pdf
>
> www.type2.com/bartnik/relay.htm
>
>
> RT

Because of the tricky Bosch solenoid wiring, the "inrush"
current to get the solenoid moving *is* quite high.
But it only lasts until the big solenoid contacts close,
so #16 won't melt.

With the solenoid seated and the pinion engaged, a second,
much smaller diam winding in the solenoid keeps the
plunger "held in". The hold-in current is of the order
of 5-10 Amps.

It's the high inrush current that wipes out the Ign sw
contacts. They are so tiny that a lot of heating occurs
which soon melts the plastic holding the switch together.

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

"Speedy Jim" > wrote in message
om...
> Juper Wort wrote:
>
> >>The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
> >>battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
> >>key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
> >>which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
> >>then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
> >>drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
> >>6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
> >>30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
> >>weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
> >>
> >>RT
> >>--
> >>E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > .............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......
>
>
> Good one! LOL
> Jim
>
> P.S. (As Juper knows) The solenoid draws 30-35 Amps on pull-in.


Have had one running for a week now with a 30/40 amp relay, whatever that
means..... BG

I have an immobiliser fitted on ign & starter circuits, and lose quite a bit
of oomph in the black box, it seems. relay sorted it.

Yeah, I know you can get round them by diving under back seat etc, but I
hope to have a bit of frustration on miscreants part at least.

James

Speedy Jim wrote:
> Raymond T. Lowe wrote:
>> Speedy Jim wrote:
>>
>>> Juper Wort wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The fix is a simple solenoid wired into the circuit to provide
>>>>> battery voltage to the starter solenoid. When you turn the
>>>>> key to the start position, you are simply energizing the relay
>>>>> which need only a couple dozen milli-amps. The relay can
>>>>> then pass the full 12.6V and sufficient current to really
>>>>> drive the much heavier starter solenoid. These usually need
>>>>> 6-8 amps and any cheap little cube relay can supply up to
>>>>> 30 or 40 so they're plenty big enough. They also come in
>>>>> weatherproof versions - Delphi or Hella.
>>>>>
>>>>> RT
>>>>> --
>>>>> E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .............gets the fire extenguisher handy.......
>>>
>>>
>>> Good one! LOL
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> P.S. (As Juper knows) The solenoid draws 30-35 Amps on pull-in.
>>
>>
>> It shouldn't draw that much unless the solenoid is sticking in which
>> case it's likely to never engage with original wiring from the dash.
>> I seem to recall the wires being on the small size, similiar to 16ga.
>> That couldn't pass half that current.
>>
>> My relay has been working for years and this mode was a factory fix.
>>
>> Here's a few good links including one showing the original Bosch
>> instructions;
>>
>> www.oldvolkshome.com/hardstart.pdf
>>
>> www.type2.com/bartnik/relay.htm
>>
>>
>> RT
>
> Because of the tricky Bosch solenoid wiring, the "inrush"
> current to get the solenoid moving *is* quite high.
> But it only lasts until the big solenoid contacts close,
> so #16 won't melt.
>
> With the solenoid seated and the pinion engaged, a second,
> much smaller diam winding in the solenoid keeps the
> plunger "held in". The hold-in current is of the order
> of 5-10 Amps.
>
> It's the high inrush current that wipes out the Ign sw
> contacts. They are so tiny that a lot of heating occurs
> which soon melts the plastic holding the switch together.
>
> Speedy Jim
> http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Maybe that's why Berg recommended the Ford solenoid (which
looks like a miniture can) but I suspect it's cause they were
cheap and could handle the elements a little better. His article
dates back to the early 70's. Most cube relays can handle 40amp
spikes and I've seen some rated for 45. That's what the 30/40
rating on them means. We buy them by the 500 pack at work
(OEM part on class 8 trucks).


RT
--
E-mail=fullname,no initial-at-telus.net