1971 Alfa Spider 1750 - Front upper control arm locating washers...

Hi Folks,

A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
car.

....but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
- I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
front suspension when I stab the brakes.

Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?

Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!

Many Thanks!

SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider

(SteveC) wrote in message . com>...
> Hi Folks,
>
> A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
> 1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
> it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
> arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
> car.
>
> ...but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
> - I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
> pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
> fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
> such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
> front suspension when I stab the brakes.
>
> Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
> i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
> ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
> bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
> anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
> locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?
>
> Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!
>
> Many Thanks!
>
> SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider

Hi Steve,
Although I have not worked on the control arm in question, I looked up
my old manual and the locating washer you describe I'm sure, is to
keep the arm which adjusts the caster angle from moving up and down
with the bush retaining bolt. Without the washers the metal fork will
be hitting the metal on the control arm when you brake, thus giving
you the knocking sound.I think you will have to locate some new
washers, maybe at E.B.Spares, they stock all sorts for that car.
Hope this is of some use to you, & good luck.
John,UK.

On 28 Nov 2004 11:16:36 -0800, pee'd inna snow, the following:

(SteveC) wrote in message
. com>...
X:> Hi Folks,
X:>
X:> A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
X:> 1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
X:> it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
X:> arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
X:> car.
X:>
X:> ...but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
X:> - I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
X:> pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
X:> fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
X:> such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
X:> front suspension when I stab the brakes.
X:>
X:> Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
X:> i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
X:> ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
X:> bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
X:> anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
X:> locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?
X:>
X:> Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!
X:>
X:> Many Thanks!
X:>
X:> SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider
X:
X:Hi Steve,
X:Although I have not worked on the control arm in question, I looked up
X:my old manual and the locating washer you describe I'm sure, is to
X:keep the arm which adjusts the caster angle from moving up and down
X:with the bush retaining bolt. Without the washers the metal fork will
X:be hitting the metal on the control arm when you brake, thus giving
X:you the knocking sound.I think you will have to locate some new
X:washers, maybe at E.B.Spares, they stock all sorts for that car.
X:Hope this is of some use to you, & good luck.
X:John,UK.

Those "locating washers" are as scarce as hen's teeth here (US)... I have a set of adjustable upper
arms me old fella made for me three Alfa's ago (in '76), and cannot find those special li'l spacers
here anyplace. The old ones have had it on the nackered GTV, and the '78 Spider has none at all...
"klunk" on braking, and a geometry change (albiet slight) requiring a bit of steering input. Quite
annoying. If those thingies are plentiful in GB you've solved a nuisance for me! I've put off
redoing the front suspension due to this.

Dr E--
mhm 17x1

Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.

Dr Entropy wrote:

> On 28 Nov 2004 11:16:36 -0800, pee'd inna snow, the
> following:
>
> (SteveC) wrote in message
> . com>...
> X:> Hi Folks,
> X:>
> X:> A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
> X:> 1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
> X:> it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
> X:> arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
> X:> car.
> X:>
> X:> ...but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
> X:> - I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
> X:> pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
> X:> fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
> X:> such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
> X:> front suspension when I stab the brakes.
> X:>
> X:> Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
> X:> i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
> X:> ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
> X:> bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
> X:> anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
> X:> locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?
> X:>
> X:> Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!
> X:>
> X:> Many Thanks!
> X:>
> X:> SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider
> X:
> X:Hi Steve,
> X:Although I have not worked on the control arm in question, I looked up
> X:my old manual and the locating washer you describe I'm sure, is to
> X:keep the arm which adjusts the caster angle from moving up and down
> X:with the bush retaining bolt. Without the washers the metal fork will
> X:be hitting the metal on the control arm when you brake, thus giving
> X:you the knocking sound.I think you will have to locate some new
> X:washers, maybe at E.B.Spares, they stock all sorts for that car.
> X:Hope this is of some use to you, & good luck.
> X:John,UK.
>
> Those "locating washers" are as scarce as hen's teeth here (US)... I have
> a set of adjustable upper arms me old fella made for me three Alfa's ago
> (in '76), and cannot find those special li'l spacers here anyplace. The
> old ones have had it on the nackered GTV, and the '78 Spider has none at
> all... "klunk" on braking, and a geometry change (albiet slight) requiring
> a bit of steering input. Quite annoying. If those thingies are plentiful
> in GB you've solved a nuisance for me! I've put off redoing the front
> suspension due to this.

What exactly is this thing? Surely they cna be made up by some competent
engineer?
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Thanks Dr. E and John,UK for your replies...

Dr. E, I haven't actually started looking for these locating washers
yet, but I think your message is saying that you've been looking for
them for a while, with no success. I've been thinking that an Alfa
dismantler would have lots of upper conrol arms in their lot, and I
would be able to pillage the old locating washers from one of those
old arms. But you indicated that those in your GTV are shot, which
means many of those in the wrecking yards may also be shot. Sounds
like these might be tougher to find than I initially thought.

By the way, I also suffer from the geometry change, and I also get
suspension thunks when rolling over bumps in the road (not just
braking).

I'll respond to this thread if I end up getting these washers, or
coming up with some other solution such as pressing in a different
bushing or something).

SteveC (california) '71 Alfa Romeo 1750 spider

Dr Entropy > wrote in message >. ..
> On 28 Nov 2004 11:16:36 -0800, pee'd inna snow, the following:
>
> (SteveC) wrote in message
> . com>...
> X:> Hi Folks,
> X:>
> X:> A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
> X:> 1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
> X:> it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
> X:> arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
> X:> car.
> X:>
> X:> ...but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
> X:> - I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
> X:> pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
> X:> fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
> X:> such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
> X:> front suspension when I stab the brakes.
> X:>
> X:> Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
> X:> i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
> X:> ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
> X:> bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
> X:> anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
> X:> locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?
> X:>
> X:> Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!
> X:>
> X:> Many Thanks!
> X:>
> X:> SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider
> X:
> X:Hi Steve,
> X:Although I have not worked on the control arm in question, I looked up
> X:my old manual and the locating washer you describe I'm sure, is to
> X:keep the arm which adjusts the caster angle from moving up and down
> X:with the bush retaining bolt. Without the washers the metal fork will
> X:be hitting the metal on the control arm when you brake, thus giving
> X:you the knocking sound.I think you will have to locate some new
> X:washers, maybe at E.B.Spares, they stock all sorts for that car.
> X:Hope this is of some use to you, & good luck.
> X:John,UK.
>
> Those "locating washers" are as scarce as hen's teeth here (US)... I have a set of adjustable upper
> arms me old fella made for me three Alfa's ago (in '76), and cannot find those special li'l spacers
> here anyplace. The old ones have had it on the nackered GTV, and the '78 Spider has none at all...
> "klunk" on braking, and a geometry change (albiet slight) requiring a bit of steering input. Quite
> annoying. If those thingies are plentiful in GB you've solved a nuisance for me! I've put off
> redoing the front suspension due to this.
>
> Dr E--
> mhm 17x1
>
> Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.

Catman, I agree completely - a replacement locating washer can
probably be made pretty easily. But I haven't got an example of what
they even look like! (except for a small circle depicting this piece
in an expanded view of the front suspension - not enough detail from
which to build an appropriate replacement piece). I think that I'll
find one at a wrecking yard sometime soon, and if it's worn out, it
will still serve as a suitable example from which to build a piece...

Steve, California, 1971 Alfa Romeo Spider 1750 (with hard top)

Catman > wrote in message >...
> Dr Entropy wrote:
>
> > On 28 Nov 2004 11:16:36 -0800, pee'd inna snow, the
> > following:
> >
> > (SteveC) wrote in message
> > . com>...
> > X:> Hi Folks,
> > X:>
> > X:> A while ago, I replaced the upper control arms on my '71 Alfa Spider
> > X:> 1750. The arm I replaced incorporates the upper ball joint, but also
> > X:> it has a bushing near the ball joint to connect with the other upper
> > X:> arm (the locating arm?) which secures things towards the front of the
> > X:> car.
> > X:>
> > X:> ...but I suspect that my replacement upper control arms (they were new
> > X:> - I got the adjustable ones, what the heck?) didn't have all the
> > X:> pieces - that is, the manuals seem to refer to "locating washers" that
> > X:> fit with the bushing mount for the locating arm, but I don't have any
> > X:> such washers. After making the replacement, I now hear a thump in the
> > X:> front suspension when I stab the brakes.
> > X:>
> > X:> Of course (dang!) I quickly discarded the old control arms, and now
> > X:> i'm not sure if "locating washers" are supposed to be there. And so I
> > X:> ask: Is there some kind of "locating washer" that is needed with the
> > X:> bushing between the upper control arm and the upper locating arm? Has
> > X:> anybody also purchased new upper control arms and found that these
> > X:> locating washers (if there are supposed to be any) were not included?
> > X:>
> > X:> Your input on this is much appreciated indeed!
> > X:>
> > X:> Many Thanks!
> > X:>
> > X:> SteveC 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 Spider
> > X:
> > X:Hi Steve,
> > X:Although I have not worked on the control arm in question, I looked up
> > X:my old manual and the locating washer you describe I'm sure, is to
> > X:keep the arm which adjusts the caster angle from moving up and down
> > X:with the bush retaining bolt. Without the washers the metal fork will
> > X:be hitting the metal on the control arm when you brake, thus giving
> > X:you the knocking sound.I think you will have to locate some new
> > X:washers, maybe at E.B.Spares, they stock all sorts for that car.
> > X:Hope this is of some use to you, & good luck.
> > X:John,UK.
> >
> > Those "locating washers" are as scarce as hen's teeth here (US)... I have
> > a set of adjustable upper arms me old fella made for me three Alfa's ago
> > (in '76), and cannot find those special li'l spacers here anyplace. The
> > old ones have had it on the nackered GTV, and the '78 Spider has none at
> > all... "klunk" on braking, and a geometry change (albiet slight) requiring
> > a bit of steering input. Quite annoying. If those thingies are plentiful
> > in GB you've solved a nuisance for me! I've put off redoing the front
> > suspension due to this.
>
> What exactly is this thing? Surely they cna be made up by some competent
> engineer?

SteveC wrote:

> Catman, I agree completely - a replacement locating washer can
> probably be made pretty easily. But I haven't got an example of what
> they even look like! (except for a small circle depicting this piece
> in an expanded view of the front suspension - not enough detail from
> which to build an appropriate replacement piece). I think that I'll
> find one at a wrecking yard sometime soon, and if it's worn out, it
> will still serve as a suitable example from which to build a piece...
>
That would be cool. Dr E and I know each other from the early days of the
group, and I know a tame engineer.......

Let us know if we can help
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:58:13 GMT, Catman > pee'd inna snow, the
following:

X:SteveC wrote:
X:
X:> Catman, I agree completely - a replacement locating washer can
X:> probably be made pretty easily. But I haven't got an example of what
X:> they even look like! (except for a small circle depicting this piece
X:> in an expanded view of the front suspension - not enough detail from
X:> which to build an appropriate replacement piece). I think that I'll
X:> find one at a wrecking yard sometime soon, and if it's worn out, it
X:> will still serve as a suitable example from which to build a piece...
X:>
X:That would be cool. Dr E and I know each other from the early days of the
X:group, and I know a tame engineer.......
X:
X:Let us know if we can help

The particular "washer" of discussion was made of some synthetic... not sure what synth, but it was
definitely a hard molded polymer, not machined metal. It has a set of "protrusions" matching the
air spaces in the bushings to which it was "mated" top and bottom (offset 90° to one another IIRC).
I'm feverishly hunting thru my stash of bits to locate one in ANY condition. Devcon may have a
suitable material from which to "reman" 'em if we come up with a set of spec's and then a mold. Now
I'll not rest until this is well under way... I hate that *klunk*. And BTW: tightening the bolt to
the point of "pinching" the joint just transfers the shock to the front upper balljoint and mount
point, negating the effect of the bushing entirely.

Hey Catman... wasn't that the early days of actual ~usenet~ itself?!?!?!

meh-heh.

Dr E--
mhm 17x1

Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.

Dr Entropy wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:58:13 GMT, Catman >
> pee'd inna snow, the following:
>
> X:SteveC wrote:
> X:
> X:> Catman, I agree completely - a replacement locating washer can
> X:> probably be made pretty easily. But I haven't got an example of what
> X:> they even look like! (except for a small circle depicting this piece
> X:> in an expanded view of the front suspension - not enough detail from
> X:> which to build an appropriate replacement piece). I think that I'll
> X:> find one at a wrecking yard sometime soon, and if it's worn out, it
> X:> will still serve as a suitable example from which to build a piece...
> X:>
> X:That would be cool. Dr E and I know each other from the early days of
> the X:group, and I know a tame engineer.......
> X:
> X:Let us know if we can help
>
> The particular "washer" of discussion was made of some synthetic... not
> sure what synth, but it was definitely a hard molded polymer, not machined
> metal.

Any reason why it shouldn't be made of metal?

I'm also wondering if someone like E B Spares over here would carry them.

> It has a set of "protrusions" matching the air spaces in the
> bushings to which it was "mated" top and bottom (offset 90° to one another
> IIRC). I'm feverishly hunting thru my stash of bits to locate one in ANY
> condition. Devcon may have a suitable material from which to "reman" 'em
> if we come up with a set of spec's and then a mold. Now I'll not rest
> until this is well under way... I hate that *klunk*. And BTW: tightening
> the bolt to the point of "pinching" the joint just transfers the shock to
> the front upper balljoint and mount point, negating the effect of the
> bushing entirely.
>
> Hey Catman... wasn't that the early days of actual ~usenet~ itself?!?!?!
>
> meh-heh.

You're showing your age again


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:12:26 GMT, Catman > pee'd inna snow, the
following:

Xr Entropy wrote:
X:
X:> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:58:13 GMT, Catman >
X:> pee'd inna snow, the following:
X:>
X:> X:SteveC wrote:
X:> X:
X:> X:> Catman, I agree completely - a replacement locating washer can
X:> X:> probably be made pretty easily. But I haven't got an example of what
X:> X:> they even look like! (except for a small circle depicting this piece
X:> X:> in an expanded view of the front suspension - not enough detail from
X:> X:> which to build an appropriate replacement piece). I think that I'll
X:> X:> find one at a wrecking yard sometime soon, and if it's worn out, it
X:> X:> will still serve as a suitable example from which to build a piece...
X:> X:>
X:> X:That would be cool. Dr E and I know each other from the early days of
X:> the X:group, and I know a tame engineer.......
X:> X:
X:> X:Let us know if we can help
X:>
X:> The particular "washer" of discussion was made of some synthetic... not
X:> sure what synth, but it was definitely a hard molded polymer, not machined
X:> metal.
X:
X:Any reason why it shouldn't be made of metal?

Metal would defeat the purpose: it "locates" the thru bolt of the front link in the bushing without
metal to metal contact to transfer shock.
X:
X:I'm also wondering if someone like E B Spares over here would carry them.
X:
That would be convenient, but I found no mention of them on the website.

X:> It has a set of "protrusions" matching the air spaces in the
X:> bushings to which it was "mated" top and bottom (offset 90° to one another
X:> IIRC). I'm feverishly hunting thru my stash of bits to locate one in ANY
X:> condition. Devcon may have a suitable material from which to "reman" 'em
X:> if we come up with a set of spec's and then a mold. Now I'll not rest
X:> until this is well under way... I hate that *klunk*. And BTW: tightening
X:> the bolt to the point of "pinching" the joint just transfers the shock to
X:> the front upper balljoint and mount point, negating the effect of the
X:> bushing entirely.
X:>
X:> Hey Catman... wasn't that the early days of actual ~usenet~ itself?!?!?!
X:>
X:> meh-heh.
X:
X:You're showing your age again

hard to conceal! I've already admitted to 30 years of Alfa ownership ;-}

Dr E--
mhm 17x1

Linux: Load it, Learn it, Love it.