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#1
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
I have a '93 SL1 with 145k miles. It seems to have a worsening problem
with hesitation when going between 25-40 mph (2nd/3rd gear? it's automatic transmission), and feels like it could stall. Yesterday was noticeably bad, so I revved it up while idling and it has a regular rhythmic hesitation between about 1800 and 3000 rpm. I changed the oil, which was extremely black and dirty (it takes 5W30 which is very light-colored, haven't been changing as frequently as I should, it had been about 4 months with low miles). More disturbing was this thick cream-consistency light brown crud all over the inside of the oil cap and around the cap hole, but couldn't see further down than that. I had never seen anything like that before, almost like dirty foamed oil. The hesitation seemed to disappear immediately after the oil change, but this morning it's back again when revving in idle, not quite as bad as yesterday yet. Other than changing the spark plugs and dumping some fuel injection fluid, any other suggestions? Does a regular hesitation suggest something in particular? By the way, it's also had a 'check engine light' come on with code 32 only (quad driver module, no code 28) but only when going 65 mph or higher, which I very rarely have an opportunity to do anymore. I haven't seen the light in months... |
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#2
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
The code 32 is a defective EGR. It should be replaced. A fairly simple 30
minute job if you have metric sockets and are mechanically inclined. The brown crud on the inside of the oil cap is probably condensation/water that has mixed with the oil. You need to keep your eye on this since it could be early sign of a head gasket problem. How did the oil that you drained look? Did it too have water in it as well? When was the vehicle last tuned with new plugs? Are they correctly gapped? Have you removed them to see if they are oil or carbon fouled? When were your wires last changed? Post what you eventually learn and good luck. Bob > wrote in message ups.com... > I have a '93 SL1 with 145k miles. Yesterday was > noticeably bad, so I revved it up while idling and it has a regular > rhythmic hesitation between about 1800 and 3000 rpm. I changed the > oil, which was extremely black and dirty (it takes 5W30 which is very > light-colored, haven't been changing as frequently as I should, it had > been about 4 months with low miles). More disturbing was this thick > cream-consistency light brown crud all over the inside of the oil cap > and around the cap hole, but couldn't see further down than that. I > had never seen anything like that before, almost like dirty foamed oil. > > Other than changing the spark plugs and dumping some fuel injection > fluid, any other suggestions? Does a regular hesitation suggest > something in particular? > > By the way, it's also had a 'check engine light' come on with code 32 > only (quad driver module, no code 28) but only when going 65 mph or > higher, which I very rarely have an opportunity to do anymore. I > haven't seen the light in months... |
#3
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
Wait...I think I have those code numbers reversed in my head...the code
was NOT the EGR valve code, it was whatever the one was for quad driver module. It looks like EGR valve normally requires the combination of 28 and 32, this was just 28. The car was bought used in 2000 with 94k and I've never had the car tuned, so when it last had anything done with the spark plugs is a mystery to me. I actually don't know how to remove the plugs, we tried pulling on them since that's how they pop out in my husband's car (his car's manual actually tells you how to do this!), but they wouldn't budge, and we were afraid to bust something. It's run so reliably, I guess I've just been waiting for something bad to start happening before getting anything done other than oil changes (I know...bad idea, but I buy cheap used junk cars, if it makes it 5 years then I'm already ahead...) I didn't see any evidence of water in the drained oil, but could have missed it. I definitely wouldn't have seen a small amount of water emulsified in the blackness. Is there anything you can do to remove water from the engine? The first thing I thought when seeing the brown cream was a head gasket leak, but there isn't really any other evidence of this, at least no excessive white smoke. I did have to add some coolant for the first time ever recently (it probably badly needs a coolant flush, add that to the list) fairly recently after the add coolant light flashed at me. It was pretty full but not quite to the fill bar. But still, this was the first time in 5 years that there was a change in the level. Before refilling, the car had almost overheated in traffic. The gauge always goes just above the mark before the red zone before the fan kicks in, and this is normal operating temperature, however this time it went further than I ever saw it go before, seemed like the fan couldn't keep up. Since starting a new job right down the street from where I live, it's hard to get in enough driving in this traffic-clogged area to follow-up on or reproduce problems, and it's now a lot colder outside. |
#4
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
From your response, I think it would be best to take the vehicle to a
trusted service center/garage and have it tuned up, replace the plugs, wires, gas filter, air filter, PCV, and thoroughly clean the throttle body. Techron fuel injector cleaner in the tank wouldn't hurt either ... And then see what happens with the hesitation and codes. I'd bet this is a fouled plug or bad wire. The coolant is supposed to be flushed and changed every two years. You are long overdue. These engines are temperamental to overheating and the corrosion additives only last 24 months or so ... you obviously don't take care of your vehicle ... so bad things will happen and you are living on borrowed time. By the way, if you have an automatic transmission, that too needs an occasional drain, filter and oil change. I'd suggest doing that every 30K miles. On the EGR, if it is still original, consider yourself lucky ... it is probably bad as well. I'd also strongly suggest you keep an eye on the oil and coolant levels to make sure you have not blown the head gasket or cracked the head when it "came close to overheating". (It probably did overheat ... keep in mid the gauge will not read accurately if you don't have enough coolant.) The mechanic can do a compression test, but this will not guarantee finding a coolant to oil passage leak. Good luck. Bob > wrote in message ups.com... > The car was bought used in 2000 with 94k and I've never had the car > tuned, so when it last had anything done with the spark plugs is a > mystery to me. I actually don't know how to remove the plugs, we tried > pulling on them since that's how they pop out in my husband's car (his > car's manual actually tells you how to do this!), but they wouldn't > budge, and we were afraid to bust something. It's run so reliably, I > guess I've just been waiting for something bad to start happening > before getting anything done other than oil changes (I know...bad idea, > but I buy cheap used junk cars, if it makes it 5 years then I'm already > ahead...) > I didn't see any evidence of water in the drained oil, but could have > missed it. I definitely wouldn't have seen a small amount of water > emulsified in the blackness. Is there anything you can do to remove > water from the engine? The first thing I thought when seeing the brown > cream was a head gasket leak, but there isn't really any other evidence > of this, at least no excessive white smoke. I did have to add some > coolant for the first time ever recently (it probably badly needs a > coolant flush, add that to the list) fairly recently after the add > coolant light flashed at me. It was pretty full but not quite to the > fill bar. But still, this was the first time in 5 years that there was > a change in the level. Before refilling, the car had almost overheated > in traffic. The gauge always goes just above the mark before the red > zone before the fan kicks in, and this is normal operating temperature, > however this time it went further than I ever saw it go before, seemed > like the fan couldn't keep up. Since starting a new job right down the > street from where I live, it's hard to get in enough driving in this > traffic-clogged area to follow-up on or reproduce problems, and it's > now a lot colder outside. |
#5
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
> From your response, I think it would be best to take the vehicle to a > trusted service center/garage and have it tuned up, replace the plugs, > wires, gas filter, air filter, PCV, and thoroughly clean the throttle body. > Techron fuel injector cleaner in the tank wouldn't hurt either ... And then > see what happens with the hesitation and codes. I'd bet this is a fouled > plug or bad wire. I'm going to have it looked at on Friday by a good mechanic (aka not at dealership). Crossing my fingers it's something to do with the plugs. It's really had this almost unnoticeable slight hesitation going about 30-40 mph for quite a long time, but suddenly it's hesitating and lunging (today felt like it was going to stall out again) much worse. > The coolant is supposed to be flushed and changed every two years. You are > long overdue. These engines are temperamental to overheating and the > corrosion additives only last 24 months or so ... you obviously don't take > care of your vehicle ... so bad things will happen and you are living on > borrowed time. By the way, if you have an automatic transmission, that too > needs an occasional drain, filter and oil change. I'd suggest doing that > every 30K miles. Yeah, with this new dose of fear I'll definitely get it done. The coolant has stayed amazingly clean looking all these years though. Transmission flush has also been on the list, this stuff adds up $$$. The engine temp gauge on these things is weird, there must be a really fine line between "normal" temperature (and a mechanic verified the engine temperature was well within operating range while the gauge read above the white mark just before red, on any other car this would indicate the verge of disaster) and overheating. > On the EGR, if it is still original, consider yourself lucky ... it is > probably bad as well. I got the EGR valve replaced the first week I had the car at 94k miles, so I'm just taking a guess that it's not the second one to go. > I'd also strongly suggest you keep an eye on the oil and coolant levels to > make sure you have not blown the head gasket or cracked the head when it > "came close to overheating". (It probably did overheat ... keep in mid the > gauge will not read accurately if you don't have enough coolant.) The > mechanic can do a compression test, but this will not guarantee finding a > coolant to oil passage leak. I'm really concerned reading about the light brown gunk in the oil cap. There was no sign of this coloration on the dipstick before or after the oil change, so far I've only seen it in and around the cap area. It's driven on really short trips almost exclusively lately, so I'm hoping this is just condensation causing an oil/water emulsion around the cap without the ability to boil off, since the engine rarely warms up. It had been unusually bitter cold most of this month. I can't detect any sign of glycol smell in the engine, but if it's still a tiny leak without noticeable change in coolant level, you wouldn't expect to smell it anyway. At any rate, if it's a gasket leak, hopefully this is still early sign and not too much damage has been done. My 87 Nova made it nearly 6 years after a bad blown head gasket (plumes of white smoke out the exhaust, car not starting) before the engine died on the interstate, which was probably due to a bad job with the gasket seal. It was having weird problems for months with overheating and coolant literally erupting out of the overflow tank while the radiator was empty. Blew $1200 on that and nothing fixed it (thanks Chevy dealer!). None of that with the Saturn yet... Thanks for your suggestions. |
#6
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
The brown "sludge" you are seeing is just condensation coming to a rest up
there. It is normal if the car doesnt reach operating temperature often. Aka you make alot of short trips with it. Your hesitation sounds like a bad plug and wire. Have it checked it out. Your code is probably 26, Quad driver fault, which is often the EGR control solenoid, but could be the purge solenoid. And about the temp gauge, it is normal operation for the fan to come on at the 3/4 mark on saturns from 91-94. They changed the operation in 95 due to scared customers. It then is normal operation to be around halfway when fans come on.... Hope it helps.... I see saturns everyday! |
#7
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
> The brown "sludge" you are seeing is just condensation coming to a rest up > there. It is normal if the car doesnt reach operating temperature often. > Aka you make alot of short trips with it. That's definitely what I want to hear and what makes sense, but I have a friend who insists it's minor head gasket leaking. I'll let the mechanic decide. > Your hesitation sounds like a bad plug and wire. Have it checked it out. Really hoping that's all it is, or else no New Year's Eve party for me. > Your code is probably 26, Quad driver fault, which is often the EGR > control solenoid, but could be the purge solenoid. Yeah, that's it...I took a guess it was the canister purge solenoid out of the 4 possible options, since the coolant fan was working and there was no EGR fault code. No idea what that is, supposedly a cheap part that's impossible to get to. I haven't even seen the light come on for months, since it requires speeding on an interstate before it comes on (only above 60-65 mph). Usually you have to make it up to 70-75 mph before it firsts come on, and it fades out when you slow down below 65 (maybe this is the cops' new trick). > And about the temp gauge, it is normal operation for the fan to come on at > the 3/4 mark on saturns from 91-94. They changed the operation in 95 due to > scared customers. It then is normal operation to be around halfway when > fans come on.... I was fine with it once a mechanic told me this was normal. It seems like the fan has been kicking in higher and higher up the gauge, it used to kick it precisely on the 3/4 mark, then it started a little above the 3/4 mark. And this last time when the engine almost or did overheat, it was at the verge of red before it kicked in. I was ready to turn off the car and leave it on the side of the road. Maybe this was just evidence of the dropping coolant level? You'd think that'd be independent of the temp gauge and electronics controlling the fan. It'll get hotter with less coolant but the fan should still kick in at the programmed temp, right? Maybe this gauge is not as sophisticated as a thermocouple...or is there another sensor independent of the gauge that kicks the fan on? That would be the only thing that makes sense, but I shudder as a chemical engineer... > Hope it helps.... I see saturns everyday! Thanks for your suggestions! |
#8
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
>Yeah, that's it...I took a guess it was the canister purge solenoid out
>Yeah, that's it...I took a guess it was the canister purge solenoid out >of the 4 possible options, since the coolant fan was working and there >was no EGR fault code. No idea what that is, supposedly a cheap part Well, mine cost me about 50 bux Canadian at a dealership. Replaced it, ran OK for a while and I'm still getting code 26. However, it only happens in the fall and spring....go figure. I'm guessing it has something to do with a bad connection between the PCM and the solenoid. >that's impossible to get to. I haven't even seen the light come on for Don't bother with the purge canister solenoid. It only gets activated when your car is idling and it closes when the car is in motion. It has nothing to do with your car's hesitation. I would look at the EGR solenoid instead and make sure it opens up when the car is moving. >I was fine with it once a mechanic told me this was normal. It seems >like the fan has been kicking in higher and higher up the gauge, it >used to kick it precisely on the 3/4 mark, then it started a little >above the 3/4 mark. And this last time when the engine almost or did >overheat, it was at the verge of red before it kicked in. I was ready Do you have A/C in your car? If you're really concerned about the fan not kicking early enough, switch your A/C for a couple of minutes. The fan will come on automatically and will stay on for few minutes after you switch A/C off. >to turn off the car and leave it on the side of the road. Maybe this >was just evidence of the dropping coolant level? There is an idiot light on your dash informing you that your coolant is low. >You'd think that'd be >independent of the temp gauge and electronics controlling the fan. I'm pretty sure it is. There are two temp sensors in your car, one sends the information to your front dash, while the other sends the information to the PCM. The PCM then decides on the mixture, fan on/off commands, etc. >It'll get hotter with less coolant but the fan should still kick in at >the programmed temp, right? Maybe this gauge is not as sophisticated >as a thermocouple...or is there another sensor independent of the gauge >that kicks the fan on? Oops....I should have read the whole thing. as per above.... yes good luck! Alex |
#9
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
> wrote in message ups.com... > It seems > like the fan has been kicking in higher and higher up the gauge, it > used to kick it precisely on the 3/4 mark, then it started a little > above the 3/4 mark. And this last time when the engine almost or did > overheat, it was at the verge of red before it kicked in. I was ready > to turn off the car and leave it on the side of the road. If it makes you nervous, you can always force the fan in by turning on the A/C for a few seconds, then shut it off. This will trigger the fan to engage and it'll shut off automatically (as normal) when it reaches the low temp. Scott |
#10
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rhythmic hesitation in '93 SL1
Nope no AC, the compressor was busted when I bought it, and it didn't
seem worth it at the time to get it replaced (the longer the car lasts, the more I wish I replaced it at the start). I've really, really regretted this in 2 hour traffic jams in my former commute, next to fuming tractor trailers, in 98 degree humidity here in DC area. The coolant light flashed at me for a split second before this incident, and for several seconds after the overheating incident. It was below the fill bar but not by a whole lot. Hopefully that explains the overheating, knowing there's a separate sensor. |
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