In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

Senator John Edwards, is that you?

Two examples, of how NOT to properly handle volatile fuels,
deleted for lack of relevance. LOL


mike hunt




Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
> fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
> result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps.

Senator John Edwards, is that you?

Two examples, of how NOT to properly handle volatile fuels,
deleted for lack of relevance. LOL


mike hunt




Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
> fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
> result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps.

Nomen Nescio wrote:

> ...Car manufacturers
> will do anything to avoid self lockers because of cost. Instead, auto
> engineers did their own work-around for plain fasteners. They specify
> torques at least 150% the maximum recommended by fastener torque tables.
> Check it out. Every important fastener on your car is overtightened and
> overstressed.

Without knowing the alloy and temper of the bolt, you can't know that.
Please provide a few examples of these too-high specified torques along
with what you know to be the grade of metal and recommended chart value
for that grade and thread diameter and pitch (and what the percent of
yield the chart values are based on).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Nomen Nescio wrote:

> ...Car manufacturers
> will do anything to avoid self lockers because of cost. Instead, auto
> engineers did their own work-around for plain fasteners. They specify
> torques at least 150% the maximum recommended by fastener torque tables.
> Check it out. Every important fastener on your car is overtightened and
> overstressed.

Without knowing the alloy and temper of the bolt, you can't know that.
Please provide a few examples of these too-high specified torques along
with what you know to be the grade of metal and recommended chart value
for that grade and thread diameter and pitch (and what the percent of
yield the chart values are based on).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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sure they do, alot of the newer chrysler products have them,,, im sure EPA
doesnt want those on the vehicles, it is hard enough just getting fuel
pressure sharader valves on most cars now, EPA screams enviroment!!!
"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> Have you all observed that not one automobile has a drain valve installed
> to the fuel tank? Obviously, a drain valve installed at the tank sump
> would safely allow the complete drainage of a fuel tank before
in-tank-fuel
> pump or fuel gauge sending unit servicing. To the drain valve, a length
of
> hose would be attached and led to one or more 5 gallon Jerry cans. Once
> drained, the fuel tanks are much safer to work on, although caution should
> still be exercised.
>
> Attempting to drain a fuel tank by disconnecting the fuel outlet hose and
> attaching a shop pump will drain all the usable fuel, but not all the
fuel.
> A gallon or more gasoline will be retained in the tank.
>
> Fuel tank drain valves have always been required on aircraft, but totally
> ignored for cars. They are useful for draining water and or other
> contaminants. I am sure that is a useful feature for mechanics trying to
> efficiently diagnose or correct a refractory fuel system problem.
>
> There may be a few objections to a drain valve, but there are workarounds.
> 1. Makes it easy to steal fuel. 2. Vandalism and arson. 3. Accidental
> collision damage to valve and resultant fuel leakage. 4. Leakage. 5.
Cost
> Workarounds are 1. build in key lock 2. build in key lock 3. Locate tank
> higher than low point of nearby structures 4. install screw cap as per
fuel
> injection rail shraeder valve. 5. cost is a non-issue for safety,
> particularly on $30,000 plus cars.
>
> A drainable fuel tank makes fuel pump servicing safer than presently;
> however, an external pump design is still much safer yet. One reader
> suggested that the mechanic wait until the fuel level is half or less --
> good luck if you fill your tank and 10 minutes later the pump quits. When
> the pump quits, the engine stops right now! Now, if you had a DUAL fuel
> pump system, you actually could run the fuel level down. I have addressed
> this issue befo dual pumps, automatic controls, and warning indicators
> when one fails.
>
> Think your car is advanced? There are four self-locking nuts on a
Wal-Mart
> shopping cart. They retain the casters. How many self-locking nuts are
on
> your $30,000 car. My car has none that I'm aware of. Car manufacturers
> will do anything to avoid self lockers because of cost. Instead, auto
> engineers did their own work-around for plain fasteners. They specify
> torques at least 150% the maximum recommended by fastener torque tables.
> Check it out. Every important fastener on your car is overtightened and
> overstressed.
>
>

sure they do, alot of the newer chrysler products have them,,, im sure EPA
doesnt want those on the vehicles, it is hard enough just getting fuel
pressure sharader valves on most cars now, EPA screams enviroment!!!
"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> Have you all observed that not one automobile has a drain valve installed
> to the fuel tank? Obviously, a drain valve installed at the tank sump
> would safely allow the complete drainage of a fuel tank before
in-tank-fuel
> pump or fuel gauge sending unit servicing. To the drain valve, a length
of
> hose would be attached and led to one or more 5 gallon Jerry cans. Once
> drained, the fuel tanks are much safer to work on, although caution should
> still be exercised.
>
> Attempting to drain a fuel tank by disconnecting the fuel outlet hose and
> attaching a shop pump will drain all the usable fuel, but not all the
fuel.
> A gallon or more gasoline will be retained in the tank.
>
> Fuel tank drain valves have always been required on aircraft, but totally
> ignored for cars. They are useful for draining water and or other
> contaminants. I am sure that is a useful feature for mechanics trying to
> efficiently diagnose or correct a refractory fuel system problem.
>
> There may be a few objections to a drain valve, but there are workarounds.
> 1. Makes it easy to steal fuel. 2. Vandalism and arson. 3. Accidental
> collision damage to valve and resultant fuel leakage. 4. Leakage. 5.
Cost
> Workarounds are 1. build in key lock 2. build in key lock 3. Locate tank
> higher than low point of nearby structures 4. install screw cap as per
fuel
> injection rail shraeder valve. 5. cost is a non-issue for safety,
> particularly on $30,000 plus cars.
>
> A drainable fuel tank makes fuel pump servicing safer than presently;
> however, an external pump design is still much safer yet. One reader
> suggested that the mechanic wait until the fuel level is half or less --
> good luck if you fill your tank and 10 minutes later the pump quits. When
> the pump quits, the engine stops right now! Now, if you had a DUAL fuel
> pump system, you actually could run the fuel level down. I have addressed
> this issue befo dual pumps, automatic controls, and warning indicators
> when one fails.
>
> Think your car is advanced? There are four self-locking nuts on a
Wal-Mart
> shopping cart. They retain the casters. How many self-locking nuts are
on
> your $30,000 car. My car has none that I'm aware of. Car manufacturers
> will do anything to avoid self lockers because of cost. Instead, auto
> engineers did their own work-around for plain fasteners. They specify
> torques at least 150% the maximum recommended by fastener torque tables.
> Check it out. Every important fastener on your car is overtightened and
> overstressed.
>
>

Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical,
engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By
being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible
mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were
outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater
probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a
fuel leak. OK?


mike hunt



Al Smith wrote:
>

> By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
> understand
> why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
> aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
> as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
> tank.
>

Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical,
engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By
being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible
mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were
outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater
probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a
fuel leak. OK?


mike hunt



Al Smith wrote:
>

> By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
> understand
> why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
> aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
> as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
> tank.
>

Bill Putney wrote:

> Without knowing the alloy and temper of the bolt, you can't know that.
> Please provide a few examples of these too-high specified torques along
> with what you know to be the grade of metal and recommended chart value
> for that grade and thread diameter and pitch (and what the percent of
> yield the chart values are based on).

p.s. - Torque-to-yield head bolts are a special case and don't count.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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Bill Putney wrote:

> Without knowing the alloy and temper of the bolt, you can't know that.
> Please provide a few examples of these too-high specified torques along
> with what you know to be the grade of metal and recommended chart value
> for that grade and thread diameter and pitch (and what the percent of
> yield the chart values are based on).

p.s. - Torque-to-yield head bolts are a special case and don't count.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


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---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---