In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
for these two incidents?

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News


Thursday, October 28, 2004 -


Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
for these two incidents?

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News


Thursday, October 28, 2004 -


Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

Fishing troll.
"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News


Thursday, October 28, 2004 -


Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
...
> Fishing troll.
> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
> ...
> A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day,

<<Snippage>>

No shiite.

Lessee...if we all gave up cars we could save 45,000 lives a year, no wait,
we'd also have to give up transportation of medicines too...so maybe we'd
have a net savings of 22,000 lives a year...ooops, death by horse
accidents...ok, we save 11,000 lives a year...but those 11,000 starve
because there's no way to transport the food from farm to market.

Ok, let's all just commit suicide now and save everyone the bother of
living.

You play the game you take your chances...

The world was made with corners and no amount of doo-doo-gooder wishful
thinking is going to change this from a zero sum game. Carpe diem...or get
out of the way and stop trying to save me from myself.

Cripes.

Richard

"Thomas Moats" > wrote in message
...
> Fishing troll.
> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
> ...
> A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day,

<<Snippage>>

No shiite.

Lessee...if we all gave up cars we could save 45,000 lives a year, no wait,
we'd also have to give up transportation of medicines too...so maybe we'd
have a net savings of 22,000 lives a year...ooops, death by horse
accidents...ok, we save 11,000 lives a year...but those 11,000 starve
because there's no way to transport the food from farm to market.

Ok, let's all just commit suicide now and save everyone the bother of
living.

You play the game you take your chances...

The world was made with corners and no amount of doo-doo-gooder wishful
thinking is going to change this from a zero sum game. Carpe diem...or get
out of the way and stop trying to save me from myself.

Cripes.

Richard

"Silver Surfer" > wrote in message
news:Mrfgd.327682$3l3.233758@attbi_s03...
> Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
> for these two incidents?
>

Might be.

Story 1

First the disclaimer. I could be wrong, but . . .

Every in-tank fuel pump I know of requires that the tank be
removed from the vehicle. Perhaps they tried to sleaze-repair
by not draining the tank. Or maybe they substantially drained
the tank, but not completely. If the pump were external as has
been conventional for decades, the tank wouldn't have to be
drained and removed to safely remove the fuel pump.

Story 2

"Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze."

Kind of self-explanatory, isn't it?

By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
understand
why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
tank.

Possible reason - Increases cost of repair?






> "Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
> ...
> A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
> fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
> result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
> placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70
years,
> these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
> address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well
as
> amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
> configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
> manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
> cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
> least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
> mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
> will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
> hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
> titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
>
> News Story One:
>
> Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
>
> Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
>
> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
> DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline
spilled
> out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
> fumes, investigators said.
>
> David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
> more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
> examiner's office said.
>
> Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
> truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
> the truck out of a detached garage.
>
> All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
> collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
>
> News Story Two:
>
> Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
> By Virgil Cochran
> Lamar Daily News
>
>
> Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
>
>
> Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
> midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
> will be up and running again in just a few days.
>
> Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
> began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
> the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed
an
> electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
>
> It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
> get out safely, Travis said.
>
> Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
> week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
> the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
> customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
> the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
> are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
>
> Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
> its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop
functions
> of the business are up and running.
>
> Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage
itself
> was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage
to
> the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
> damage.
>
> Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday,
and
> the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
> Holly Fire Departments.
>
> As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured
and
> that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
>
>
>

Al Smith wrote:


> By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
> understand
> why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
> aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
> as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
> tank.

Simple: To increase integration and reduce costs. The auto mfgrs.
prefer to buy fewer total assemblies from suppliers to cut down on costs
such as separate handling, installation, shipping, purchase contracts,
parallel paper trails, tracking systems, project managers, installation
effort, etc. By putting the fuel pump with the "sending" unit, the fuel
pump and gage sender (and, in the case of the LH cars, the fuel filter)
get incorporated into one purchased "part".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

An educated guess - adding to your clearly educated response - no
sarcasm, so don't get ****ed...

Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not
insignificantly, to increase book-billed labor charges and replacement
costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty,
this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are
specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how to
test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly trained
techs use this to their advantage like many other things, simply billing
"book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on the customer's
ignorance.

While replacing a heater core, and heater hoses while they were at it,
which I completely agreed with, a shop tried to bill me $120 in labor to
change the thermostat. I told them to put it back together, fill it,
and then expect legal trouble, or to do it as part of the job, and just
bill me for the part. Knowing I'd caught them in a lie in January,
while I was at work downtown when it was zero degrees outside, they shut
up and acquiesced, albeit begrudingly. I laughed, and asked repeatedly
why I could do something in 10 min., by itself, that would take them 1.5
hours with everything already aparts. They had no answer. I had the
facts, prices and diagrams right in front of me as well. It wasn't
worth it to them. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a businessman. It was all
about cost / benefit in this case. I never have gone back to them (a
major repair franchise, I might add).

In their defense, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes,
because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and techs
use book time to make money on flat-rate labor. Techs and shops alike
continually look for common, high-book-time gems with which to bilk
their customers and reap profits.

Sadly, few people have time to, care to, or can, feasibly, dig into
these problems themselves, which is why this system has proven so
successful.

The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie
tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to work
on new cars. Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for their
valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires themselves,
or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an honest, good
profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100% markups on parts
and book-billed labor.

Ok, so many of you know all of this, and are saying "so what". I'm just
throwing this out there on my own time, having seen both sides, and I'm
just trying to share experience...

FWIW... a little homework goes a long way, if not done anywhere but from
Google and a $20 repair manual...

Bill Putney wrote:
> Al Smith wrote:
>
>
>> By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
>> understand
>> why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
>> aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
>> as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
>> tank.
>
>
> Simple: To increase integration and reduce costs. The auto mfgrs.
> prefer to buy fewer total assemblies from suppliers to cut down on costs
> such as separate handling, installation, shipping, purchase contracts,
> parallel paper trails, tracking systems, project managers, installation
> effort, etc. By putting the fuel pump with the "sending" unit, the fuel
> pump and gage sender (and, in the case of the LH cars, the fuel filter)
> get incorporated into one purchased "part".
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> adddress with the letter 'x')
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
> Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Wound Up wrote:

> Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not
> insignificantly, to increase book-billed labour charges and replacement
> costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty,
> this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are
> specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how
> to test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly
> trained techs use this to their advantage like many other things,
> simply billing "book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on
> the customer's ignorance.

This shows your lack of knowledge about the times required
to replace in tank fuel pumps and the older on-engine fuel pumps.
For someone who knows what they are doing (like myself), there
is very little difference in labour time needed to change an in-tank
fuel pump as opposed to the older on-engine fuel pumps. And as
far as "reality"....the trained tech has already taken his lumps on
the warranty side of things (low times) and has become extremely
efficient at doing the job by the time it becomes a "customer pay"
job. Who are you to pass judgement on them.....come and walk
in their shoes for a mile or two and then you will know what
flat rate is all about.

> In their defence, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes,
> because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and
> techs use book time to make money on flat-rate labour. Techs and
> shops alike continually look for common, high-book-time gems with
> which to bilk their customers and reap profits.

This may be true in a certain percentage of labour operations,
but most operations, "you" as the owner, could not come close
to doing it in the time allowed by the book. You might be able
to beat the time on a thermostat, but if you were working on vehicles
all day long, you'd lose your ass. I'd extend a challenge to anyone
who isn't a professional technician to come on in and work with me
for a week. It'll be an eye opener both ways....you will see the jobs
that I make tons of time on, and you will see the jobs that waste my
time. It usually works out to about 140% efficiency overall. And you
would learn why I'm worth that.

> The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie
> tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to
> work on new cars.

Good god....whoever spends that kind of money to get started in this
trade is a lunatic. Or has some sort of "tool fetish". I've seen those
types
of technicians. Lot's of shiny tools, but have no clue what to do with
them.

> Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for
> their valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires
> themselves, or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an
> honest, good profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100%
> markups on parts and book-billed labour.

Too many fail or quit, because they imagine that they can be making
80 grand in five years. It doesn't work that way....it takes a lot of
time and experience to become a good, honest, flat rate mechanic.
I laugh at the young guys in our shop that think they should be making
14 hrs a day. It certainly won't happen if they take an hour in the morning
to "get going"...and spend another hour or two a day outside smoking and
bull****ting with everyone. You gotta work hard in this trade if you want
to make good money. And you "can" make good money.

Ian

"shiden_kai" > wrote in message
news:_TAgd.57890$nl.34438@pd7tw3no...
> Wound Up wrote:
>
> > Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not
> > insignificantly, to increase book-billed labour charges and replacement
> > costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty,
> > this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are
> > specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how
> > to test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly
> > trained techs use this to their advantage like many other things,
> > simply billing "book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on
> > the customer's ignorance.
>
> This shows your lack of knowledge about the times required
> to replace in tank fuel pumps and the older on-engine fuel pumps.
> For someone who knows what they are doing (like myself), there
> is very little difference in labour time needed to change an in-tank
> fuel pump as opposed to the older on-engine fuel pumps.

Wait a minute. Maybe there are shortcuts in some cases - and I have only
done
it once - but every fuel pump replacement I have heard about
involves dropping the tank.

e. g.
http://popularmechanics.com/automoti...place_intank_f
uel_pump/

There is no way dropping the tank can be compared to disconnecting
two fuel lines and unplugging the electric plug.

And as
> far as "reality"....the trained tech has already taken his lumps on
> the warranty side of things (low times) and has become extremely
> efficient at doing the job by the time it becomes a "customer pay"
> job. Who are you to pass judgement on them.....come and walk
> in their shoes for a mile or two and then you will know what
> flat rate is all about.
>
> > In their defence, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes,
> > because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and
> > techs use book time to make money on flat-rate labour. Techs and
> > shops alike continually look for common, high-book-time gems with
> > which to bilk their customers and reap profits.
>
> This may be true in a certain percentage of labour operations,
> but most operations, "you" as the owner, could not come close
> to doing it in the time allowed by the book. You might be able
> to beat the time on a thermostat, but if you were working on vehicles
> all day long, you'd lose your ass. I'd extend a challenge to anyone
> who isn't a professional technician to come on in and work with me
> for a week. It'll be an eye opener both ways....you will see the jobs
> that I make tons of time on, and you will see the jobs that waste my
> time. It usually works out to about 140% efficiency overall. And you
> would learn why I'm worth that.
>
> > The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie
> > tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to
> > work on new cars.
>
> Good god....whoever spends that kind of money to get started in this
> trade is a lunatic. Or has some sort of "tool fetish". I've seen those
> types
> of technicians. Lot's of shiny tools, but have no clue what to do with
> them.
>
> > Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for
> > their valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires
> > themselves, or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an
> > honest, good profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100%
> > markups on parts and book-billed labour.
>
> Too many fail or quit, because they imagine that they can be making
> 80 grand in five years. It doesn't work that way....it takes a lot of
> time and experience to become a good, honest, flat rate mechanic.
> I laugh at the young guys in our shop that think they should be making
> 14 hrs a day. It certainly won't happen if they take an hour in the
morning
> to "get going"...and spend another hour or two a day outside smoking and
> bull****ting with everyone. You gotta work hard in this trade if you want
> to make good money. And you "can" make good money.
>
> Ian
>
>